I'm not happy with BMW's direction for the next generation - What is an alternative?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Porsche does give you the first service free and are you know what you are getting into when you enter their world. Porsches doesn’t subsidize and financially engineer leases like BMW does (inflated residuals and low money factors). Usually Porsche has strong residuals but high money factor (like 7-8% APR).
BMWs free maintenance has deviated quite a bit from what it used to be.

So not only do they gouge their customers on common options they do it as well with theirMF on leases? Nice company.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by minn19

So not only do they gouge their customers on common options they do it as well with theirMF on leases? Nice company.

It is a big turn off. The cars are good but they're not that good.

I would only consider pre-owned. Let's be honest most of the dudes that buy these cars are getting up there in years. I would wager that a majority of used Porsche's haven't seen triple digit speeds let alone track time.

I'm all over the place thinking about my next car. Wife wants to kill me

Edit: I WONT be getting anything with buck tooth grilles that is fo sure

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

It is a big turn off. The cars are good but they're not that good.

I would only consider pre-owned. Let's be honest most of the dudes that buy these cars are getting up there in years. I would wager that a majority of used Porsche's haven't seen triple digit speeds let alone track time.

I'm all over the place thinking about my next car. Wife wants to kill me

Edit: I WONT be getting anything with buck tooth grilles that is fo sure

I thought I read somewhere that 50% of Porsche GT cars are tracked and based on these forums less than 10% of m cars are. Let’s not get too carried away with stereotyping.

There’s no perfect car. And you’ll want something else no matter what you get.

Just pick something you want to try, that won’t lose as much value, and go for it.

My $0.02, get a 997 gt3, try it for a while, resell. Maybe you will or won’t get back what you bought it for, but it shouldn’t depreciate much, unless you stuff it

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by minn19

So not only do they gouge their customers on common options they do it as well with theirMF on leases? Nice company.

In short, yes. Not really much to dispute there. The thing is, despite that, they are still setting record sales every year and are the most profitable car maker in the world. Again, people know what they are getting into when they enter the world of Porsches and if anything, people appreciate how customizable the cars are (I know I do - now 9 Porsches in). It would take a paradigm shift for their current structure to deviate from what they’ve been doing for as long as I can remember. The 992 is continues to prove that they know their product (its price) and their customers well.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

In short, yes. Not really much to dispute there. The thing is, despite that, they are still setting record sales every year and are the most profitable car maker in the world. Again, people know what they are getting into when they enter the world of Porsches and if anything, people appreciate how customizable the cars are (I know I do - now 9 Porsches in). It would take a paradigm shift for their current structure to deviate from what they’ve been doing for as long as I can remember. The 992 is continues to prove that they know their product (its price) and their customers well.

Imagine the record sales/profitability if they didn't try and gouge every single cent out of their current or potential future customers. They may regret this strategy when the inevitable economic downturn comes and vehicle sales are already slowing without that happening yet.

There is a difference between providing customization and price gouging on every bit of it, especially on things such as the MF being way above market rate.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by minn19

Imagine the record sales/profitability if they didn't try and gouge every single cent out of their current or potential future customers. They may regret this strategy when the inevitable economic downturn comes and vehicle sales are already slowing without that happening yet.

There is a difference between providing customization and price gouging on every bit of it, especially on things such as the MF being way above market rate.

Let me clarify. I’m not sure I’d classify it as gouging because to me gouging is more ill intended or deceitful. Porsche is absolutely upfront and honest in their pricing - no surprises and they’ve actually started to include a good bit more in their cars than they once did (ie nav in 911s). We are after all talking about supply and demand which do dictate their pricing and structure. People pay it, so you can’t say there is anything wrong. You may not like it, but that doesn’t make it wrong. BMW does this a lot too...I think they certainly gouge customers to no end on “special” models like the M4 GTS and CS (m5 too) which have taken some of the biggest secondary sales hits I’ve seen in quite some time...something Porsche is on the other end of.

As far as sales go, I think as a top manufacturer their business and future is set up for long term success, especially let when you consider the juggernaut of Porsche, Bugatti, Audi, Lamborghini, etc.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Let me clarify. I’m not sure I’d classify it as gouging because to me gouging is more ill intended or deceitful. Porsche is absolutely upfront and honest in their pricing - no surprises and they’ve actually started to include a good bit more in their cars than they once did (ie nav in 911s). We are after all talking about supply and demand which do dictate their pricing and structure. People pay it, so you can’t say there is anything wrong. You may not like it, but that doesn’t make it wrong. BMW does this a lot too...I think they certainly gouge customers to no end on “special” models like the M4 GTS and CS (m5 too) which have taken some of the biggest secondary sales hits I’ve seen in quite some time...something Porsche is on the other end of.

As far as sales go, I think as a top manufacturer their business and future is set up for long term success, especially let when you consider the juggernaut of Porsche, Bugatti, Audi, Lamborghini, etc.

Unfortunately this is the post I thought you’d reply with. BMW tried to do a Porsche like pricing scheme and ended up failing miserably at it. As evidenced by my posts, I certainly haven’t defended them trying it. As a consumer, I can and will vote with my wallet. I can’t imagine signing a lease knowing the ridiculous mark up on the rate like that and other things. Can I afford it, sure but as was said by a different poster earlier (FormulaMMM I think) about Porsche.................will I fork it over to make somebody else extremely rich just for the “privilege” of driving one of their cars? Hell no, there are much better things that can be done with that money.

IMO Porsche (and BMW to a lesser extent) will end up regretting their strategies. Many companies were once “juggernauts” and no longer are anything due to arrogance. Even some on your list have had to be saved/resurrected before an will again if they continue down this path. A quick search on cars.com shows quite a few leftover Porsche’s at steep discounts they can’t sell. It seems the mighty Porsche brand isn’t immune to market forces either.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by minn19

Unfortunately this is the post I thought you’d reply with. BMW tried to do a Porsche like pricing scheme and ended up failing miserably at it. As evidenced by my posts, I certainly haven’t defended them trying it. As a consumer, I can and will vote with my wallet. I can’t imagine signing a lease knowing the ridiculous mark up on the rate like that and other things. Can I afford it, sure but as was said by a different poster earlier (FormulaMMM I think) about Porsche.................will I fork it over to make somebody else extremely rich just for the “privilege” of driving one of their cars? Hell no, there are much better things that can be done with that money.

IMO Porsche (and BMW to a lesser extent) will end up regretting their strategies. Many companies were once “juggernauts” and no longer are anything due to arrogance. Even some on your list have had to be saved/resurrected before an will again if they continue down this path. A quick search on cars.com shows quite a few leftover Porsche’s at steep discounts they can’t sell. It seems the mighty Porsche brand isn’t immune to market forces either.

Honestly haven’t seen your posts wrt the M4 GTS and CS models. Ultimately, I think you choose what suits your needs and buy it. Fortunately, if you don’t want to fork over the money on a new Porsche, used or leftover models might do the trick or you don’t have to buy at all. Other than paying MSRP for GT cars, I buy their cars at cost so getting a good deal is certainly nothing to scoff at. I tend to swap cars so often that it matters. My 991.2S I sold at a profit. I am holding I should do well on my Carrera T also given the low prod numbers.

The main dichotomy I see with BMW and Porsche, and by and large when you compare to Audi, Mercedes etc is that Porsche is known as the premium marquee (and has been basically as long as they’ve been around) and has been working more cars into lower price brackets which has served them well and lead to not only the obvious conquest sales, but also bringing more people into a brand they dream of owning. The others are doing the opposite in trying to establish 100k+ cars and hasn’t really worked well.

Ultimately, car companies need the vision of what their brand is, but the agility to meet ever changing demands. Those that can drive top down strategy to execution which stimulates its core base (returning sale, multiple cars) but also encompasses new customers is the one most able to succeed.

[Golfster]

I loved my M4 but opted to make a change.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Honestly haven’t seen your posts wrt the M4 GTS and CS models. Ultimately, I think you choose what suits your needs and buy it. Fortunately, if you don’t want to fork over the money on a new Porsche, used or leftover models might do the trick or you don’t have to buy at all. Other than paying MSRP for GT cars, I buy their cars at cost so getting a good deal is certainly nothing to scoff at. I tend to swap cars so often that it matters. My 991.2S I sold at a profit. I am holding I should do well on my Carrera T also given the low prod numbers.

The main dichotomy I see with BMW and Porsche, and by and large when you compare to Audi, Mercedes etc is that Porsche is known as the premium marquee (and has been basically as long as they’ve been around) and has been working more cars into lower price brackets which has served them well and lead to not only the obvious conquest sales, but also bringing more people into a brand they dream of owning. The others are doing the opposite in trying to establish 100k+ cars and hasn’t really worked well.

Ultimately, car companies need the vision of what their brand is, but the agility to meet ever changing demands. Those that can drive top down strategy to execution which stimulates its core base (returning sale, multiple cars) but also encompasses new customers is the one most able to succeed.

I personally think the reason Porsche can do what they do regarding their pricing is because they are lucky being under the VW umbrella. Meaning for most, you would see people go from, VW to Audi then finally to Porsche. BMW and Merc doesn't have the luxury for this as they are their own company. BMW and Mercedes have to cover the entire product line ranging from entry to high end. Porsche absolutely don't have to because VW and Audi covers the entry and middle for them, so all Porsche needs to do is pretty much their own thing and make $$

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Spot on. I always chuckle when I see people say things like bmw is losing its way guess I'll get a Porsche now. I mean a 911 is considerably more expensive than an m3 and in a different class of vehicle. If one could simply afford a 911 off the bat you wouldn't even bother with the m3.

Well, I can easily afford a 911 and still went for the M4. What has me won over is the practicality of the ///M. First, it can serve daily duty very well with plenty of space for the whole family and I can go to the lumbar yard a easily haul contruction material with the seat folded down. I've also considered getting a 911 as a second car to serve mostly the track duty, but I am still puzzled on how I can schlep the track tires with it. The M3/4 is a hell of a good compromise.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

In short, yes. Not really much to dispute there. The thing is, despite that, they are still setting record sales every year and are the most profitable car maker in the world. Again, people know what they are getting into when they enter the world of Porsches and if anything, people appreciate how customizable the cars are (I know I do - now 9 Porsches in). It would take a paradigm shift for their current structure to deviate from what they’ve been doing for as long as I can remember. The 992 is continues to prove that they know their product (its price) and their customers well.

It's not the 911 that makes Porsche so profitable, it's their SUVs. They almost went bankrupt when their sole offering was the 911... And, BTW, I am a big Porsche fan, I love their cars.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Arcades

I personally think the reason Porsche can do what they do regarding their pricing is because they are lucky being under the VW umbrella. Meaning for most, you would see people go from, VW to Audi then finally to Porsche. BMW and Merc doesn't have the luxury for this as they are their own company. BMW and Mercedes have to cover the entire product line ranging from entry to high end. Porsche absolutely don't have to because VW and Audi covers the entry and middle for them, so all Porsche needs to do is pretty much their own thing and make $$

I have to disagree here. Porsche was extremely successful before being under the "VW umbrella". In fact, so much so that they were sitting on so much cash that they almost bought VW. However, in a turn of faith and business saviness in a fight beyween cousins, it went the other way and it is VW that bought Porsche.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Well, I can easily afford a 911 and still went for the M4. What has me won over is the practicality of the ///M. First, it can serve daily duty very well with plenty of space for the whole family and I can go to the lumbar yard a easily haul contruction material with the seat folded down. I've also considered getting a 911 as a second car to serve mostly the track duty, but I am still puzzled on how I can schlep the track tires with it. The M3/4 is a hell of a good compromise.

I applaud your financial success but I think you are the exception and not the rule. If money were not a limiting factor I think most on here would trade their M3/4 for a 911 in a heartbeat. And as you mentioned, most folks who could afford a 911 (typically an older demographic) will likely have it as a second/weekend car.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's not the 911 that makes Porsche so profitable, it's their SUVs. They almost went bankrupt when their sole offering was the 911... And, BTW, I am a big Porsche fan, I love their cars.

Yes, the expansion and diversification of their lineup is why they are where they are today - the genesis of that was the Boxster followed by the additional offerings of the Cayenne, Panamera, and Macan. The sales of those cars have been the catalyst for sales, profit and the development for the 911.
My point on the 992 was simply that they can do almost whatever they want with price and it will have little to no impact on sales. The area the 911 is priced, it’s so good it’s hard to compete with.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

Yes, the expansion and diversification of their lineup is why they are where they are today - the genesis of that was the Boxster followed by the additional offerings of the Cayenne, Panamera, and Macan. The sales of those cars have been the catalyst for sales, profit and the development for the 911.
My point on the 992 was simply that they can do almost whatever they want with price and it will have little to no impact on sales. The area the 911 is priced, it’s so good it’s hard to compete with.

Agreed. It is a good thing that they expanded in those segments, it provides the R&D money to develop the fantastic halo car that the 911 is for us enthusiasts

[JamesGames]

Seems like the ongoing trends I see on bimmerpost are a bunch of posts that rag on BMW and their direction with their new vehicles; yet at the same time, I keep seeing new posts stating record high sales in the month of (xxxx). Interesting...

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

BMW M cars and Porsche "sport cars" are in completely different categories IMO. Why everyone compares them head to head is beyond me. Try taking your family for a drive in a 911.

tl;dr - stream of consciousness with some word salad mixed in as usual...

I could not agree more....Until this week I've been completely agnostic towards Porsche (mostly the 'price gouging' and endless number of options you can tick making it difficult to comprehend building a car to the uninitiated). My first experience with a Porsche dealer ended with me being laughed at by a salesperson at the suggestion that the price of a Macan was negotiable (granted this is when they first came out, so maybe deserved but eff that guy and that dealership). So I bought my M3 - more rear legroom, bigger trunk space, better performance, and a manual tranny. For me at the time the Macan would have been a huge mistake TBH and could not have been happier with the M3 in all around practicality. CanAut has it completely right - this generation of Ms now has a lot of competition making them 2nd best at everything...meaning on a whole the best at everything for what they are, especially with 3 kids.

I have driven M2C/M3C/M4C/M5C on tracks. M2 is really magic and think the Manual M2CS will be a really special BMW. The M3 is still for me the right size for my life yet doesn't feel heavy on track. It is still tossable and deals very competently with weight shifts with great mechanical grip. M5 is a lot of fun when coming out of corners, but just too big for my taste (but when my 3 kids are bigger, and have more crap to bring with them on trips...).

Then I had what I can only describe as a spiritual experience earlier this week. It left me with the feeling that I had accomplished everything I would ever want out of life (other than making sure my kids don't grow up to be assholes--except when necessary). Got to drive a 991.2 GT3 for 3 hours on track. I have no words. It truly is another level. Power, linear, predictable, raw, aural experience...just something that completely embodies what it is...one of those things in life where form and function are in complete harmony. I would have bought the thing right then and there on the spot if it were for sale and then asked questions of which kidney or child would I sell to make that happen later (right or left kidney that is, not which child )....So I left that experience wondering if all 911s have that same underlying magic / DNA and I suspect they do. I think this is why everyone is up in arms over what BMW M is doing...losing that magical DNA that they had, even though I've only ever driven an F80 and think its swell .

But for where I am in my life right now, how much I would want to drive the car, and 3 kids I think the M3 is still by far the best value for price and most capable car there is out there. Driving the GT3 also helped me appreciate how capable the F8X platform really is...it is not that far off (unless you trust C&D VIR hot lap times) and less than 1/2 the price. So will wait and see what the G8X platform holds with my only intent to keep my current F80 for several more years (I own, didn't lease so have time)...

But now I'm more than tempted away...Looking at the 911 lineup I'd have to say the 911 Carrera T in a manual has got to be a fabulous driver's car, and if its a GT3 it has to be a PDK, I wouldn't want that in a manual (and I've only ever had manuals, so paradigm shift for me). And to Porsche's credit when they realized they had a potential engine problem with the 991.1 they acknowledged it, owned it, and took care of it...thats what I think their price buys you...but you can't take a family of 5 anywhere in one either...

I suspect in a couple of years when the 992 GT3 allocations start rolling out and the platform is polished Porsche's price gouging bubble will burst, especially in the used market with everyone trying to "flip" GT cars (financially, not literally)....

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by minn19

Imagine the record sales/profitability if they didn't try and gouge every single cent out of their current or potential future customers. They may regret this strategy when the inevitable economic downturn comes and vehicle sales are already slowing without that happening yet.

There is a difference between providing customization and price gouging on every bit of it, especially on things such as the MF being way above market rate.

Imagine though, if that many more people were buying Porsche models. More mass appeal eventually results in a more watered down, mediocre product line.

[Habber]

Barrett Jackson.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Imagine though, if that many more people were buying Porsche models. More mass appeal eventually results in a more watered down, mediocre product line.

With the Macans, Cayenne's, X vehicles sure. But, I don’t buy that is has to with the higher end of each manufacturer lines 911s/Ms etc.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by rhk118

tl;dr - stream of consciousness with some word salad mixed in as usual...

I could not agree more....Until this week I've been completely agnostic towards Porsche (mostly the 'price gouging' and endless number of options you can tick making it difficult to comprehend building a car to the uninitiated). My first experience with a Porsche dealer ended with me being laughed at by a salesperson at the suggestion that the price of a Macan was negotiable (granted this is when they first came out, so maybe deserved but eff that guy and that dealership). So I bought my M3 - more rear legroom, bigger trunk space, better performance, and a manual tranny. For me at the time the Macan would have been a huge mistake TBH and could not have been happier with the M3 in all around practicality. CanAut has it completely right - this generation of Ms now has a lot of competition making them 2nd best at everything...meaning on a whole the best at everything for what they are, especially with 3 kids.

I have driven M2C/M3C/M4C/M5C on tracks. M2 is really magic and think the Manual M2CS will be a really special BMW. The M3 is still for me the right size for my life yet doesn't feel heavy on track. It is still tossable and deals very competently with weight shifts with great mechanical grip. M5 is a lot of fun when coming out of corners, but just too big for my taste (but when my 3 kids are bigger, and have more crap to bring with them on trips...).

Then I had what I can only describe as a spiritual experience earlier this week. It left me with the feeling that I had accomplished everything I would ever want out of life (other than making sure my kids don't grow up to be assholes--except when necessary). Got to drive a 991.2 GT3 for 3 hours on track. I have no words. It truly is another level. Power, linear, predictable, raw, aural experience...just something that completely embodies what it is...one of those things in life where form and function are in complete harmony. I would have bought the thing right then and there on the spot if it were for sale and then asked questions of which kidney or child would I sell to make that happen later (right or left kidney that is, not which child )....So I left that experience wondering if all 911s have that same underlying magic / DNA and I suspect they do. I think this is why everyone is up in arms over what BMW M is doing...losing that magical DNA that they had, even though I've only ever driven an F80 and think its swell .

But for where I am in my life right now, how much I would want to drive the car, and 3 kids I think the M3 is still by far the best value for price and most capable car there is out there. Driving the GT3 also helped me appreciate how capable the F8X platform really is...it is not that far off (unless you trust C&D VIR hot lap times) and less than 1/2 the price. So will wait and see what the G8X platform holds with my only intent to keep my current F80 for several more years (I own, didn't lease so have time)...

But now I'm more than tempted away...Looking at the 911 lineup I'd have to say the 911 Carrera T in a manual has got to be a fabulous driver's car, and if its a GT3 it has to be a PDK, I wouldn't want that in a manual (and I've only ever had manuals, so paradigm shift for me). And to Porsche's credit when they realized they had a potential engine problem with the 991.1 they acknowledged it, owned it, and took care of it...thats what I think their price buys you...but you can't take a family of 5 anywhere in one either...

I suspect in a couple of years when the 992 GT3 allocations start rolling out and the platform is polished Porsche's price gouging bubble will burst, especially in the used market with everyone trying to "flip" GT cars (financially, not literally)....

All 911s do share that magical DNA. Not taking away from the M3, but it’s nowhere close to a GT3 in performance. Even the M4 GTS can’t match a 991.2S (which has non cup tires and less aero, hp and tq) and if you stick cup tires on a base 991.2 it would likely be able to outperform that M4 GTS too - the VIR times for a 991.2 Carrera T on summer tires is only .5 second off an M4 GTS on cups (with 2-3 seconds a lap) and 7 seconds faster than an M4 on equal tires.
I love my Carrera T (PDK) and enjoyed my 991.2S (7MT) as well. They perform well above the paper stats and are easily make some of the best drivers car while offering feel, precision, and decent practicality.
Porsche keeps saying they are going to fulfill demand on upcoming GT cars, but I don’t believe it until I see it.