Is my HPFP dying?

[heitzke]

Cliffnotes:
- FBO + Pure Stage 2+
- in-progress E50 tune via F80Paul

This first log looks straight scary: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a1...729b06b5f4aa2f

Not as bad 2nd log: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a1...90c6256a2982fc

Slightly less bad 3rd: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a1...729b06b5f4aa37

Also quite bad 4th: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a2...729b0633a41e95

At this point I need to stop logging because these all look really bad and don't want to hurt something because i'm totally running out of fuel in spots I wasn't before. Like that first log there, the HPFP pressure totally tanks.

The short answer is yes, I need to see what Paul says but this was also the last log I took had much higher outside temps, IAT, less DA, etc and looked ok: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=619e...90c61ee7cf58bb so i'm trying to troubleshoot and plan a little bit.

Is the problem trying to push E50 on the stock fueling system with these IAT's and DA or has the pump slowly giving up in general?

I'm also just getting closer and closer to just throwing a Dorch kit or PI at it, like I should have already done.

[heitzke]

Ok I diluted down to E20 (was supposed to be 30 but I didn't math correctly, but whatever).

First log shows a similar valley of HPFP pressure in 3rd, not cool: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a2...90c624dd4dc807

Second log about 30s later doesn't show the same pressure problems: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a2...729b0633a41f85

What's the deal here? Why so inconsistent?

[heitzke]

Continuing this as I dig through and log more:

3rd and 4th gear, totally fine pressure? STFT looks consistently strange to me but I also don't know exactly what i'm looking for: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a2...0b4311b85e95d3

4th gear alone: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a2...0b4311b85e95cc HPFP pressure follows the target without any huge drops/dips/valleys

[TopJimmy]

Add the LPFP value so we can see if that's causing the HPFP shortage.

[heitzke]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Add the LPFP value so we can see if that's causing the HPFP shortage.

Oo yes, good call. The one under "other channels" I guess? I didn't see another place to add the value.

I just ran through a couple more logs and damn thing is running great again. No hesitation, no dips in HPFP pressure or anything.

At this point, is the car trolling me or what? I just spent all day tinkering, hypothesizing, worrying and running logs.

[Commanderwiggin]

What's clear to me looking at all of this, is you're running too close to the edge for your fuel system. This being said, everything I'm seeing points to your injectors. Personally I would do 2 things...take the old injectors out and send them to RC Fuel Injection and then share the results. Second, replace the old ones with the S63 EU5's. The HPFP is also on the edge as we're seeing in these logs but not the cause for the misfires which primarily is the injectors but the HPFP pressure being lower will make that issue more prevalent.

Also if you want even more fueling, you can upgrade to a Dorch Lift Kit...at this point your LPFP will be the limiting factor.

Jimmy is right, the LPFP parameter is something good to monitor.

For now, backing off the load is in your best interest...safety factor is your friend.

[heitzke]

Ok thanks TopJimmy Commanderwiggin - y'all are keeping me sane right now. I heard back from Paul last night and he says that it's really odd how rich my AFR are and how far off the target they're falling.

They're always really rich. I've been resetting the learned adaptations every time I'm going to a different ethanol content but the AFR continue to be super rich. Not sure what the deal with that is, especially since bank 1 and 2 follow one another and not like something is sticking out on one bank. Unless it's two similarly leaky injectors lol.

Ran two more logs this morning after resetting the learning adaptations again on E50 and pretty similar stuff:

3-4 pull, total trash: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a3...729b06b5f4b1eb

3-4-5: 5th gear was splendid but 3-4 were trash again: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a3...0b43123be407b0

Paul doesn't think there's any reason we can't get this dialed in. We're just going to be sitting really close to the limits on this, so I think once we're more stable i'll ask to pull it back a bit.

[heitzke]

Adding a new data point to the mix - rolled back to the OTS 2H E30 map to log some afr/fuel trims. Hypothetically if the injectors/fueling system had an issue it would be present regardless of the map being used no?

Let's find out! - https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a4...729b06b5f4b35c

Bank 2 AFR is a touch richer than Bank 1 AFR here, STFT also naturally higher on Bank 2 than Bank 1.STFT starts to rise for Bank 2 up after 6k, then the fuel delivery rate just tanks for a second. Looks like just running out of fuel here as usual.

Interesting thing is how much closer it follows the lambda target than it was on the latest logs for Paul. Yes, they're deviating a bit across banks but really not that much.

The STFT feels a little odd, but then again depending on the log I look at it feels like a crapshoot to determine which is going to be the one to run out of fuel.

Edit: looking back over timing/updates it seems like the issues with not following the target AFR in Paul's maps started right after the Wednesday update I grabbed. From that point forward all AFR are way richer than the target. Interesting.

[heitzke]

Flashed back to Paul's map to grab some direct comparison points and the damn thing is running almost perfect now. I hit a fuel cut once in 3rd out of the few pulls I tried to log (laptop issues) and no problems in 4th or 5th.

Running really well right now and I just don't understand how.

2 x 4th pulls: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a4...0b43123be40953

3 - 4th: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a4...729b0633a42665

Lambdas are all right on point, STFT looking better almost everywhere. What's the deal here?

[Commanderwiggin]

At this point, call it quits and do some work on upgrading your fuel system. Firstly, you need to know when to stop doing these abusive logs over and over. I get trying to get more data points but one bad log is all you need and the issue has been clear since you were on the OTS map.

If I'm helping you be sane, you are not doing the same for me 🤪.

[belittle]

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1778889

Check out my saga. About the same things you are seeing.

As posted on your FB post, long story short, M5 injectors, spool HPFP and a new tuner and no issues anymore. Pretty common now in S55 land of the fueling limits on ethanol mixtures. Changing weather and really good DAs this time of the year shows those limits even more so.

[heitzke]

Originally Posted by belittle

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1778889

Check out my saga. About the same things you are seeing.

As posted on your FB post, long story short, M5 injectors, spool HPFP and a new tuner and no issues anymore. Pretty common now in S55 land of the fueling limits on ethanol mixtures. Changing weather and really good DAs this time of the year shows those limits even more so.

Yeah I think that's where I really need to head to as well. Even if/when this tune is sorted out I have kind of an Icarus thing going with the fuel system.

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

At this point, call it quits and do some work on upgrading your fuel system. Firstly, you need to know when to stop doing these abusive logs over and over. I get trying to get more data points but one bad log is all you need and the issue has been clear since you were on the OTS map.

If I'm helping you be sane, you are not doing the same for me 🤪.

Hahaha i'm trying! I'm an analytical person and love the data - I just want the thing to be consistent and make sense. Fair point on the OTS map too, I've been running out of fuel for some time now and haven't addressed the actual hardware issue.

[TopJimmy]

heitzke
It seems you're overthinking this a bit. Best to indicate yo your tuner what you or Commander think, and let them handle it properly.

[TopJimmy]

Commanderwiggin

So I can learn a little more, what exactly did you see in the log that leads towards the injectors?

Always appreciate your wisdom!
-TJ

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Commanderwiggin

So I can learn a little more, what exactly did you see in the log that leads towards the injectors?

Always appreciate your wisdom!
-TJ

Lambda spikes are the first indication. A few other things I'm sworn to secrecy on with my tuner.

[heitzke]

Paul does think that the issues are bumping up against the injection limit - "I did see a few misses after 6k and I do believe those are due to injection limits."

He made some adjustments to the map and things are moving smoothly again.

At this point i'll make some decisions on how to add more fuel to the setup and take it from there. My only problem is that I do need to have the ability to flash back to the stock tune to roll through emissions.

I'm already dealing with swapping downpipes (not a huge deal to me) but I don't know that the S63 EU5's would run on the factory tune. Then again, at the same time i'm already working on the car yearly to get through emissions, but I also don't want to box myself into something that I can't reasonably work around.

My gut says to go to PI with Motiv Reflex, but again, I've only seen anecdotes it being used by one person here in conjunction with BM3 - or I go ahead and do all the PI, Reflex AND swap tuning software entirely to Ecutek, etc. If I go with PI for additional fueling then I'll keep the ability to reflash to stock since i'm not touching any of the factory fueling system.

[heitzke]

Coming back around to wrap this up for anyone interested. We backed the tune down a bit, running a touch less boost now (~1psi less everywhere) and everything cleaned up really nicely.

3-4th: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a6...90c666e43593e4
3-4th: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61a6...729b4db68e385b

Last logs all look great, HPFP pressure is great, lambdas all being followed perfectly and car is still super quick. I'll address the fueling system next and maybe crank it up when the nice weather hits next year.

Plenty happy with how it feels now, super quick, makes all the good noises and appears to be running nice and safely.

Thanks again for the help Commanderwiggin TopJimmy

[G82 Jesse]

Hey heitzke, glad to see in your most recent logs that your car is running like a dream! I've been following your saga, as you and I have extremely similar builds in progress.

If you recall me from the PS2+ thread, my boost problems still haven't been fixed (as they haven't been addressed yet.. shop is super busy unfortunately..) But while my M3 is in this state of limbo, I've decided to go the whole 9 yards in the near future and bring my car to the absolute limits (of the stock rods). I've got a Nostrum HPFP kit on the way, with Nostrum Stage 1 injectors and a Bend Calibration flex fuel kit. Once my boost problems are accurately diagnosed and fixed, I'm going to upgrade my fueling and run full E85 to target ~700-750whp.

I noticed in this thread you said your car is FBO. What top mounted heat exchanger are you running? The guys at my shop believe my stock unit may be my failure point, causing a boost leak. Just speculation for now. I'm seeing aftermarket units from various companies for anywhere from $550 (which I like) to $2,000+ (which I do not like).

Any suggestions? Are there diminishing returns in performance and quality with these more expensive ones? Thank you!

[heitzke]

Nice JesseH234! That'll be an awesome setup and glad to see you'll have everything taken care of all at once. I was getting really close to the same haha, but i'm holding off for at least another few months given we're about to be in the bad weather season.

Maybe i'll start stocking up parts or something anyway but just not install for a while. I'm trying to figure out what I should do given I need to pass emissions 1x a year here and need to return the car back to a stock map (at least maybe for the next year or two as we're phasing out emissions in my county).

Interested to hear your experience with the Nostrum injectors too. I emailed them the other day seeing about just running those by themselves to alleviate my injection limit a little without going deep into fueling yet. They suggest it *might* run on a stock tune but probably not a good idea and they do require a tune for normal function.

I'm actually still on the stock top mount. Seems like most of them short of a few are *about* the same as the factory unit. It's hard to know on that front but I had been eyeing the Mishimoto unit as the price point isn't the worst but they've also published some materials that actually show improvement over factory.

A lot of others in that slightly cheaper range seem to lean on the fact that they're "bigger than stock, so they're better" without a lot of data to prove that out. T

[TopJimmy]

JesseH234

M5 injectors flow more than the Nostrums. Why pay to have a tuner work up new scaling maps when the M5s are known performers?

[heitzke]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

JesseH234

M5 injectors flow more than the Nostrums. Why pay to have a tuner work up new scaling maps when the M5s are known performers?

True true, the M5's are supposed to flow more than the Nostrum Stg 1. My only hope for the Nostrum units were that they could be dropped in without additional coding and/or run on a stock map but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I also don't really want to be a guinea pig in that situation.

[G82 Jesse]

heitzke TopJimmy

Hm, interesting point. I've actually just been kinda led by my shop to go down the Nostrum pump AND injectors route. It's simply "what they've done in the past", and I didn't consider any other options.

From what I can see, the M5 injectors and the Nostrum injectors are identical units? Both are $999, and both advertise a 33% flow rate increase over stock with 14.45g/s? They look effectively the same to my VERY untrained eye. Is the M5 genuinely better?

As far as tuning goes for the injectors specifically, I will be getting a completely separate custom tune via F80 Paul for flex fuel. I assumed injector compatibility would come with that tune, and I would never be flashing the car OFF that tune. Maybe that's shortsighted.. I can run anything from 91 octane pump gas, all the way to full E85 on a flex fuel tune, no?

Also thanks for the insight on the top mount heitzke, I only would really replace mine if it's found to be the cause of my boost leak. I'm not too concerned about heat soak, as I don't track my car. For reference: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61ae...729b4d1019255d

Just the most bizarre 'up-down-up-down-up-down' from 28psi to 25psi like a light switch past 5k revs... Same with my WGDC jumping to 100% to 85% back and forth. I actually did include my LPFP on that log, and it seems to be operating normally. My HPFP struggles to keep up with the 3900psi demand of the tune, but that's part of the reason why I'm upgrading. I just want to find out what's causing the dang boost leak!