991.2 4GTS

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by adc

I disagree with you on many things, but especially so about the motor. BMW does turbo much better than Porsche, at least in the 3L category. My friend has briefly owned a 991.2 C2S and we drove it back to back with my car - he was the one who made the initial comment, not me.

He then sold C2S for an M3 CS, which he thought was much more fun on the street. I guess they never gave him the gallon of Porsche branded coolaid with any of his cars.

ADC, don't bother. He is a Porsche troll. He's been banned more than once but keeps coming back for more.

He is so certain about Porsche superiority that he spends his time in a BMW forum.

This is the kind of person that says 'I have a Porsche' often, and when you ask which ones he has, tells you he either has Q5 in drag, also knows as the Macan.

He also likes talking about performance driving. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

[Funf6cyl]

Except that I also own an M5 Competiton.

[FreeDarko]

Op, I had a similar dilemma when I was getting bored of my m3 with few suspension mods, 305/265 tires and Bm3 stage 1 (eventually changed to the CS tune for the linearity of the power curve).

First option was a 997 turbo, drive it fm Canada to BBi in Cali over the course of 2 weeks and let them get it to handle the way I want. Low end, 30k but much higher if I converted to rwd gt2 spec.

However I had to put that thought on hold for time being as we ended up traveling for 4 mths but I still think rwd converted 997 turbo is the way to go for street use.

While I was traveling I kept coming back to 911, 991.2 specifically Read up on many experiences from gt3 owners to c4s and 991T.

Having a kid, I realized I wasn't ready to give up the rear seats as my son loves going for drives so GT3 was out for now.

And to be honest, I would consider the 718 Gt4 as a value proposition before considering the GT3. Even the 4.0 GTS but then you could just start off with a CPO 981 GTS which I rented for a week in Cali, use it for a year and sell it for not much of a loss.

Between the non GT 911 models, the C4S is very useful for those up north. EVO mag has a long term feature on the 991.2 C4S here (https://www.topgear.com/long-term-ca...s-2dr/report-1) and they raved about the everyday usability.

However every owner who previously had the rwd version prior to did talk about the muted feedback on the C4 and that's something we have to accept. And the slight loss in frunk space (if it matters).

I do believe the T in the manual, especially with the current used market and pricing is the sweet spot. The smaller turbos spool up much faster and you get so many unique features that are available on the higher specs or GT model.

The GTS, other than the body kit, 3rd radiator and the faster PDK is priced too close to the GT models for what it is.

Anyway atleast for me, the issue was always, can I drive a rwd 911 confidently year round as I've done with other rwd cars for past 20 years. We already have multiple other awd cars and for most part I felt the traction aided by the C4 911 would prevent me from enjoying in the same manner as rwd.

At the end, seeing that I wanted a smaller chassis, rwd for year round use in snowy conditions as well, I went with the M2 competition.

I'm hoping to add a 911T though for non daily use till I get comfortable with the engine hanging out the back in slippery conditions.

But the M2 comp will be here for forseeable future as it ticks all the boxes at the moment.

Nevertheless, I do at times miss the m3. As Savagegesse review highlights, there's really no other competitor out there for what the m3 offers.

[Maitre_Absolut]

Originally Posted by FreeDarko

First option was a 997 turbo, drive it fm Canada to BBi in Cali over the course of 2 weeks and let them get it to handle the way I want. Low end, 30k but much higher if I converted to rwd gt2 spec.

I still think rwd converted 997 turbo is the way to go for street use.

Let me see if I get this right, you think the best street car is a 10+ year old 70k Porsche, that you have to drive 10,000km to a shop in California to spend minimum 30k to convert to RWD for some reason.

I think this is a terrible idea and something you would instantly regret. Might be some dream for you but you would be wasting all that $.

Originally Posted by FreeDarko

Between the non GT 911 models, the C4S is very useful for those up north. EVO mag has a long term feature on the 991.2 C4S here (https://www.topgear.com/long-term-ca...s-2dr/report-1) and they raved about the everyday usability.

The GTS, other than the body kit, 3rd radiator and the faster PDK is priced too close to the GT models for what it is.

I drove a 991.2 C4S at Mosport for a day, I just wasnt impressed enough with the car for the price. I agree with the GTS value comment.

Originally Posted by FreeDarko

At the end, seeing that I wanted a smaller chassis, rwd for year round use in snowy conditions as well, I went with the M2 competition.

But the M2 comp will be here for forseeable future as it ticks all the boxes at the moment.

Nevertheless, I do at times miss the m3. As Savagegesse review highlights, there's really no other competitor out there for what the m3 offers.

I dont know how you manage an M2 with kids and why you would switch when you already have the M3.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut

Let me see if I get this right, you think the best street car is a 10+ year old 70k Porsche, that you have to drive 10,000km to a shop in California to spend minimum 30k to convert to RWD for some reason.

I think this is a terrible idea and something you would instantly regret. Might be some dream for you but you would be wasting all that $.

I didn't understand this either and I just bought a 997.1 turbo as my daily street driven vehicle. (or at least that was my intention when I bought it)

But if you buy a 997 turbo to convert it to RWD, why not just buy a 997 gt2 in the first place. (albeit there were only around ~200 in NA). I mean, sure, you are probably looking at dropping $150k.....but if you don't wreck it, you'll get it back.

[FreeDarko]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I didn't understand this either and I just bought a 997.1 turbo as my daily street driven vehicle. (or at least that was my intention when I bought it)

But if you buy a 997 turbo to convert it to RWD, why not just buy a 997 gt2 in the first place. (albeit there were only around ~200 in NA). I mean, sure, you are probably looking at dropping $150k.....but if you don't wreck it, you'll get it back.

Lol, this is a dream scenario which I'm gratefully didn't happen based on the current economic environment. I think the few that BBi rwd conversions have done are over 120k extra but they include a separate ECU.

But there are others who have removed the front drive shaft for much less but from what I understand the electronics don't all jell.

The GT2 is slowly coming down in pricing but it's only available in 2 seater configuration.

[UGADawgFan]

I just bought a 991.1 GT3 instead of a 991.2 GTS to replace my F80. I liked the GTS, and it was/is definitely an upgrade from the F80, buuuut...the GT3 is in a different league as far as driving experience. I spent this past weekend blasting around the North Georgia mountains and knew I had made the right decision for me The aero + 9K RPM sound track + steering feel made for a joyous weekend. I had way more fun (and trust) in the car after a few hours of driving it hard than I did in my tuned F80 after driving it for 2 1/2 years.

That said- the GT3 is a horrible daily driver, and if it was my only car (or I had to commute in it), there's no way I could or would want to do it (and I'd have bought the GTS). The road noise is deafening (especially at interstate speeds), the engine is grumpy at low RPMs, and the rear visibility is poor. My 21 year old Xterra feels as quiet as a luxury car in comparison if I drive them back-to-back. I took my wife out on a date night in the GT3 the first weekend I had it, and I instantly regretted it since I couldn't have a conversation with her without kind of shouting. Her S4 is definitely going to be used a lot more than when I had my M3.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

I just bought a 991.1 GT3 instead of a 991.2 GTS to replace my F80. I liked the GTS, and it was/is definitely an upgrade from the F80, buuuut...the GT3 is in a different league as far as driving experience. I spent this past weekend blasting around the North Georgia mountains and knew I had made the right decision for me The aero + 9K RPM sound track + steering feel made for a joyous weekend. I had way more fun (and trust) in the car after a few hours of driving it hard than I did in my tuned F80 after driving it for 2 1/2 years.

That said- the GT3 is a horrible daily driver, and if it was my only car (or I had to commute in it), there's no way I could or would want to do it (and I'd have bought the GTS). The road noise is deafening (especially at interstate speeds), the engine is grumpy at low RPMs, and the rear visibility is poor. My 21 year old Xterra feels as quiet as a luxury car in comparison if I drive them back-to-back. I took my wife out on a date night in the GT3 the first weekend I had it, and I instantly regretted it since I couldn't have a conversation with her without kind of shouting. Her S4 is definitely going to be used a lot more than when I had my M3.

Thank you for this. Seriously. The Gt3 is the king of the track day experience and great mountain road (with good visibility and good road surface) driving experience. I know my 997.1 turbo, for example, is much more muted compared to say a RWD 997 S let alone a gt3.

What I found though when I dove deeper into the gt3 vs. turbo vs. C2S was that the gt3 was near-universally rejected as a daily driver or commuter car. Or even date night car. I liked how one well known Porsche racer said to me that a street driven gt3 is either a track junkie who likes to drive on the streets occasionally in their track car or a badge whore - almost no in between.

To your point about "trust" in your gt3 vs. f80 m3. I owned my stock f80 m3 for 71k miles and struggled to consistently be able to drive it on the edge of MDM without MDM intervening. I struggled to balance throttle input vs. traction envelope. I could definitely do it, but usually by dialing it back a tad. Maybe this was a function of MDM, but i never got comfortable with the concept of taking MDM fully out of the equation on the street and in anything less than a straight line. Outside of throttle though, I found the stock f80 m3 to have excellent predictable steering, handling, and braking characteristics. I could take long sweeping off ramps at incredible speeds without any MDM or ABS interference and nail throttle roll-in everytime in all sorts of ambient temps.

Anyway....for me, in cold temps and with lots of wet roads with tons of surface imperfections/potholes/road ripples and with a desire to daily drive, I believe(d) that the benefits of the AWD 911 outweighed the weight, drivetrain loss, and muting compared to RWD. And I found I wanted the kick-in-the-ass of the turbo's 505 lb/ft of torque stock (in overboost). And of course the manual transmission.

That combination really narrowed it down. The one thing i'll say though....there are times I think I don't need this much power and I miss a more N/A feel. When you hit 70 in 2nd before you blink and 100 in 3rd a few seconds later....and that's despite lag coming in between shifts....ya gotta ask yourself sometimes if it would be more fun to be down ~130hp but with N/A response.

But first I gotta modify this thing up to 550-600hp and see what that feels like before it's time to move on

[clubspec330i]

OP,

Did you end up getting .2GTS?

I was in the same situation as you a few months back. It has been over 2 months and about 1100 miles. I am truly happy with my 991T.

Cheers,

Mack

[Maitre_Absolut]

Originally Posted by clubspec330i

OP,

Did you end up getting .2GTS?

I was in the same situation as you a few months back. It has been over 2 months and about 1100 miles. I am truly happy with my 991T.

Cheers,

Mack

No it sold pretty quickly and prices have been up at least 10k since then.

Started playing with the RS6 configurator last weekend though . Cheaper than a used GTS, practical and sexy as hell. Though Im pretty sure you get bored of it pretty quickly once the novelty wears off.

[clubspec330i]

Originally Posted by Maitre_Absolut

No it sold pretty quickly and prices have been up at least 10k since then.

Started playing with the RS6 configurator last weekend though . Cheaper than a used GTS, practical and sexy as hell. Though Im pretty sure you get bored of it pretty quickly once the novelty wears off.

RS6 is an amazing car. Go for it. I won't mind replacing my M550i with a CPO RS6.

You were right about prices have gone up. Since I got my CPO '19 in early June, even an '18 with 13k miles is going for the same amount I got mine. Crazy.

As for excitement and novelty, you may be right also. We will cross the bridge once we get there. As for long, it is still fun to drive.

[Leftkeylife]

Originally Posted by clubspec330i

OP,

Did you end up getting .2GTS?

I was in the same situation as you a few months back. It has been over 2 months and about 1100 miles. I am truly happy with my 991T.

Cheers,

Mack

Are you on Rennlist? Feel like I've seen your MB T on there. I had a '19 Carrera T and really loved the car. It's one of few cars I'd say I miss or resent selling. Price on them have been stable and started to increase lately too.

[clubspec330i]

Originally Posted by Leftkeylife

Are you on Rennlist? Feel like I've seen your MB T on there. I had a '19 Carrera T and really loved the car. It's one of few cars I'd say I miss or resent selling. Price on them have been stable and started to increase lately too.

Yes I am on there. T is a great driving car.

Currently I am on a road trip from SoCal to Telluride, CO. Hwy160 was amazing drive and wished I had brought my T. Unfortunately, I have two teenagers and they won't fit in the backseat for few hundred miles drive.

[Damage Inc]

I had a 991.1 GTS and 991.1 C4S. Drove the 991.2 a number of times.

The C4S w SPASM is amazing. Glued to the road. GTS has the extra sounds and raw feel. My mistake was they were both PDK so got bored quick. Should have held out for the manual.

As a big NA sound guy I just couldn't get into the .2 turbo sounds, too quiet inside. However the suspension tuning is amazing. I wish BMW would learn from Porsche - you can build an amazingly handling and communicative suspension without it being numb and harsh.

I sold both 911's as for $100k they just didn't feel special enough to me. Excellent driving machines, no doubt. Although a bit clinical.

If I bought a 911 its GT3 or nothing. I want the full on exotic sports car driving experience. The non GT3 are nice driving cars but just a bit too refined.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

If I bought a 911 its GT3 or nothing. I want the full on exotic sports car driving experience. The non GT3 are nice driving cars but just a bit too refined.

says the guy who drives an R8.

[Damage Inc]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

says the guy who drives an R8.

How many R8's and 911's have you owned? I'm providing perspective as somebody who HAS owned these cars not watched youtube videos to formulate an opinion.

R8 V8 or V10 with race exhaust is exotic car power and sound experience. The 911 non GT 6, especially with the turbo's, is not. Dull sounds and power at the top end.

R8 exotic car looks, attention, its an "event" to drive. 911 blends in, nothing special.

911 non GT are very nice sports cars but they will not light your hair on fire. They are great DD sports cars, not really special enough (to me) to be a weekend event type drive.

[dwz]

I heard people had more issues with Miami blue paint... Porsche is not going to have them for 2021 model...

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

How many R8's and 911's have you owned? I'm providing perspective as somebody who HAS owned these cars not watched youtube videos to formulate an opinion.

R8 V8 or V10 with race exhaust is exotic car power and sound experience. The 911 non GT 6, especially with the turbo's, is not. Dull sounds and power at the top end.

R8 exotic car looks, attention, its an "event" to drive. 911 blends in, nothing special.

911 non GT are very nice sports cars but they will not light your hair on fire. They are great DD sports cars, not really special enough (to me) to be a weekend event type drive.

relax, I was teasing. My point was that the R8 is actually very refined. Probably as much, or even more so, than a 911. I agree with you, the regular 911s didn't really didn't do much for me; I never felt the need to upgrade to a regular 911 from my F80 M3.

That being said, I cross shopped the GT3 with the first gen V10 R8 (both the single and dual clutch versions) and they didn't do it for me either. V10 sounded great, but the R8 was kind of boring to drive at regular speed. One of the things I love about my GT3 that it feels so alive at normal speeds.

I don't really care much about the "exotic" looks of a car, but the GT3 looks exotic enough for me.

[THEROK]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

I had a 991.1 GTS and 991.1 C4S. Drove the 991.2 a number of times.

The C4S w SPASM is amazing. Glued to the road. GTS has the extra sounds and raw feel. My mistake was they were both PDK so got bored quick. Should have held out for the manual.

As a big NA sound guy I just couldn't get into the .2 turbo sounds, too quiet inside. However the suspension tuning is amazing. I wish BMW would learn from Porsche - you can build an amazingly handling and communicative suspension without it being numb and harsh.

I sold both 911's as for $100k they just didn't feel special enough to me. Excellent driving machines, no doubt. Although a bit clinical.

If I bought a 911 its GT3 or nothing. I want the full on exotic sports car driving experience. The non GT3 are nice driving cars but just a bit too refined.

The 991.2 Touring or 991.2 GT3 are lifetime cars for me. Legit motorsport engines.

I'd be happy with either, but would prefer a mint 997.1 RS with that legendary Mezger block.

F82 is a great holdover. One of the best looking designs of all time. Incredibly durable power plant with consistent output in the harshest conditions. Shocking for a run of the mill commuter car platform.

[ntg44]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

How many R8's and 911's have you owned? I'm providing perspective as somebody who HAS owned these cars not watched youtube videos to formulate an opinion.

R8 V8 or V10 with race exhaust is exotic car power and sound experience. The 911 non GT 6, especially with the turbo's, is not. Dull sounds and power at the top end.

R8 exotic car looks, attention, its an "event" to drive. 911 blends in, nothing special.

911 non GT are very nice sports cars but they will not light your hair on fire. They are great DD sports cars, not really special enough (to me) to be a weekend event type drive.

I love my manual R8 V8 Spyder. Installed an exhaust recently, and I did not know the sounds the 4.2 was capable of. Cross plane rumble with flat plane harmonics. The 2nd-3rd gear bolt action-like ka-chunk at 8500 RPM on the open gate shifter is priceless. I don't know if any other car will ever give me the same feeling. 8 years in ownership and I still can't get over it.

I've never driven a 911, but none besides the GT3 make me feel like a little kid the way the R8 does. I'd love to drive any 911 one day, but don't think I could ever get myself to buy one.

[Flacht3]

Originally Posted by ntg44

I love my manual R8 V8 Spyder. Installed an exhaust recently, and I did not know the sounds the 4.2 was capable of. Cross plane rumble with flat plane harmonics. The 2nd-3rd gear bolt action-like ka-chunk at 8500 RPM on the open gate shifter is priceless. I don't know if any other car will ever give me the same feeling. 8 years in ownership and I still can't get over it.

I've never driven a 911, but none besides the GT3 make me feel like a little kid the way the R8 does. I'd love to drive any 911 one day, but don't think I could ever get myself to buy one.

R8 for the looks, sound and attention
GT3 for the actual driving experience (and sound, subjectively)

Don't misread that; they are both phenomenal. I wouldn't kick either out of my garage.

Source: plenty of time at the wheel in both.

[Maitre_Absolut]

Originally Posted by Flacht3

R8 for the looks, sound and attention
GT3 for the actual driving experience (and sound, subjectively)

Don't misread that; they are both phenomenal. I wouldn't kick either out of my garage.

Source: plenty of time at the wheel in both.

I would buy an R8 (v8 or 10) in a heartbeat if it had +2 seating! Definitely ticks all the boxes and agree sounds and feels more special than equivalent price 911. Have driven one around LCMT and test drove new gen spyder