F8x Li-ion battery costs HOW MUCH ?

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen

knowing if a lead acid can be swapped in is useful information. These lithium batteries arent exactly off the shelf and available everywhere. Knowing if, in a pinch, you can put a lead acid in to get moving is pretty important in case of battery failure. In warmer climates batteries are replaced every 3-4 years due to the heat. If you start pushing that time frame here it gets dicey. After the 3 year mark, you have to really watch how the battery is behaving and its not worth trying to squeeze an extra 6 months out and risk a battery dying on you in the worst possible place and time. Summer time is when they really like to die.

I'm not going to comment on the electronics aspect, but from a size perspective the LI battery is the same size as an available counterpart in lead acid.

[emfo]

Originally Posted by Trued

Keep the battery charged and conditioned with a Swedish CTEK charger for Li-Ion batteries. I have mine connected frequently. I would advise anyone with this kind of battery to always carry that charger in the car. It is not possible to charge with a regular lead battery charger.

Never heard of it.. is this something you have to connect externally every once in a while, or do you install it on the battery itself and it modulates whether to charge or not?

[karussell]

CTEK is the oem supplier for Porsche battery tenders as well. The GT3 RS I specced with the optional Lithium Ion Battery and the charger was identical for either type of battery. it plugs into the the lighter plug or you can connect with mini aligator clips. And no you don't need to keep the car on a battery tender as long as you drive once every 2 weeks. caveat to very cold weather climates. but the support bladder around this car's battery probably helps with thermal management much better than in the stuttgart pony.

here is the porsche battery tender.

http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...t3_electronics

btw the li-ion battery on the gt3 was a $1600 option. as a replacement its over $3k!

[forza1976]

seems legit...

http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...219333404.html

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by forza1976

seems legit...

http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...219333404.html

Thats crazy that the battery makes up 1.5% of the cost of the entire car. Anybody know the weight of that battery?

Edit found the info on weight thanks to EAS.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...11&postcount=1

Mike

[antych]

I read somewhere that it weights about half of the traditional one, 13kg or something like that

[Tiago@VRSF]

That's a lot of money for some weight savings. A normal lead acid battery will work fine, they're not putting the Lithium Ion battery in there because of it's performance, they're putting it in because it's half the weight.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by antych

I read somewhere that it weights about half of the traditional one, 13kg or something like that

Weight of F80 M3 / F82 M4 Lithium Battery
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1004967

[BD SM3RF]

Originally Posted by karussell

CTEK is the oem supplier for Porsche battery tenders as well. The GT3 RS I specced with the optional Lithium Ion Battery and the charger was identical for either type of battery. it plugs into the the lighter plug or you can connect with mini aligator clips. And no you don't need to keep the car on a battery tender as long as you drive once every 2 weeks. caveat to very cold weather climates. but the support bladder around this car's battery probably helps with thermal management much better than in the stuttgart pony.

here is the porsche battery tender.

http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...t3_electronics

btw the li-ion battery on the gt3 was a $1600 option. as a replacement its over $3k!

$3K! Talk about Porsche pricing

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

That's a lot of money for some weight savings. A normal lead acid battery will work fine, they're not putting the Lithium Ion battery in there because of it's performance, they're putting it in because it's half the weight.

Yes. But...

The charging system on the F8x car is different from past BMW models. I believe my buddy at BMW AG told me that the charging system can output up to 18 volts to the battery. Most cars only put out 14 volts - to charge their batteries. So you can not use the old types of batteries in the F8x cars. You must use this Li-ion battery.

Dackel

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen

can this be swapped out for an inexpensive lead acid

No.

[Tiago@VRSF]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yes. But...

The charging system on the F8x car is different from past BMW models. I believe my buddy at BMW AG told me that the charging system can output up to 18 volts to the battery. Most cars only put out 14 volts - to charge their batteries. So you can not use the old types of batteries in the F8x cars. You must use this Li-ion battery.

Dackel

Looks to me like that's a 12 volt battery.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yes. But...

The charging system on the F8x car is different from past BMW models. I believe my buddy at BMW AG told me that the charging system can output up to 18 volts to the battery. Most cars only put out 14 volts - to charge their batteries. So you can not use the old types of batteries in the F8x cars. You must use this Li-ion battery.

Dackel

Says 12 volts on the battery.

[nene]

When I picked up the car and sales went over the paperwork, they specifically stated that batteries on the M4 are not part of the free service done during warranty.

But I figured the battery would not be required replacement within 1-2 years. But that is what he stated.

Found the paperwork, and it shows

"New Vehicle Warranty Excludes":
- Exterior Paint
- Interior Finish
- Tires
- Wheels
- Battery

"Maintenance Program Includes":
- Annual Service
- Oil Change
- Engine Belt
- Fluid Flushes
- Oxygen Sensors
- Wiper Blades
- Tune Ups
- Brake Pads & Rotors

[Arcoril]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yes. But...

The charging system on the F8x car is different from past BMW models. I believe my buddy at BMW AG told me that the charging system can output up to 18 volts to the battery. Most cars only put out 14 volts - to charge their batteries. So you can not use the old types of batteries in the F8x cars. You must use this Li-ion battery.

Dackel

There was a whole lot of speculation that the charging system could be set to either Li-ion or lead acid mode. Has your buddy heard anything about that?

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen

can this be swapped out for an inexpensive lead acid

Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen

knowing if a lead acid can be swapped in is useful information. These lithium batteries arent exactly off the shelf and available everywhere. Knowing if, in a pinch, you can put a lead acid in to get moving is pretty important in case of battery failure. In warmer climates batteries are replaced every 3-4 years due to the heat. If you start pushing that time frame here it gets dicey. After the 3 year mark, you have to really watch how the battery is behaving and its not worth trying to squeeze an extra 6 months out and risk a battery dying on you in the worst possible place and time. Summer time is when they really like to die.

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Says 12 volts on the battery.

No, as was said above, it can't.

The battery itself has electronics integrated in it which are part of the running system of the car. If you look at the stickied thread, the massive technical detail guide (whatever it's called) goes through the battery and all the vehicle systems functions contained within the battery. From my reading, what I gather is that the vehicle would not start at all without the LiIon battery installed with it accompanying electronics package.

[DBACE]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

That's a lot of money for some weight savings. A normal lead acid battery will work fine, they're not putting the Lithium Ion battery in there because of it's performance, they're putting it in because it's half the weight.

While the lead battery might be used as a temporary power source, I imagine there is a setting to switch to as Li-Ion fast charge to a greater power level than Lead Acid. I.E the lead acid might not enjoy the amount of power supplied to it. I have not seen much on how electrical power is supplied, demanded or distributed, but the Li-ion can do some things a lead battery cannot. One is there is no voltage sag at all, which means if the battery is at 20% or even lower, it will still put out its rated voltage. The second benefit is a Li-Ion can be cycled many more times than a lead acid battery. I.E 2000 vs 500. I suspect errors or system issues in the cars electrical system will occur if you use a Lead Battery that will have voltage sag.

I look forward to seeing the person who puts a lead battery in the car and hear how they make out. That is an experiment I think involves a bit of risk, too much for my electrical likings.

[TheLegend]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Isn't your car still under warranty? Why would they charge you for a new battery?

Sorry I should have specified. They quoted me $1200, but luckily it was covered under warranty. I would have gone livid otherwise. It had the battery warning when I rolled it off the lot but they told me it'll go away after I drive it awhile. However after 400 miles I was still getting the warning. Weird thing was the car still started up just fine and everything worked fine.

[huatian]

Look at your iPhone battery same technology only a fraction of the power yet it cost 100. Lithium [Li] is a very reactive thus unstable in natural form therefore it's expensive to process, handle and ship. It can also be very dangerous and more complicated to charge correctly (Boeing dream liner). Given the size of the battery in the M3/M4, the price is not out of line with a Li-Ion battery of that size.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

No, as was said above, it can't.

The battery itself has electronics integrated in it which are part of the running system of the car. If you look at the stickied thread, the massive technical detail guide (whatever it's called) goes through the battery and all the vehicle systems functions contained within the battery. From my reading, what I gather is that the vehicle would not start at all without the LiIon battery installed with it accompanying electronics package.

I'm going to go the other way. I understand the battery has lots of integrated electronics. Awesome.

If your car couldn't run off a regular lead-acid battery, then it would definitely have an issue being jumped by a lead-acid battery (since the other power doesn't disconnect the moment the car fires).

Batteries inherently have to operate under a very wide range of outputs due to variances in charge state, temperature, and demand. They need to be able to output a certain minimum power; they DO NOT need max-power all the time nor when starting the car. Which is why a car with a half-charged battery in 0 degree weather can sometimes still start.

The more I think through this, the more I'm of the mindset that "in a pinch I could run this thing off a 12-volt lead-acid battery and it'd manage itself fine. Unless I see a statement from BMW telling me otherwise, or that the car can only be run on a LI-Ion battery, then I'm assuming it can use different power sources.

Joe

P.s. I could totally be wrong. I'm just using logic, my understanding of electrical systems and batteries, and the lack of any contrary statement by BMW to this affect.

Consider this: MANY shops around the country/world have "shop batteries" sitting around for use in starting/charging situations. They are usually honking big lead-acid batteries. I see no warning anywhere from BMW to only use LI batteries when starting or operating this car...?

[ForTehNguyen]

does the owners manual have any explicit warning not to use lead acid?

[shortseller]

So Anyone have any idea how long these batteries would last without being started and garage stored during winter conditions without any type of slow charge attachment? Sounds like weeks not months, which is ridiculous when you take into account the costs involved, of car & battery.