Going from an F80 M3 to a 997/991 911

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Don’t miss out on the opportunity to pay a massive Porsche tax on handmade, imported exhaust piping.

Previous owner of my car installed the “Loud 2” exhaust from Europipe

http://www.europipe.be/index.html

Gundo hack is super cheap, maybe a couple hundred bucks or less. X-pipe is all you need for about $1,000 if not into the Gundo hack sound.

I have the M3 at another house in town, but I will try and pull it over here one day this week and do a side by side video test. The difference in exhaust note and sound lever outside the 2 cars is striking.

[fanatic1]

Got rid of my 2016 civic M4 in 2017 and when I was looking for a new car was looking at a 997.2 GT3. It was pretty close in price, but getting the GT3 track ready (pin hoses, etc) was surprisingly expensive - I track 10+ times/yr. Metzger manual, suspension, brakes and safety gear/seats were a major plus.

But when the CS deals came alive almost a year ago, chose M4CS and been pretty happy. MPE makes sound acceptable and track manners are surprisingly good stock (only camber plates).

Don’t Really need a back seat, but also don’t have room for a trailer and tow vehicle.

997.2 is a really, really fun car to drive and like others have said, pros and cons to each.

[BimmerMan33]

Have driven 997 911 extensively on the streets and canyon roads, while it's fun you don't really feel the rear weight bias clearly. On a track you should feel the advantage of rear engine and a light front end!
What I'm trying to say is that modern 911 including 997 if just driven on the street & canyons feels like a very good sports car which by the way happens to have its engine in the trunk.
I'm sure vintage 911s would remind you of its rearward weight bias on canyon roads - that's what made it fun!
Current 911s are clearly more capable on the track but their rear engine placement isn't of much advantage otherwise... just my opinion...

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by BimmerMan33

Have driven 997 911 extensively on the streets and canyon roads, while it's fun you don't really feel the rear weight bias clearly. On a track you should feel the advantage of rear engine and a light front end!
What I'm trying to say is that modern 911 including 997 if just driven on the street & canyons feels like a very good sports car which by the way happens to have its engine in the trunk.
I'm sure vintage 911s would remind you of its rearward weight bias on canyon roads - that's what made it fun!
Current 911s are clearly more capable on the track but their rear engine placement isn't of much advantage otherwise... just my opinion...

I started racing 911 SCs in 1983 when I was 15/16. These things understeered like pigs and you literally had to learn the art of trail braking to drive them competitively on the track. Then they would snap oversteer if you let off the gas too abruptly or at the wrong time.

Letting off the gas would cause the suspension in the rear to go from negative to positive camber and reduced outside tire's toe in to toe out causing instability due to the semi trailing arm rear suspension the elasticity of the rubber bushings. This "costs effective" suspension was present in the 60s, 70s and early 80s and could be a hand full.

Not sure this made them fun at all as they were tricky to drive at the limits, especially the turbos because you could easily throttle oversteer them when getting back on the gas to correct the instability and the turbos spooled up and hit hard. So you were pretty much screwed unless you got the weight shift just right and kept the rear wheel from throttle oversteer.

The new 911s handle just like the older 911s as far as rear wheel traction and acceleration from spec to track out without the shortcomings of the semi trailing arm rear suspension. I think they used the Weisach system in the 3.2s thought the 997s which allowed the rear wheel to move forward to toe in during deacceleration.

The 997 is the last 911 with that rawness and analogue feel.

[mmmmQuattro]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

I dunno about that. I have been on Rennlist since 2002 and do not see much at all regarding complaints about sound. There are always guys wanting to go louder or more aggressive with any model car, but that does not mean "everyone complaining." Total exaggeration . . .

My GTS is louder than my F80 with valves open at idle and all throttle positions. The GTS also has kind of a flat plane wail to it similar to an Italian. The F80 sounds like a fart can Honda.

Many people do complain, but there's an easier fix

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...h-exhaust.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...h-is-best.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...st-review.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...omparison.html

well my C2S is quieter and higher pitched than my F83. Niether car is standard. The 911 has headers and a gundo hack, the M4 catless downpipes, custom centre and magnaflow rear exhaust.

911:

F83:

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

Many people do complain, but there's an easier fix

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...h-exhaust.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...h-is-best.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...st-review.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...omparison.html

well my C2S is quieter and higher pitched than my F83. Niether car is standard. The 911 has headers and a gundo hack, the M4 catless downpipes, custom centre and magnaflow rear exhaust.

Haha, 3 of those post are just about exhaust upgrades. The first one he does say stock is too quiet, but doesn't he also complaint about artificial exhaust sound NOT being pumped into the cabin? That artificial exhaust sound pumped into the cabin is the epitome of lame!!!!

Neither exhaust sounds good in those videos you attached and you cannot make a decision about volume based on those two videos.

People change out exhaust on Ferrari V8s and the 355 through the 458 are nirvana. The mere fact people upgrade does mean "everyone" thinks it sucks as you put it.

I will grab my 2017 F80 ZCP and bring it over here this week and do a side by side comparison on the same video loop. As I said before, my 997.2 is a GTS and it has a glorious sound and is much louder than the F80 ZCP which candidly sounds like shyte. The GTS really shines in the upper rev range where it has a high pitched scream. That is the way a sports car should sound.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

Many people do complain, but there's an easier fix

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...h-exhaust.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...h-is-best.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...st-review.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...omparison.html

well my C2S is quieter and higher pitched than my F83. Niether car is standard. The 911 has headers and a gundo hack, the M4 catless downpipes, custom centre and magnaflow rear exhaust.

911:

F83:

No offense meant but there’s a raspiness in both those setups that I personally don’t prefer

The stock sports exhausts sound better for both those cars, in my opinion

It’s a good perspective on the mods and track setup costs needed for the p cars also. It’s not necessarily just “trade in m3 and go”

[mmmmQuattro]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

No offense meant but there’s a raspiness in both those setups that I personally don’t prefer

The stock sports exhausts sound better for both those cars, in my opinion

It’s a good perspective on the mods and track setup costs needed for the p cars also. It’s not necessarily just “trade in m3 and go”

I totally agree about the raspiness - I am not happy with the way either car sounds in both stock or modded form.

I used exactly the same GoPro to record both videos, so you can hear how much lower and deeper the F83 is.

[mmmmQuattro]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Haha, 3 of those post are just about exhaust upgrades.
The mere fact people upgrade does mean "everyone" thinks it sucks as you put it.

I never said that the 911 sound sucks - just that 'everyone' change from standard. Is 'everyone' an exaggeration, sure - but this is a car forum... I wanted to point out to the OP that unless you get the right car and factory options, it may not please.

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

As I said before, my 997.2 is a GTS and it has a glorious sound and is much louder than the F80 ZCP which candidly sounds like shyte. The GTS really shines in the upper rev range where it has a high pitched scream. That is the way a sports car should sound.

I agree a 997.2 GTS (which has the sports exhaust on it) sounds good and a F80 should sound better from factory.
A standard 997.1s sounds way to dull and boring.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

I never said that the 911 sound sucks - just that 'everyone' change from standard. Is 'everyone' an exaggeration, sure - but this is a car forum... I wanted to point out to the OP that unless you get the right car and factory options, it may not please.




I agree a 997.2 GTS (which has the sports exhaust on it) sounds good and a F80 should sound better from factory.
A standard 997.1s sounds way to dull and boring.

Not sure mics pick up sound real well that close and better gauge is drive by.

Is yours a .1 or .2

Is it an S?

Does it have PSE?

I think changing the intake will actually give a great sound improvement at higher revs. That and an X-Pipe should sound fine.

[mmmmQuattro]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Is yours a .1 or .2

Is it an S?

Does it have PSE?

I think changing the intake will actually give a great sound improvement at higher revs. That and an X-Pipe should sound fine.

It's a 997.1 S, with headers and a Gundo hack and the hemoholtz resonator bypass for the intake. I looked at a fabspeed dual cone intake, then I thought GT3 throttle body...

I never wanted the Gundo hack, as I don't like the raspy non-resonated sound.

I went in last week to have a full custom system with an X-pipe, but the fabricator suggested that for a couple of hundred dollars, why not try the Gundo hack?

Which intake would you recommend?

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

I started racing 911 SCs in 1983 when I was 15/16. These things understeered like pigs and you literally had to learn the art of trail braking to drive them competitively on the track. Then they would snap oversteer if you let off the gas too abruptly or at the wrong time.

Letting off the gas would cause the suspension in the rear to go from negative to positive camber and reduced outside tire's toe in to toe out causing instability due to the semi trailing arm rear suspension the elasticity of the rubber bushings. This "costs effective" suspension was present in the 60s, 70s and early 80s and could be a hand full.

Not sure this made them fun at all as they were tricky to drive at the limits, especially the turbos because you could easily throttle oversteer them when getting back on the gas to correct the instability and the turbos spooled up and hit hard. So you were pretty much screwed unless you got the weight shift just right and kept the rear wheel from throttle oversteer.

The new 911s handle just like the older 911s as far as rear wheel traction and acceleration from spec to track out without the shortcomings of the semi trailing arm rear suspension. I think they used the Weisach system in the 3.2s thought the 997s which allowed the rear wheel to move forward to toe in during deacceleration.

The 997 is the last 911 with that rawness and analogue feel.

Remember driving 911 SC back in the day and experiencing exactly that, TTO and high “polar moment of inertia” come to mind

[Mthrice]

I suggest one of each, hard to chose most days

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

Which intake would you recommend?

How about the intake manifold and airbox and exhaust from a cup car

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro

It's a 997.1 S, with headers and a Gundo hack and the hemoholtz resonator bypass for the intake. I looked at a fabspeed dual cone intake, then I thought GT3 throttle body...

I never wanted the Gundo hack, as I don't like the raspy non-resonated sound.

I went in last week to have a full custom system with an X-pipe, but the fabricator suggested that for a couple of hundred dollars, why not try the Gundo hack?

Which intake would you recommend?

Yeah, I think the fabspeed dual cone should provide an induction sound comparable to that of the GTS.

https://www.fabspeed.com/porsche-997...tem-2005-2008/

Some guys swear by the Gundo hack. I guess it is supposed to mimic the PSE with the valves open, but I don't think it is the same. I am more into high pitched, F1 like sound. Induction plus X pipe with your Gundo would be a great place to start since you already have that done.