"Regular" auto insurance that includes HPDE in US (Texas)?

[JoeKixxon]

I've searched this pretty well and the best thread I've found is a few years old. It's helpful, but the info may be out of date. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286902
Of course I've asked the Google as well, and there are plenty of offers for HPDE specific insurance, but is there a carrier that offers regular daily auto insurance that includes high perf driving / track days (not racing)? I've already verified my policy excludes HPDE.

I'm considering the foundations of road racing class here. http://www.drivewayaustin.com/#!foun...d-racing/k7yyo
But I'm just not cool with abandoning insurance and risking my $70k dream car. I can afford the car, but not necessarily ANOTHER car, if something really catastrophic happens. The instructor claims it's safer on their closed track than it is out in traffic, and honestly I don't disagree, but out there I'm (well) insured.

Maybe a better question I should ask the forum is: what's the best way to get in this class with some coverage. Even something with a high deductible would be much better than nothing. Thanks!!

[MaynardZed]

What's wrong with using Lockton? I don't know of any "regular" insurance that specifically includes HPDE anymore as some of our forums members have unfortunately found out.

[Reach]

Unfortunately it doesn't really work like that. Allowable exclusions are done at the state level, not per individual carrier. What works in one state won't in another. When you see the cost of Lockton's plans, you'll understand why they can't bake it into "standard" insurance, and you probably wouldn't want to. Premiums would go through the roof.

[tadmcmichael]

Saw on another thread that Farmers only had an exclusion for timed events. As others have said though, could be state specific.

As far as the track being safer than the road, I would disagree. A car has been totaled at each of the last two events I attended (about a month apart). This is at Atlanta Motorsports Park, which is pretty forgiving if you get off track.

[ecf34]

From what my friend told me, here in Louisiana your insurance will cover your first HPDE incident as long as it's not timed, based on the logic that HPDE is just another form of driver's education. However, they will promptly drop you afterwards.

However, this is based on one incident so take that with a grain of salt.

[d k]

USAA will cover track events as long as its a 'non competitive', non timed event.

[tchiers]

Originally Posted by d k

USAA will cover track events as long as its a 'non competitive', non timed event.

Not in Texas, they won't. Here they changed the policy language years ago to unambiguously exclude HPDE.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by tadmcmichael

Saw on another thread that Farmers only had an exclusion for timed events. As others have said though, could be state specific.

Most insurance companies have timed-event exclusions. Those apply to autoXs, but not DEs.
A few used to have explicit HPDE inclusions, like High Point Insurance that used to advertise to BMW CCA members. However, after HPI got acquired by Plymouth Rock, they are no longer explicitly siting HPDE coverage.... even though PR is still marketing through BMW CCA.

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

What's wrong with using Lockton? I don't know of any "regular" insurance that specifically includes HPDE anymore as some of our forums members have unfortunately found out.

It's pretty expensive, and would be a waste of money if your primary auto insurance covered non-timed HPDE events.
Which most do implicitly (except for state-level policies in TX and MA, I think), though we all would feel better if there was explicit HPDE inclusion.

a

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by afadeev

It's pretty expensive, and would be a waste of money if your primary auto insurance covered non-timed HPDE events.
Which most do implicitly (except for state-level policies in TX and MA, I think), though we all would feel better if there was explicit HPDE inclusion.
a

Yup, it's about $400 for a weekend, but better than playing Russian roulette with your primary insurance company IMO. We are driving around in $70K cars and I'll bet that's only half of a monthly payment for some of us.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Yup, it's about $400 for a weekend, but better than playing Russian roulette with your primary insurance company IMO. We are driving around in $70K cars and I'll bet that's only half of a monthly payment for some of us.

I think the motivation for this thread is understanding whether everyday auto insurance would cover HPDE or not. I've been doing DEs for 20+ years, and the vast majority of the participants have been relying on the primary auto insurance. Very few people I know have ever had to make claims on them, but they all got paid out. Knock on wood.

It's fairly easy to confirm - request your insurance policy's exclusion list. In some states (TX, MA), it will be the same for all companies. In others, they will all differ. I can almost guarantee that you will find an exclusion for "timed events" (time trials, club racing, etc). What you want to confirm is whether, or not, there is an exclusion for "non-competition track events" or "drive education events". Usually, there isn't. Just like there isn't an exclusion for driving on a highway, or a byway, or a private roads, etc. What's not excluded, is covered.

Which is also why all BMW CCA DE event organizers request that you do not time your runs, or record your times anywhere.

In years gone by, there were insurance companies (e.g.: High Point) that explicitly advertised that HPDE events were fully covered. That does not seam to be the current trend, but that doesn't mean that you are not covered either.

Russian roulette comparison is largely the sales pitch from the insurance companies selling track insurance. If you are comfortable buying 2x insurance for the DEs - by all means, do it! If your auto insurance company excludes HPDEs - do it, or get a new primary auto insurance provider.

If you have other uses for $400/weekend, check your insurance policy's exclusion list first before making an informed decision!

YMMV,
a

[Kung Fu English]

Not to necro, but didn't want to start a new thread.

I have only this in my exclusions:

13. Loss to "your covered auto" or any
"non-owned auto", located inside a facility
designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearrange

Would that mean my HDPE should be covered?

[tchiers]

Post the rest of paragraph 13.

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by tchiers

Post the rest of paragraph 13.

That's all of 13.

12. Loss to any "non-owned auto" being maintained
or used by any person while employed
or otherwise engaged in the "business" of:
a. Selling;
b. Repairing;
c. Servicing;
d. Storing; or
e. Parking;
vehicles designed for use on public highways.
This includes road testing and delivery.

13. Loss to "your covered auto" or any
"non-owned auto", located inside a facility
designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or
speed contest.

14. Loss to, or loss of use of, a "non-owned auto"
rented by:
a. You; or
b. Any "family member";
if a rental vehicle company is precluded from
recovering such loss or loss of use, from you
or that "family member", pursuant to the provisions
of any applicable rental agreement or
state law.

[tchiers]

Safest answer is always to check with your lawyer.

But I would say HPDE is covered because it is not a "racing or speed contest"

Policies that I've seen that do exclude HPDE use language like "speed challenge or exhibition" or "at a facility or on a surface designed for racing, whether or not during a race"

[Woodengun]

It is an EXCLUSION list. Loss while in a racing facility are excluded. That means HPDE events are almost all excluded since most are held at a race track.

[tchiers]

For the exclusion to apply, the incident must BOTH
1. happen "inside a facility designed for racing" and
2. "for the purpose of:" a. ... OR b...

HPDE does not fit the purpose of a or b, so the exclusion does not apply.

[shiv.nandak]

Definition of Race Track:
A race track (or 'racetrack', 'racing track' or 'racing circuit') is a facility built for racing of vehicles, athletes, or animals (e.g. horse racing or greyhound racing). A race track also may feature grandstands or concourses. ... Some motorsport tracks are called speedways.

Anyone who goes to a horse racing track to compete with their horse is not covered

[redpriest]

Sounds like "practicing or preparing for" could be used to exclude you. I mean, sure if you crash your car, maybe you can make your case against a gigantic corporation designed to find any way to NOT pay you out.

[JoeKixxon]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

Not to necro, but didn't want to start a new thread.

"threadsurrected"

Originally Posted by redpriest

Sounds like "practicing or preparing for" could be used to exclude you. I mean, sure if you crash your car, maybe you can make your case against a gigantic corporation designed to find any way to NOT pay you out.

This is the same conclusion I came to. Insurance companies are absolutely in the business of collecting premiums. They are not in the business of paying claims.

[NOLATom]

After seeing the price for just covering one track night, I went with this:

https://www.theopentrack.com/

I actually thought I would not do anymore events after I saw the track night cost, but since I got this, I've decided to set my car up for the track and make as many events as I can. That makes it worth it.

[CSBM5]

As Reach and others have pointed out, insurance coverage is in many cases 100% state-specific such that it doesn't matter what company policy you have...they all have the same mandated (at the state insurance commissioner level) policy language and coverage.

While many here and elsewhere are concerned about *their car* and the situation where they're out $70k, etc, what should be considered is that you don't have any (or hardly any) liability coverage at these events. In the worst case situation, the claim exposure can be many, many multiples of the value of your car. The waiver you and everyone signed, no matter what any event organizer claims, is not some ironclad agreement as court cases have already proven (and numerous ones are in progress like the Summit Point incident where the updated NC policy language will be tested apparently).

Like many state insurance regulations, if you have a NC insurance policy and are at and HPDE/autocross/etc you have no coverage for your personal car, *but* they also limit your liability coverage to $30k per person, $60k per incident which would be a drop in the bucket, potentially, should you be involved in an extremely serious event on track. They have worded the policy language such that having an umbrella liability policy does not help since the trigger level for the umbrella policy is never hit due to the limited level of coverage by the main policy.

Don't take *any* of the above as fact. I'm just posting what I've learned in the past couple of years from my insurance agent and others. Research your policy, read the fine print, and have an attorney friend confirm/deny your conclusions.

As to finding liability coverage for an HPDE or even an autocross event, post any company you can find that will write personal liability coverage for such event participation. Companies like Lockton that the BMWCCA seems to promote do not provide any liability coverage. As far as I've been able find, there are no companies willing to provide liability coverage for HPDE or autocross or rallycross events. There's a financial reason for that situation...one that most ignore as they track/autocross/rallycross their car.

[tchiers]

On Track Insurance now offers a liability policy:

https://ontrackinsurance.com/hpdela/