Carbon Ceramic Brake Thread

[rhyary]

I trust you guys that the factory F80 CCB is not suitable for lots of trackdays.

The issue is what to do with a CCB rotor that the friction layer has been consumed.

So far the options I uncovered are:
1. Buy a new one and toss the old one
2. Convert to cast iron
3. Refurbish the damaged rotors.

Also, as cars with CCBs are aging out, there are other things to consider such as age, mechanical damage (from something hitting the rotor) and hardware corrosion.

From researching the BMW, Porsche and Ferrari forums I don't get a clear answer.

At the moment, I can't find a clear solution if one wants, for whatever reason, to keep driving with CCB

[NYG]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I trust you guys that the factory F80 CCB is not suitable for lots of trackdays.

The issue is what to do with a CCB rotor that the friction layer has been consumed.

So far the options I uncovered are:
1. Buy a new one and toss the old one
2. Convert to cast iron
3. Refurbish the damaged rotors.

Also, as cars with CCBs are aging out, there are other things to consider such as age, mechanical damage (from something hitting the rotor) and hardware corrosion.

From researching the BMW, Porsche and Ferrari forums I don't get a clear answer.

At the moment, I can't find a clear solution if one wants, for whatever reason, to keep driving with CCB

Convert to cast iron until you're ready to sell.

Sell as is.

If you want to keep the CCBs, get a replacement set and use them for everything except the track.

[rhyary]

I am still trying to understand the resistance to CCB for HPDE.

Is it the price or the technology?

I did a simple search and Girodisc replacement is about $1900. Say a CCB replacement was the same price. Call it $2000.

So for the same price, would you stay with CCB, or convert to cast iron?

From personal experience with E92 M3, I would stay with CCB.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I am still trying to understand the resistance to CCB for HPDE.

Is it the price or the technology?

I did a simple search and Girodisc replacement is about $1900. Say a CCB replacement was the same price. Call it $2000.

So for the same price, would you stay with CCB, or convert to cast iron?

From personal experience with E92 M3, I would stay with CCB.

Ahah the iron witnesses have disappeared

If that were the case, no one would use iron rotors, on the track almost everyone uses iron because going off the track can cause a change of ccb rotors, and spending $10,000 is not the same as $1,500, and this is the only reason....

I have ccb on mine F87 use track/street and I'm not going to change to iron, 32,000 km with 1 set of pads, no screeching noises, no smoke, no fire, no dust...
Awesome brake pedal feel, no iron rotor has the ccb feel....

Where do you plan to send yours to rebuild?

[rhyary]

I have rebuilt mine with Rebrake in Germany.
They now have a new process that makes it a 7 day vs 2 month wait time. So I am thinking about sending it again to them when production starts with the new process. i have time until April season start.

[kevin_at_BW]

We did testing on our own project car (F82 M4 GTMore) to see what options we could recommend to our CCB customers. Broke it down into two parts and supported it all with real track data.

Part 1: Keeping the CCB discs and running Pagid RSC1 pad

Part 2: Swapping out the carbon disc for Girodisc Iron Conversion, keeping the CCB calipers + Pagid RSL29 pads

Hope this helps!

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by kevin_at_BW

We did testing on our own project car (F82 M4 GTMore) to see what options we could recommend to our CCB customers. Broke it down into two parts and supported it all with real track data.

Part 1: Keeping the CCB discs and running Pagid RSC1 pad

Part 2: Swapping out the carbon disc for Girodisc Iron Conversion, keeping the CCB calipers + Pagid RSL29 pads

Hope this helps!

Will you PLEASE hammer PFC to come out with a rotor and pad conversion!!??!!

[rhyary]

@kevin_at_BW
If there is an option to rebuild the friction layer for similar cost to a conversation, wouldn't you say it is a third option?

[JamesClay]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Will you PLEASE hammer PFC to come out with a rotor and pad conversion!!??!!

The wide annulus CCB disc isn't something they have, so they won't have a disc conversion - we do have Girodisc.

PFC pads are coming along for this car and will be ready for testing soon (F8X with CCB calipers - iron AND CCB).

[Andi-M2]

I went with the CCB calipers and steel rotors. Pads are Endless with Castrol SRF and stainless lines. Works without any complaints, so far. 👌🏾
So maybe this could be an option.

[rhyary]

This video shows CCBs fade less:

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by JamesClay

The wide annulus CCB disc isn't something they have, so they won't have a disc conversion - we do have Girodisc.

PFC pads are coming along for this car and will be ready for testing soon (F8X with CCB calipers - iron AND CCB).

Let us know when they are out and the part number? 08 and 11 I hope?

[rhyary]

I asked ChatGPT:

Is cast iron brakes better than carbon ceramic brakes?

This was the answer:

No, carbon ceramic brakes are generally considered to be superior to cast iron brakes in a number of ways. One of the main advantages of carbon ceramic brakes is their much lighter weight, which can help to improve a vehicle's performance and handling. Carbon ceramic brakes also have a much higher heat tolerance than cast iron brakes, which means they can be used more aggressively without experiencing fade. In addition, carbon ceramic brakes produce less brake dust and are less prone to corrosion, which can lead to longer brake life and a cleaner appearance. Finally, carbon ceramic brakes offer improved braking performance compared to cast iron brakes, with shorter stopping distances and better modulation.

That being said, carbon ceramic brakes are also generally much more expensive than cast iron brakes, so they may not be the best choice for everyone. It really depends on your needs and budget.

ChatGPT Dec 15 Version. Free Research Preview. Our goal is to make AI systems more natural and safe to interact with. Your feedback will help us improve.

[RSXDC5]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I asked ChatGPT:

Is cast iron brakes better than carbon ceramic brakes?

This was the answer:

No, carbon ceramic brakes are generally considered to be superior to cast iron brakes in a number of ways. One of the main advantages of carbon ceramic brakes is their much lighter weight, which can help to improve a vehicle's performance and handling. Carbon ceramic brakes also have a much higher heat tolerance than cast iron brakes, which means they can be used more aggressively without experiencing fade. In addition, carbon ceramic brakes produce less brake dust and are less prone to corrosion, which can lead to longer brake life and a cleaner appearance. Finally, carbon ceramic brakes offer improved braking performance compared to cast iron brakes, with shorter stopping distances and better modulation.

That being said, carbon ceramic brakes are also generally much more expensive than cast iron brakes, so they may not be the best choice for everyone. It really depends on your needs and budget.

ChatGPT Dec 15 Version. Free Research Preview. Our goal is to make AI systems more natural and safe to interact with. Your feedback will help us improve.

Yup, they are better, but less durable and at a much higher price point for purchase/replacement. Since our cars don’t have brake cooling, the CCB rotors/pads overheat and die extra fast on track. On the street and spirited driving is the sweet spot for CCB.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by RSXDC5

Yup, they are better, but less durable and at a much higher price point for purchase/replacement. Since our cars don’t have brake cooling, the CCB rotors/pads overheat and die extra fast on track. On the street and spirited driving is the sweet spot for CCB.

Yes, heat is the enemy. Unless you have good brake cooling they will literally vaporize. Using a Proceq Carbotech you are just looking at the 3 disks and using weight and that is a barn door approach to an actual value validity. the website even have a BMW CCB in their pics. Of course they are gonzo expensive and only a Porsche dealer has them and not all of them.

I am working on a track brake cooling package for the front and rear to sell and should be available by March/April. Price TBD. Will be testing temperatures at VIR next month.

[to_riffic]

I run CCBs and prior to the brake cooling, I saw temps as high as 177 degrees C, but after, it has been about 20 degrees C less. And the fade has been less apparent than before. Glad I got them installed.

https://burkhart-engineering.com/en/...or-m2-f87-bmw/

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by to_riffic

I run CCBs and prior to the brake cooling, I saw temps as high as 177 degrees C, but after, it has been about 20 degrees C less. And the fade has been less apparent than before. Glad I got them installed.

https://burkhart-engineering.com/en/...or-m2-f87-bmw/

Where were you taking the temps and on which car? How many track hours do you have on your rotors? Those scoops are drawing hot air from the oil coolers. They help. My units are going to draw ambient air from under the car.

[to_riffic]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Where were you taking the temps and on which car? Those scoops are drawing hot air from the oil coolers. They help. My units are going to draw ambient air from under the car.

M2 CS. It draws air from the front. Existing brake ducts. I know and feel the difference before and after.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by to_riffic

M2 CS. It draws air from the front. Existing brake ducts. I know and feel the difference before and after.

How many track hours do you have on your rotors?

[to_riffic]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

How many track hours do you have on your rotors?

Enough to need to replace the fronts soon.

[rhyary]

My Carbon Cermaic Disk just came back from Rebrake with a new friction layer made of Silicon Carbide. I will be testing this experiment disk (CCM-R with Rebrake Friction Layer aka RFL) on my driver front, while the passenger will be my untreated CCM-R.

I will be testing three things:
1. CCM-R is quite rare - Only Horacan STO and McLaren Senna using it on prodicrion cars, so Rebrake has little experience with this type and mine is the first attempt to bind RFL to CCM-R. The test is how well RFL binds to CCM-R.

2. Will be testing the RFL friction coefficent compares to CCM-R. If the car pulls to one side I would know that the RFL has a different friction coefficent. A test drive showed no difference from what I am used to, and no pulling to one side or another

3. Longevity. I know how many tackdays I did with a new CCM-R, and how many brake pads been used. And I will be able to tell if the new layer consumes more or less brake pads. For refrence - I consume one set of front pads on a 3-Day event at Watkins Glen International (WGI)

Back to the F80 - The F80 comes with the same friction layer that Rebrake manufacture and bind to used discs. We have already bound RFL to many CCB type CCBH (F80 ccb type is CCBH) so this is no longer an experiment stage.

Pictures of before and after.
ignore the spacer.

[jaylazy2020]

Originally Posted by Andi-M2

I went with the CCB calipers and steel rotors. Pads are Endless with Castrol SRF and stainless lines. Works without any complaints, so far. 👌🏾
So maybe this could be an option.

I have the oem 400mm front and 380 rear 2NH set up with gold calipers

They look great but despite converting to braided lines and SRF fluid the pedal still feels spongy.

Only thing I can think of is to get another standard bleed done and the the iSTA abs module bleed done.

Just wanted to ask you if you have any advice?