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      01-22-2020, 12:21 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I no longer suggest people buy dedicated wheels if all they want to run is a NT01, because they could get the same performance out of a set of RE71s mounted on their stock wheels.
From a cost perspective, how would RE71s last as dailies compared to say MPS4S's? If the wear is significantly faster, it might make sense to spend $1200 on 18" wheels rather than mount RE71s on my CS with 19 and 20 staggered.

265/35R19 front and 295/30R20 for the rear is $1482. I'm reading they don't wear as well as the NT-01.
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      01-22-2020, 12:26 PM   #46
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Pretty interesting conversation going on here. I think SYT_Shadow's first post is pretty spot on. Novices need no changes with the F80/F82. Camber plates + pads are definitely the next step, plenty of evidence of destroying tires with stock alignment and the stock pads quickly get overwhelmed.

The tire discussion is interesting. I'll be in a great position where I can gather some valuable data. I'll be trailering my car + spares, I have a ton of laps at my local track, the weather is pretty consistent in Colorado, and I plan on testing square + staggered wheel setups in 18". I won't be modifying this car past brakes, wheels, and the already installed camber plates, and without too much effort I could do back-to-back testing of tire sets. I'll do my best to log everything in a spreadsheet + notebook.

I'll likely start wheel/tire testing in April/May, I've got an ej257 to install, an e82 rear subframe to replace, and then the f82 is back at the top of the queue.

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Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Not sure what I'm going to run on the M2C, although I have a set of 275 rears laying around so RE-71 will be first. I'd like to try the AO52's, they appear to be non directional so safer to rotate. The 400mm front brakes on the M2C mean a BBK is mandatory for 18's, which after dropping $60k on the car is somewhat irritating.
It's definitely an expensive step to run cheaper/better 18" wheels/tire setups but judging from the AP9668/9660 used prices and how quickly they get flipped, it's a recoverable expense.
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      01-22-2020, 12:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
From a cost perspective, how would RE71s last as dailies compared to say MPS4S's? If the wear is significantly faster, it might make sense to spend $1200 on 18" wheels rather than mount RE71s on my CS with 19 and 20 staggered.

265/35R19 front and 295/30R20 for the rear is $1482. I'm reading they don't wear as well as the NT-01.
I've never been able to put appreciable wear on the REs from street use.

I have a half worn setup sitting around in CS sizes that I have no use for
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      01-22-2020, 02:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I've never been able to put appreciable wear on the REs from street use.

I have a half worn setup sitting around in CS sizes that I have no use for
Hi, I have use the 200tw class tire for daily for several years and planned for 1 set a season based on 15k street miles and 8-10 casual DEs

If durability is a factor, Dunlop zII Star spec are slower than Re71r but consistent at the track and super durable

MP4S is the stock tire on my model 3P and after 26k street miles they are at around 40% tread left so itís a much more commuter oriented tire.
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      01-22-2020, 09:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
Pretty interesting conversation going on here. I think SYT_Shadow's first post is pretty spot on. Novices need no changes with the F80/F82. Camber plates + pads are definitely the next step, plenty of evidence of destroying tires with stock alignment and the stock pads quickly get overwhelmed.

The tire discussion is interesting. I'll be in a great position where I can gather some valuable data. I'll be trailering my car + spares, I have a ton of laps at my local track, the weather is pretty consistent in Colorado, and I plan on testing square + staggered wheel setups in 18". I won't be modifying this car past brakes, wheels, and the already installed camber plates, and without too much effort I could do back-to-back testing of tire sets. I'll do my best to log everything in a spreadsheet + notebook.

I'll likely start wheel/tire testing in April/May, I've got an ej257 to install, an e82 rear subframe to replace, and then the f82 is back at the top of the queue.



It's definitely an expensive step to run cheaper/better 18" wheels/tire setups but judging from the AP9668/9660 used prices and how quickly they get flipped, it's a recoverable expense.
Looking at $10K all in for a full Essex AP setup including pads, clips etc. which even if you get $6.5k back at the end is still a large investment. Only other reasonable option would be a Stoptech trophy front/ rear but would probably lose a similar amount of money.

When you also consider in the M2C brakes don't have removable caliper bridges at the front and weigh a ton they don't feel like much of an upgrade for track use. On the flip side they look fantastic, and feel excellent on the street with great pedal feel and are easy to modulate. Compared to the brakes put on M cars of the past (I'm looking at you E46!) they are light years ahead.
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      01-23-2020, 05:51 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
To put it another way, I fear that the standard advice we -the more experienced track people on the forum- give newbies is wrong.

Given how fast a set of RE71s in stock sizes are, there really is no need for people to be buying extra sets of wheels.

Extra wheels are still great, but I feel that it is much more optional than I felt many years ago when I started tracking, where I bought a set of 18x10 Arc8s for my second event.
The ONLY way I could live with re71s as a daily is if I rarely drove the car on public roads. They are just WAY too noisy for me as a day-day tire. Not a big deal for my 70 mile drive to VIR 3-4 times a year, but anything more then that it would drive me completely insane. The ps4s blows away the re71s as a daily, it isn't even close. I'd consider re71s for track tires if they came in 275/305 and were the same cost as NT01s. At least you can use the re71s in the rain provided they still have ample tread of course.
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      01-23-2020, 06:45 AM   #51
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Nice discussion here....

I've ran 19" 71R's (265 / 305) as dual-duty daily + track use the previous season. This is with ~ -2.8 or .9 camber up front. As they wore (I think down to about 4/32 or so), rain became significantly scarier during daily driving, in part related to the increased baseline tramlining due to the fairly aggressive negative camber. As this is my daily driver (which often includes hauling 2 kids around), this actually made me go for the 18" 275 / 305 NT01 setup for this coming season. I'm just going to suck it up and switch back and forth to 437M with stock PSS in between events (then eventually go to PS4S 265 /285 when those are toast). Will see how that goes.

If anyone's going to be at NJMP this season let me know, would be fun to meet up.
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      01-23-2020, 08:12 AM   #52
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It just seems like we're repeating the same-old information to new track drivers without re-evaluating the current scene. It happens in this sub way too often and it's a bit frustrating to read. It not only happens with tires, but brake pads, maintenance intervals, etc. At some point you just gotta try it for yourself rather than relying on hearsay.

The RE71Rs are completely fine for daily driving, the noise level even with heavily unbalanced wear is tolerable for daily and/or road trips, and with minimal tread depth they are fine in heavy rain if cautiously driven. I've driven 3, 5, and 6 hr one-way trips with RE11s and RE71s over the past 3 yrs and neither were a problem. Those same sets of tires accumulated thousands of street miles between events/daily use without appreciable wear. Mind you, I wouldn't wanna do it with a 1990 Civic with no sound insulation, but with a BMW it's totally acceptable. Even the NT01 didn't seem all that bad noise wise, but they just don't inspire the same confidence level as true-street tires in adverse conditions. Maybe my ears are going bad?!

If you gotta go with a smaller wheel option, could you make a 265/40 + 275-95/40/18 Hankook RS4 work on the APEX or OEM 18inch wheels? While not very wide, that might be your best bang for your buck while still offering great wear rates and commuting possibilities (daily and/or to-from the track). If I were to do it again, I would have tried using the Hankook or Nankang's over the Nittos from day one.
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      01-23-2020, 10:52 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfritz27 View Post
Nice discussion here....

I've ran 19" 71R's (265 / 305) as dual-duty daily + track use the previous season. This is with ~ -2.8 or .9 camber up front. As they wore (I think down to about 4/32 or so), rain became significantly scarier during daily driving, in part related to the increased baseline tramlining due to the fairly aggressive negative camber. As this is my daily driver (which often includes hauling 2 kids around), this actually made me go for the 18" 275 / 305 NT01 setup for this coming season. I'm just going to suck it up and switch back and forth to 437M with stock PSS in between events (then eventually go to PS4S 265 /285 when those are toast). Will see how that goes.

If anyone's going to be at NJMP this season let me know, would be fun to meet up.
I've had some very sketchy moments in the rain on worn RE-71's, coming back from WGI and NJMP last year in torrential rain was some of the most stressful driving I've ever done. I'll definitely be at NJMP again this year, need to look at the schedule again but I think there is a NASA event in June.
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      01-23-2020, 01:09 PM   #54
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Dang all these track talks make me miss driving on track. 3 more months to go!
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      01-23-2020, 01:55 PM   #55
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Dang all these track talks make me miss driving on track. 3 more months to go!
You could always drive down here to the desert region! I was just at Streets Of Willow 2 weeks ago.
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      01-23-2020, 03:09 PM   #56
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You could always drive down here to the desert region! I was just at Streets Of Willow 2 weeks ago.
Yeah I could see myself doing that someday in the future, with more time and money.
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      01-23-2020, 04:51 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
Pretty interesting conversation going on here. I think SYT_Shadow's first post is pretty spot on. Novices need no changes with the F80/F82. Camber plates + pads are definitely the next step, plenty of evidence of destroying tires with stock alignment and the stock pads quickly get overwhelmed.

The tire discussion is interesting. I'll be in a great position where I can gather some valuable data. I'll be trailering my car + spares, I have a ton of laps at my local track, the weather is pretty consistent in Colorado, and I plan on testing square + staggered wheel setups in 18". I won't be modifying this car past brakes, wheels, and the already installed camber plates, and without too much effort I could do back-to-back testing of tire sets. I'll do my best to log everything in a spreadsheet + notebook.

I'll likely start wheel/tire testing in April/May, I've got an ej257 to install, an e82 rear subframe to replace, and then the f82 is back at the top of the queue.



It's definitely an expensive step to run cheaper/better 18" wheels/tire setups but judging from the AP9668/9660 used prices and how quickly they get flipped, it's a recoverable expense.
Would be interested to tag along. Could help with note taking.
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      01-23-2020, 05:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by SD ///M4 View Post
I've been tracking my 2016 M4 since May 2016, 24 days at last count. I have dedicated track wheels/tires, brake pads, and I have camber plates and Dinan springs.

You don't need to do anything special to take your car to the track, but if you are looking for the bare minimum I would suggest brake pads. I've seen people toast their stock F80 brakes at the track after one day. Because I always take my street pads with me to the track as backup I was able to save one guy's weekend and his ability to drive home afterwards by selling him my lightly used stock pads.


Now I always take your set when going to the track. Just in case...
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      01-23-2020, 05:28 PM   #59
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Pads and fluid are not necessary for beginning, unless driven real hard from day 1 if it can be done... Factory front pads will wear very quick down the road. Dealership will perhaps do first pad replacement for free.
Since 2017 pads and rotors are not covered by free maintenance program. More, if brake wear sensors were intact, dealer will not replace pads. Overheated calipers turning green/black will not be covered and may be flagged by dealer, too.

P.S. Just for the reference, I have 19" x9/10 OZ Hyper HLT wheels with RE-71R 265/35 and 285/35 tires and Pagid RSL29 pads for the track.
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      01-23-2020, 06:36 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by dim635csi View Post
Since 2017 pads and rotors are not covered by free maintenance program. More, if brake wear sensors were intact, dealer will not replace pads. Overheated calipers turning green/black will not be covered and may be flagged by dealer, too.

P.S. Just for the reference, I have 19" x9/10 OZ Hyper HLT wheels with RE-71R 265/35 and 285/35 tires and Pagid RSL29 pads for the track.
You are right! I feel old and obsolete now...

As soon as dealer sees obvious evidence of tracking they can deny to cover the affected items, but it's not the same as using the word 'flagged.' Interestingly even after they stopped giving me free pads, they did free brake fluid for me. One SA told me, "as long as you don't chip the car you are fine."
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      01-23-2020, 06:40 PM   #61
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You are right! I feel old and obsolete now...

As soon as dealer sees obvious evidence of tracking they can deny to cover the affected items, but it's not the same as using the word 'flagged.' Interestingly even after they stopped giving me free pads, they did free brake fluid for me. One SA told me, "as long as you don't chip the car you are fine."
I had AW '16 M4 with 18" wheels. Pads and rotors replaced for free under scheduled maint program. Good old days...
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      01-23-2020, 06:51 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by CRRobert View Post
I am running MICHELIN PS4S, hybrid track pads(ferodo ds2500), fresh brake fluid and camber plates on MP HAS suspension. Has been a great starting point. Looking to go full track pads and RE71 tires next.

Syt_shadow, what pressures are you running on the RE71R's at?
So far I've only done RE-71R tires and Pagid RS29's - has been great so far - this spring probably upgrading to MPAS...
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      01-23-2020, 07:00 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Looking at $10K all in for a full Essex AP setup including pads, clips etc. which even if you get $6.5k back at the end is still a large investment. Only other reasonable option would be a Stoptech trophy front/ rear but would probably lose a similar amount of money.

When you also consider in the M2C brakes don't have removable caliper bridges at the front and weigh a ton they don't feel like much of an upgrade for track use. On the flip side they look fantastic, and feel excellent on the street with great pedal feel and are easy to modulate. Compared to the brakes put on M cars of the past (I'm looking at you E46!) they are light years ahead.
Do you need to replace the rear brakes to be able to run a 18" wheel?

If not, just stick to a front only BBK. Or stick to the OEM brakes and get a set of 19" track wheels, or just put RE71s on your stock wheels

There's no need for a full BBK unless you're tracking very seriously.
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      01-24-2020, 12:10 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron View Post
... just gotta try it for yourself rather than relying on hearsay.

The RE71Rs are completely fine for daily driving, the noise level even with heavily unbalanced wear is tolerable for daily and/or road trips, and with minimal tread depth they are fine in heavy rain if cautiously driven. I've driven 3, 5, and 6 hr one-way trips with RE11s and RE71s over the past 3 yrs and neither were a problem. Those same sets of tires accumulated thousands of street miles between events/daily use without appreciable wear. Mind you, I wouldn't wanna do it with a 1990 Civic with no sound insulation, but with a BMW it's totally acceptable. Even the NT01 didn't seem all that bad noise wise, but they just don't inspire the same confidence level as true-street tires in adverse conditions. Maybe my ears are going bad?!
Not hearsay on my end, I speak from personal experience on my own car and from track buddy cars I've ridden in on the street. What is tolerable to one may not be tolerable to another. The fact you think NT01s "didn't seem all that bad noise wise" tells me we are WORLDS apart from what we consider to be too noisy for the street . I can hear my NT01s growling loudly just driving around the paddock, driving them on the street for any amount of time would probably give me a migraine .

I'm not anti-RE71 by any means (or any other track tire alternative for that matter), but I am very pro dedicated track wheel/tire setup. Who wants to put track wear on a nice set of street tires, then live with the fallout for the other 350+ days a year that we aren't on the track ?

That all said, in the end, it's good to have choices. It's what allows us as individuals to decide on a product that best meets our personal criteria. For me personally, I try to balance ultimate performance vs cost/benefit. Long term consumables cost is a very important factor to me, more important then shaving a few tenths, as it has a very big impact on the number of track days I potentially do in a year. If RE71s were the same cost, then sure, I'd run them, if no other other reason then it would be nice to not have to pit in and switch back to street tires if it starts to rain. Neither of the tire options being discussed here are shit track tires, so I just don't think labeling them as good/bad is helpful. Trade-offs any direction you choose to go, having realistic conversations about pros/cons about each option is what helps the community learn
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      01-24-2020, 02:11 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
Not hearsay on my end, I speak from personal experience on my own car and from track buddy cars I've ridden in on the street. What is tolerable to one may not be tolerable to another. The fact you think NT01s "didn't seem all that bad noise wise" tells me we are WORLDS apart from what we consider to be too noisy for the street . I can hear my NT01s growling loudly just driving around the paddock, driving them on the street for any amount of time would probably give me a migraine .

I'm not anti-RE71 by any means (or any other track tire alternative for that matter), but I am very pro dedicated track wheel/tire setup. Who wants to put track wear on a nice set of street tires, then live with the fallout for the other 350+ days a year that we aren't on the track ?

That all said, in the end, it's good to have choices. It's what allows us as individuals to decide on a product that best meets our personal criteria. For me personally, I try to balance ultimate performance vs cost/benefit. Long term consumables cost is a very important factor to me, more important then shaving a few tenths, as it has a very big impact on the number of track days I potentially do in a year. If RE71s were the same cost, then sure, I'd run them, if no other other reason then it would be nice to not have to pit in and switch back to street tires if it starts to rain. Neither of the tire options being discussed here are shit track tires, so I just don't think labeling them as good/bad is helpful. Trade-offs any direction you choose to go, having realistic conversations about pros/cons about each option is what helps the community learn
lol NT-01 sings loud during heavy braking and screams at all turns. Spectators often actually come to my car on the paddock to see what kind of tires I am running. I actually enjoy that tire noise on track but definitely not on street. I do just drive them to track though rather than putting them in back seat. If it rains on the day I would just bring out my Miata.

Even RE-71Rs on my Miata are on dedicated track wheels and I only drive them on street on a way to track because like the you said you want to protect street tires, as well as I don't want to drive the RE-71Rs daily and wear/heat cycle them out.

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      01-24-2020, 03:00 PM   #66
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lol NT-01 sings loud during heavy braking and screams at all turns. Spectators often actually come to my car on the paddock to see what kind of setup I am running. I actually enjoy that tire noise on track but definitely not on street.
Man I must have some atrocious ears or something....
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