DSC OFF for novice?

[MyFragileHalogen]

I've been learning a lot from all our gurus' knowledge here and loving it. I acknowledge that DSC OFF is recommended to prevent overheating brakes/accelerating pad wear as well as not to develop bad habits.

I've been on euro MDM and was quite happy with it. I think it did make it easier to put the car back in control whenever I oversteered and lost grip, needing just one or two countersteering. Once I unintentionally set DSC OFF and ended up oversteering the car, it took more number of opposite wheel turns to get it back as the tail was dancing more violently (scary oscillation!).

Also my local track (PIR) has a straight with a slight turning radius. It's a bit bumpy that makes DSC light blinks and it's like 125mph with 0.7G to the left (says m-laptimer) while under full throttle.

I realized now I am accelerating and braking hard enough to destroy the stock brake pads and needing to use track pads. Would it be recommended to turn DSC off and be more cautious, or staying with MDM would be safer and grant a longer term happiness to me (by not crashing )? Or does it depend on each person's competency level and would be hard to advise in general? Thanks!

[YMB_M3]

Really depends on how competent you are in terms of car control. Maybe spend a day at the skid pad to practice managing oversteer and take it from there. Also when you're driving with euro mdm are you noticing it kick in a lot/ flash? In my experience euro mdm will teach you how to manage the steering in minor oversteer situations but dsc off will also require precision with the throttle. You can practice the throttle aspect of it on the skidpad

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by YMB_M3

Really depends on how competent you are in terms of car control. Maybe spend a day at the skid pad to practice managing oversteer and take it from there. Also when you're driving with euro mdm are you noticing it kick in a lot/ flash? In my experience euro mdm will teach you how to manage the steering in minor oversteer situations but dsc off will also require precision with the throttle. You can practice the throttle aspect of it on the skidpad

It only blinked during the high speed sweeping straight, which is scary I am not sure if I can manage high speed oversteer.

Besides that I don't notice it kicking in until something really happens. Here's a video (It's not an example while a turn-in though) where I didn't swing it out correctly and was causing a power oversteer. From the log, it looks like dsc cuts the throttle after the car snaps to the left, (A question here, wouldn't the sudden power cut make the front dive in and exacerbate the situation?). Video: http://sendvid.com/288jbbob But it's not 100% clear whether it was me lifting throttle.

It's a sound advice to try out the skid pad. Think I will need to ask the local people where I can practice it. THanks!

[YMB_M3]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

It only blinked during the high speed sweeping straight, which is scary I am not sure if I can manage high speed oversteer.

Besides that I don't notice it kicking in until something really happens. Here's a video (It's not an example while a turn-in though) where I didn't swing it out correctly and was causing a power oversteer. From the log, it looks like dsc cuts the throttle after the car snaps to the left, (A question here, wouldn't the sudden power cut make the front dive in and exacerbate the situation?). Video: http://sendvid.com/288jbbob But it's not 100% clear whether it was me lifting throttle.

It's a sound advice to try out the skid pad. Think I will need to ask the local people where I can practice it. THanks!

If the high speed sweeping straight that you're talking about is banked then it could confuse the euro mdm, causing it to repeatedly flash. If not, maybe try to turn the wheel more smoothly and gradually and see if it still flashes. Sometimes MDM intervention is inconsistent though so it could be slowing you down and flashing even when it's not necessary to keep the car from sliding.

I believe that MDM will cut the throttle but apply brakes at the appropriate corners of the car to try to prevent a spin. It's hard to tell from that video without seeing steering input but it looks like you reacted late to the back coming out. Countersteering earlier rather than later would most likely have kept the car in check and feeding throttle while/after unwinding the wheel would have probably prevented the oversteer.

[Rempt]

From the video it just looks like you loss the ass as you accelerated through the turn that's all......

[MaynardZed]

You'll need to turn DSC off at some point when you're ready to progress as a driver. Truth is, you'll need to have some spins, near spins, 2/4 offs to learn where your and the car's limit is and to get better. You just hope to not hit something hard, so maybe don't push 9/10ths+ when at high speed or near something hard like a wall. Every track has better places to go off than others so learn where these are and get track insurance as a safety net.

Ditto on the skid pad or drifting course. Very valuable to me when I started out.

Your video is an example of a nice little oversteer that could've been easily corrected if you had DSC off, stayed in the throttle (yes, lifting there whether it be your foot or MDM cutting in made the situation worse), and countersteered. You lost the opportunity to learn something there because you had MDM on.

[michael3435]

I am a big proponent of turning the traction completely off. You have to learn how to control a car at some point if you want to be a better driver. After I had the car for some months, I got a feel for when the dsc light would pop on (you can feel it as well). I had to learn how to counter steer and control a car properly living in the northeast with the snow anyway. I went to a parking lot multiple times and pushed the car until I would lose traction and corrected it and I now have a ton of fun doing autocross which I highly recommend. The real issue is throttle control. Too much gas during a turn or sudden gas = back pops out (even in a straight line). You have to learn how to feel it and correct it no matter what type of car you're in.

The others are right, you'll need to spin out a few times and in the video it appears as though you just lost control of the rear. Just find a controlled/safe environment and leave your ego at the door. This is an excellent car to learn how to be a better driver on

[CanAutM3]

IMO, that is a decision only YOU can take.

There are inherently more risks when running with DSC off that can have quite dramatic consequences. You need to be fully conscious of those risks and consequences when going DSC off.

If you do elect to go DSC off, I believe it is better to do it early in your learning progression. I have seen way too many Intermediate/Advanced drivers have bad mishaps because they had become decently fast but were relying too much on the aids to get that speed. They therefore developped nasty habits and never really learned proper car control. When they finally decided to go DSC off (to become faster), those bad habits came back to bite them with very unfortunate consequences.

Further, it is not because you decide to go DSC off that you can never turn it back on. Choose your sessions where DSC will be off. Avoid the early (not yet warmed up) and late sessions (tired) and ones with poor track conditions (wet/dirty track). I still use MDM in some of those conditions (wet track, first couple of laps of the day).

Your video is a perfect example of a bad driving habit. It is called pinching the steering wheel, where one applies more throttle without unwinding the steering wheel. I keep repeating this to my students, if you can't open the wheel, you can't apply more throttle. The situation was made worse because you did not have the proper reflexes once the rear stepped out. You took too long to correct and when you did, you over corrected and lifted the throttle completely, resulting in the tank slap. All perfectly normal for a novice driver BTW .

My 2 cents for whatever it's worth

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by Rempt

From the video it just looks like you loss the ass as you accelerated through the turn that's all......

Technically this isn't the particular turn-in oversteering, but one noob incident I was able to catch in video. I am already learning a lot from people commenting on it.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Technically this isn't the particular turn-in oversteering, but one noob incident I was able to catch in video. I am already learning a lot from people commenting on it.

One of the most frequently asked questions with widely ranging opinion for and against.

The video and screen grab from M Laptimer are interesting. I've gone over specs of the app and have not found any indication that contradicts my understanding of the throttle graph. Every reference states it's Accelerator Pedal Position as its taking signals from iDrive used for navigation and efficient dynamics.

If you were my student and it's the first time we've been paired, the first things I'll ask...

"Great car. Tell me about it. How long have you had it? Any modifications? Is there anything about the car and your experience with it so far that you want to learn or improve upon?"

I will never tell a student to disengage it as that puts the liability on me. If asked, we'll discuss it after the first session. Skid Pad is a different story.

[zac5]

A little off topic, but all the e9x m3, F8X M3/4 crashed on track locally that I know were on MDM. For me, it's either leave the traction control fully on or turn DSC completely off. It's like ecu tuning, go flash stock ecu or standalone. Piggyback might be the current best solution, but eventually there will be better options.

[ecf34]

FWIW, I spun my car at the last track day while in Euro MDM, so under extreme circumstances it will still let you spin. Up until that point TC had not intervened in any of the previous corners

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Every reference states it's Accelerator Pedal Position as its taking signals from iDrive used for navigation and efficient dynamics.

If you were my student and it's the first time we've been paired, the first things I'll ask...

"Great car. Tell me about it. How long have you had it? Any modifications? Is there anything about the car and your experience with it so far that you want to learn or improve upon?"

I think probably you are correct, but what I am not clear is if I lifted why I step back onto throttle later. So I gotta say probably.. Maybe I can actually experiment it sometime.

I began to notice that every instructor asks me the same kind of question you ask to yours!

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by ecf34

FWIW, I spun my car at the last track day while in Euro MDM, so under extreme circumstances it will still let you spin. Up until that point TC had not intervened in any of the previous corners

Yes. I was on euro EDM in the video.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Thanks guys! I am taking everyone's advice. Planning to be on the skid pad sooner, and will work on focusing on learning car control (with more caution in mind), rather than just trying to go faster.

Oh, CanAutM3's answer should be sticky!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

I think probably you are correct, but what I am not clear is if I lifted why I step back onto throttle later. So I gotta say probably.. Maybe I can actually experiment it sometime.

Can you post more screenshots or the video of your laptimer? It would allow us to understand when the the throttle got cut/re-applied during the mishap.

[tchiers]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

I began to notice that every instructor asks me the same kind of question you ask to yours!

There's a reason for that - It tells us very quickly what kind of student you're likely to be.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Can you post more screenshots or the video of your laptimer? It would allow us to understand when the the throttle got cut/re-applied during the mishap.

Here you go! Since I don't have a Mac to record iphone screen, I chose an old-fashioned way.

Video: http://sendvid.com/04bs6muc

Also from screenshot's speed and steering angle, you can see when throttle was out and in (either by me or car).

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Here you go! Since I don't have a Mac to record iphone screen, I chose an old-fashioned way.

Video: http://sendvid.com/04bs6muc

Also from screenshot's speed and steering angle, you can see when throttle was out and in (either by me or car).

Sport + throttle setting?

To check and see what signals are being output to the Throttle Map on the app, with DSC Fully on, wet road, straight line acceleration, and accelerator pedal all the way into kickdown, throttle graph went smoothly to 100% and stayed there for 1/4 mile. DSC was intervening with power and brake interventions the entire time.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

Here you go! Since I don't have a Mac to record iphone screen, I chose an old-fashioned way.

...

Also from screenshot's speed and steering angle, you can see when throttle was out and in (either by me or car).

FYI, you can mail yourself the session file that you can share with members and can view it in their M laptimer app. But your old-fashioned way works too!

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Sport + throttle setting?

To check and see what signals are being output to the Throttle Map on the app, with DSC Fully on, wet road, straight line acceleration, and accelerator pedal all the way into kickdown, throttle graph went smoothly to 100% and stayed there for 1/4 mile. DSC was intervening with power and brake interventions the entire time.

Thanks for verifying it. That must have been my reflex system kicking in then, which is completely ok for a novice like me anyways.

and yes, sport+ throttle.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

FYI, you can mail yourself the session file that you can share with members and can view it in their M laptimer app. But your old-fashioned way works too!

Right. I just wanted to overlay it with video (for entertainment purpose). Things would be much improved once the m-laptimer gopro integration update comes out!