Detailed M4 HPDE track day review - Update - June 13/15

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Traction control, stability control, and ABS are all banned in F1.

With that said, every F1 team would use the technology--racing designed systems, not the stuff we have in our road cars--if they were allowed to (and hell, many teams do attempt to use it even when they AREN'T allowed to!). The stuff we have in our cars is very intrusive, even at the most relaxed settings, and waiting until a student is very fast before "letting them" (as you put it) turn off the electronic aids is a sure fire way to deeply ingrain bad habits. But hey, everyone has their teaching methods.

+1

Instructing a student with it on or off is different matter than what I do personally. I will never tell a student either way, I just adjust my coaching according to their preferences. I do agree whole-heartedly that with intrusive systems, newer drivers do tend to develop few bad habits.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

It's an M car... duh...

There are no overheating issues with the 1M either....

yes it does...it happens to the best of turbos. here's one where I wasn't even pushing him and about the 4th or 5th lap he's done.

edit: ARGHHH I chose the URL at a timestamp but it won't let me....go to 11:22.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

yes it does...it happens to the best of turbos. here's one where I wasn't even pushing him and about the 4th or 5th lap he's done.

edit: ARGHHH I chose the URL at a timestamp but it won't let me....go to 11:22.

Thanks for this. I've got the video playing in the background while I work, just so I can listen to the audio

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Thanks for this. I've got the video playing in the background while I work, just so I can listen to the audio

[M4TW]

Originally Posted by FTS

+1

Instructing a student with it on or off is different matter than what I do personally. I will never tell a student either way, I just adjust my coaching according to their preferences. I do agree whole-heartedly that with intrusive systems, newer drivers do tend to develop few bad habits.

As one of the few novice drivers on this forum, I'll pipe in to say that I feel comfortable with my plan of starting off with my DSC security blanket, progressing to MDM and perhaps from there to DSC fully off. Sure, the nannies will prevent me from experiencing the full consequences my stupidity, but I would rather be yelled at by an instructor than a guard rail.

I think that DSC on for now is good enough for learning the basics of piloting a car around a track, trying to be smooth and questing after the right driving line. I expect that this will be occupying my attention for quite a while. Meanwhile, I have all winter to learn about the finer limits of adhesion in my rocket ship from trying out the various modes on winter roads.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by M4TW

As one of the few novice drivers on this forum, I'll pipe in to say that I feel comfortable with my plan of starting off with my DSC security blanket, progressing to MDM and perhaps from there to DSC fully off. Sure, the nannies will prevent me from experiencing the full consequences my stupidity, but I would rather be yelled at by an instructor than a guard rail.

I think that DSC on for now is good enough for learning the basics of piloting a car around a track, trying to be smooth and questing after the right driving line. I expect that this will be occupying my attention for quite a while. Meanwhile, I have all winter to learn about the finer limits of adhesion in my rocket ship from trying out the various modes on winter roads.

imo dsc fully on is a complete waste. mdm is fine, as it still wont let you spin unless you do something completely insane. and then, dsc wouldn't save you either most likely

contrary to what people say, imo mdm doesn't let you slide at all

[gthal]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

imo dsc fully on is a complete waste. mdm is fine, as it still wont let you spin unless you do something completely insane. and then, dsc wouldn't save you either most likely

contrary to what people say, imo mdm doesn't let you slide at all

Agreed. MDM is fine even for novice drivers IMO. It won't, in my experience, let the car get too far out of line. I'd start with MDM but everyone should do what they are comfortable with.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by gthal

Agreed. MDM is fine even for novice drivers IMO. It won't, in my experience, let the car get too far out of line. I'd start with MDM but everyone should do what they are comfortable with.

I see a lot of people on here advising to turn DSC off, it's too intrusive, etc. Drivers should only do what they are comfortable with. We are not racing and the goal should be to drive home at the end of the day. You work your way up to it and only turn off the nannies when ready.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

I see a lot of people on here advising to turn DSC off, it's too intrusive, etc. Drivers should only do what they are comfortable with. We are not racing and the goal should be to drive home at the end of the day. You work your way up to it and only turn off the nannies when ready.

truth

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

imo dsc fully on is a complete waste. mdm is fine, as it still wont let you spin unless you do something completely insane. and then, dsc wouldn't save you either most likely

contrary to what people say, imo mdm doesn't let you slide at all

Yes, You can slide the car with even stock MDM on. The driver has to to be smooth with the initial steering inputs and It has to be a small angle but absolutely the system does allow some slip angle. When the dsc cuts in it does so quickly and you definitely get the " penalty box" and can't accelerate.


Euro MDM allows a far greater slip angle however. It also will allow the driver to stay in the power ( ie no penalty box). Make an abrupt maneuver however and you can get the penalty box effect but for the most part it generally doesnt do that unless the driver really makes a large change in steering angle.

[FTS]

I certainly support all that is said here; one recommendation I have for all levels of drivers is to spend regular and on-going time on the skidpad when available.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by M4isKing

yes it does...it happens to the best of turbos. here's one where I wasn't even pushing him and about the 4th or 5th lap he's done.

edit: ARGHHH I chose the URL at a timestamp but it won't let me....go to 11:22.

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See " charge pipe" failure. I'll bet dollars to donuts that's what happened.

??? Hopefully this does not become an M4 issue. ??

Another possibility is an " aftermarket tune " throwing a Check engine light code or an issue with aftermarket exhaust components that don't include catalytic converters.. So.. was the car stock or modified?

Did you discuss with the driver what happened or are you just * assuming* that the issue was heat related ?

My stock tune 1M has functioned flawlessly at ambient temps in eexcess of 104 degrees in tx summer heat at eagles canyon raceway. It's also run in 95 degree plus temps in Colorado's thinner air at high plains race way.


Surf to the 1m section and search a bit and see what you find. I wouldn't make the comment I did without knowing what's what.

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

See " charge pipe" failure. I'll bet dollars to donuts that's what happened.

??? Hopefully this does not become an M4 issue. ??

Another possibility is an " aftermarket tune " throwing a Check engine light code or an issue with aftermarket exhaust components that don't include catalytic converters.. So.. was the car stock or modified?

Did you discuss with the driver what happened or are you just * assuming* that the issue was heat related ?

My stock tune 1M has functioned flawlessly at ambient temps in eexcess of 104 degrees in tx summer heat at eagles canyon raceway. It's also run in 95 degree plus temps in Colorado's thinner air at high plains race way.


Surf to the 1m section and search a bit and see what you find. I wouldn't make the comment I did without knowing what's what.

this is a stock car. he's always at cca events, i believe he is the head of autox events. I don't know if he got back on track but it was very very very hot that day 110F+.

i'm just saying, it can happen - maybe it is charge pipes (my co-workers flew off his 135i lol), maybe its limp, either way, it must have sucked!

[GrumpyBimmerFan]

Can u describe the z06 vs m4? I just got rid of my z06 and am in the market for m4, dont really like c7. Looking for both daily driving and track.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by kotik

Can u describe the z06 vs m4? I just got rid of my z06 and am in the market for m4, dont really like c7. Looking for both daily driving and track.

I don't have enough experience in a Z06 to make a meaningful comparison. I have time in one at the track but it was limited and some time ago.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by kotik

Can u describe the z06 vs m4? I just got rid of my z06 and am in the market for m4, dont really like c7. Looking for both daily driving and track.

All parameters being equal a C6z06 is a tad quicker than an M4 on the track. M3/4 WAY more comfortable as a DD though and makes for a better dual purpose car.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

All parameters being equal a C6z06 is a tad quicker than an M4 on the track. M3/4 WAY more comfortable as a DD though and makes for a better dual purpose car.

The C6 Z06 is generally faster than a Stingray. The Stingray is faster than the M4 on almost all tracks... some by a significant margin. IMO, the C6 Z06 is notably more than a tad faster than the M4. Look at its 'Ring times... 7:22 for the Z06 and 7:52 for the M4... 30 second spread. That's more than a "tad" faster... it's a rape and pillage

I agree with the balance of your post

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by gthal

The C6 Z06 is comparable to and, on many tracks, faster than a Stingray. The Stingray is faster than the M4 on almost all tracks... some by a significant margin. IMO, the C6 Z06 is notably more than a tad faster than the M4. Look at its 'Ring times... 7:22 for the Z06 and 7:52 for the M4... 30 second spread. That's more than a "tad" faster... it's a rape and pillage

I agree with the balance of your post

the z06 is absolutely significantly faster than a c7 vette

both are faster than an m3.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

the z06 is absolutely significantly faster than a c7 vette

both are faster than an m3.

I changed my post as it wasn't worded quite correctly... however, I would note that on some tracks, the spread between the C6 Z06 and the C7 Z51 is relatively small. I've seen some tests where the gap was almost non-existent. However, generally and especially on bigger tracks, the Z is faster.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by gthal

The C6 Z06 is generally faster than a Stingray. The Stingray is faster than the M4 on almost all tracks... some by a significant margin. IMO, the C6 Z06 is notably more than a tad faster than the M4. Look at its 'Ring times... 7:22 for the Z06 and 7:52 for the M4... 30 second spread. That's more than a "tad" faster... it's a rape and pillage

I agree with the balance of your post

Faster, but doesn't totally bend the M3/4 over and treat it roughly. The 7:22 was on Cup tires IIRC, most C6z ring times in the 7:30-7:40 range.

I guess my point was that at an average HDPE event you can hang with a lot of corvettes in your F8x but it's very driver skill dependent.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Faster, but doesn't totally bend the M3/4 over and treat it roughly. The 7:22 was on Cup tires IIRC, most C6z ring times in the 7:30-7:40 range.

I guess my point was that at an average HDPE event you can hang with a lot of corvettes in your F8x but it's very driver skill dependent.

Agreed.

[GrumpyBimmerFan]

Ive done about 100 laps on the ring, few sessions at spa and hockenheim. About half half in my z06 and the other half in my old e90 m3(and half of those were after supercharger). I had best of 745 on semislick in the sc m3, and 7:55 in my z06 with pss tires. Z06 is A LOT scarier to drive, and harder to handle, but did seem a bit faster. Ive only managed 805 in m3 on street tires. I was too scared to approach the limits of the z06, but had no problems on m3. I wonder how new m3 will stack up... A lot has to do with confidence in ur car...