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View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ?
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable 93 46.04%
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine 109 53.96%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-26-2013, 07:38 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Challenge Accepted.

Also funny story about that GTHaus 550i. Not once but twice I've ran into that car on the road. Once with my E60 M5 with RPi GT exhaust and RPi Catless Headers and the second time with my RPi GTM F10 M5 with catless downpipes. The first time the driver kept revving his engine at me as we drove over the Coronado bridge. I taught that clown a lesson with the S85 V10. The second time, no contest once they heard my F10 M5 in person. I just don't like the Korean made Meistershaft exhausts they use. Lol!

It's all good brotha just bustin ur chips for fun. Happy Holidays.
The more videos of your car that you post, the better. LOL! I never get sick of hearing that exhaust on ///M5's.


P.S. So that was YOU on the Coronado bridge? I knew your car looked familiar.
Haha! Yup, thanks man! I miss that old E60. Honestly I miss days like those. Rev battling on the highway and stuff. Good times!

I really really hope that a straightpiped M4 will sound pretty decent. I have high hopes since like I said its has such a high redline.
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      12-26-2013, 10:00 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan
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Originally Posted by Killerfish2012 View Post
Yes, there are "cross-overs" in the industry, trying to blurr the lines across categories. But when it comes to sports cars, there is a "status quo", "common" definition that applies.
Sports cars are tiered just like everything else....

...two seater sports cars, sports coupes, sports sedans, etc. 'Sport' is just an umbrella term for a genre of car and is not singular defining in and of itself. It's like big boobs! What are big boobs exactly? 34 D? 34 DD? 34 F? I mean....the conversation could go on for days.


Well said.
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      12-26-2013, 10:13 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
its not REALLY maxed out. but its just so costly to keep the car n/a to gain real power. of course with the right price it can be done! i mostly see people going s/c route to get the real gains. because it actually cost the same/more to do big n/a builds. which is completely not the case for corvettes.

all i am saying is that big V8 push rod single cam motors are easy to work with and gain power cheaper.
Everything you've said Ezio within this whole forum.. I can't agree more.
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      12-26-2013, 10:45 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
99% of the people here have never felt the kind of acceleration from 140mph with these new ///M Turbocharged engines. They're leagues ahead of the old NA engines in performance.
I'm sure you don't mean to imply that the feel of any particular engine at high speeds has anything to do with it being NA or FI. Sure lag is a part of feel but it's pretty clear you are not talking about dynamic throttle response and/or lag. What one feels at these speeds in a road car is simply a matter of power and drag, weight isn't really even much of a factor. Thus in short anyone should agree that high hp engines feel great at high speeds...
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      12-26-2013, 11:53 PM   #335
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Huh?

I dont want to get in the sound debate and i think the new m4 has a pretty good exhaust note from the videos posted everywhere but...

The noises that ppl refer to in the s65 is NOT exhaust noise whatsoever. In fact, there is no damn exhaust noise lol.

Even the n52 sounds pretty bad ass from under the hood when you step on it.

Induction and mechanical noises is the key here. Not just exhaust note. Big difference.

Next time everyone on here try to focus on what the engine sounds like. Not the fart can from behind the car. All i hear is a muted engine sound with some whistling (although that can sound badass as well with intake mods etc) in every turbo car and thats what youre going to get no matter what.

You can add exhaust and test pipes and whatever you want but that will not change the mechanical sound of the engine. I enjoy exhaust note as well but engines noises are completely different.

I was even impressed by noise the new is350 made while the dude was flooring it to show off compared to the nothing you hear from the 335i

Hell, even when vtec kicks in it at least sounds good under the hood

Comparing 6cylinders, the s54 sounds awesome. Same thing. Under the hood. Not exhaust noted in the back. Again, there was no exhaust note lol. I dont think s55 will sound like that.

Nothing wrong with sounding like a 747 about to take off with an awesome exhaust note but i will miss the sound of the naturally aspirated engines.
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      12-27-2013, 01:38 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
Huh?

I dont want to get in the sound debate and i think the new m4 has a pretty good exhaust note from the videos posted everywhere but...

The noises that ppl refer to in the s65 is NOT exhaust noise whatsoever. In fact, there is no damn exhaust noise lol.

Even the n52 sounds pretty bad ass from under the hood when you step on it.

Induction and mechanical noises is the key here. Not just exhaust note. Big difference.

Next time everyone on here try to focus on what the engine sounds like. Not the fart can from behind the car. All i hear is a muted engine sound with some whistling (although that can sound badass as well with intake mods etc) in every turbo car and thats what youre going to get no matter what.

You can add exhaust and test pipes and whatever you want but that will not change the mechanical sound of the engine. I enjoy exhaust note as well but engines noises are completely different.

I was even impressed by noise the new is350 made while the dude was flooring it to show off compared to the nothing you hear from the 335i

Hell, even when vtec kicks in it at least sounds good under the hood

Comparing 6cylinders, the s54 sounds awesome. Same thing. Under the hood. Not exhaust noted in the back. Again, there was no exhaust note lol. I dont think s55 will sound like that.

Nothing wrong with sounding like a 747 about to take off with an awesome exhaust note but i will miss the sound of the naturally aspirated engines.
Chris Harris seems to love how the N55 sounds in the M135i

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      12-27-2013, 01:44 AM   #337
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Thats what i said. Nothing wrong with sounding like a jet on a runway lol. I will just miss the engine sound of the s65 (although i plan to keep it for a long time and convert it to street illegal status lol).
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      12-27-2013, 03:54 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
Thats what i said. Nothing wrong with sounding like a jet on a runway lol. I will just miss the engine sound of the s65 (although i plan to keep it for a long time and convert it to street illegal status lol).
That's not what he said was it?

He said it had a classic BMW sound...
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      12-27-2013, 06:31 AM   #339
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Everything you've said Ezio within this whole forum.. I can't agree more.
Congrats. It takes two to tango

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      12-27-2013, 10:27 AM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i am past the point of comparing it to a S65.

i read a early review on the car, and they said the M4 sounded like the 335i.

just wait

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st-ride-review

"The M3’s exhaust note is deeper and louder than that of a 335i, but not radically different. It sounds most distinctive during gearchanges, when the engine emits a hollow burp on upshifts and staccato brap-brap-brap on downshifts"

Don't forget about m4 redline, it will sound different from n54-n55 anyway, but ofcourse V8 s65 is great,
But s55 will sound unique,just another way, so i think when the car is out we will have proper sound clips to judge.
And even if it's not as aggressive,personally i'm not worried that much,cause you always can go aftermarket!!!
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      12-27-2013, 02:42 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwm3redblack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
i am past the point of comparing it to a S65.

i read a early review on the car, and they said the M4 sounded like the 335i.

just wait

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st-ride-review

"The M3s exhaust note is deeper and louder than that of a 335i, but not radically different. It sounds most distinctive during gearchanges, when the engine emits a hollow burp on upshifts and staccato brap-brap-brap on downshifts"

Don't forget about m4 redline, it will sound different from n54-n55 anyway, but ofcourse V8 s65 is great,
But s55 will sound unique,just another way, so i think when the car is out we will have proper sound clips to judge.
And even if it's not as aggressive,personally i'm not worried that much,cause you always can go aftermarket!!!
I have never been happy with a stock exhaust. So I think it's a given that we need to not only wait for the car to come out. But also hear them with a after market setup
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      12-27-2013, 02:53 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
I have never been happy with a stock exhaust. So I think it's a given that we need to not only wait for the car to come out. But also hear them with a after market setup
So here you go, akrapovich, GT haus, eisenmann, etc. Many setups,for each taste
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      12-27-2013, 03:07 PM   #343
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Next years F1 engines will still rev to 15.000rpm, down from 18.000. Still a small displacement high rpm engine!

I don't see why high revving should equal easier to modulate throttle/power? Is the LT1 and LS7 engine in the C6/C7 difficult to modulate throttle/power on??? Or any other engine that has a redline at a lower rpm?

High rpm is needed to make sufficient power from a smaller displacement engine, it's not like Ferrari or Porsche chose a 9000rpm redline just so the driver should be able to better modulate the throttle/power... They did it in order to be able to extract the kind of power they do from small displacement engines (relative to the LS7 engine which has less power from 6,2l). Remember that a engines power is made from combustion. To make more power you either need more combustions, or a "larger" combustion. Go large displacement (or turbocharge) and you get that "large" combustion and make more power. If you keep the displacement low, you simply need more combustions to make more power. How can you make more combustions? You have to increase rpm so that you can "squeeze in" more combustions per minute!!!

A turbo engine will normally be more difficult to modulate throttle input and power output from (due to turbo lag). That is one of the issues the S55 supposedly has been able to eliminate (more or less).
High revving engines, usually don't have much torque, thus their gear ratios are different, so in each gear, the modulation on the pedal is equal to power on tarmac. In a torque heavy cars = taller gear, so every rpm is harder to modulate with pedal. Because u have less of those RPMS, and less pedal to modulate the powerband.

The reason why it is easier to modulate & hold a powerslide in a high revving M3, over a 1M. It requires more precise control when u have 400 hp to lay down over 5.700 rpms, than it does when u have 8,700..

Ask Advevo. Hey can tell you the diff between a 1M and an M3 throttle & modulation.


edit: btw, combustion engine is: air in, air out. (ie: VE)
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      12-27-2013, 03:51 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
you guys are trying your best i know. the fact is this.

I am a M3 owner, your not. maybe this new engine to you sounds good because of what you drive now.
but to a current M3 owner, and performance car owner in general. usually when it comes time to get another car for what ever reason. you want the next car to performance, look better, and have something under its hood that in your opinion you see as a upgrade. of course within reason and within financial ability.

with that said. i feel the M4 looks great, performance of course is going to be great, but do i view a 3.0L I6 TT is something i see as a upgrade ? i wouldn't call a S65 a "better" engine, but i don't find the new I6 to be appealing.

the fact that people are EVEN comparing the M4 to the 335i in sound the department sums it all up for me. ok its not going to be exactly the same. i do not want. "not dramatically different" than a a lower model in the sound department. it makes the car less appealing.

Do u have a stock exhaust..?

If so, do you want to meet up and have people on the street judge your exhaust against mine..? Side by side..?
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      12-27-2013, 04:00 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
Do u have a stock exhaust..?

If so, do you want to meet up and have people on the street judge your exhaust against mine..? Side by side..?
nah i don't have stock. also keeping in mind the M3 is also more about the intake noise than exhaust. with that said. the exhaust still does has a nice tone to it.

idk that idea sounds kind of funny though. its almost better to just take a video and post it on here.
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      12-27-2013, 04:23 PM   #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
nah i don't have stock. also keeping in mind the M3 is also more about the intake noise than exhaust. with that said. the exhaust still does has a nice tone to it.

idk that idea sounds kind of funny though. its almost better to just take a video and post it on here.
My point being, the M3 never sounded that good to begin with, & isn't known for it's sound.

I know some might not like the new m4 sound clip, but I really like it & think the S55 sound way better than the previous M3/4. I think the general public will agree, that is why I offered that little experiment between us.

Illustrating that the new M4, will sound even tougher than the note on my turbo-6.


Which coincidentally gets a lot of notice, as I have had people at lights ask me if I am stock, or just commenting on how they like the sound. Got a ton of *thumbsup* at both Detroit Cruises this summer. Which is hard to do from a small BMW when u have V8 sticking out of the hoods of cars all around you.
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      12-27-2013, 04:32 PM   #347
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The FI I6 with the BMW PE sounds quite magnificent.

I don't have one, I'm stock, but it sounds quite nice.
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      12-27-2013, 04:37 PM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
My point being, the M3 never sounded that good to begin with, & isn't known for it's sound.

I know some might not like the new m4 sound clip, but I really like it & think the S55 sound way better than the previous M3/4. I think the general public will agree, that is why I offered that little experiment between us.

Illustrating that the new M4, will sound even tougher than the note on my turbo-6.


Which coincidentally gets a lot of notice, as I have had people at lights ask me if I am stock, or just commenting on how they like the sound. Got a ton of *thumbsup* at both Detroit Cruises this summer. Which is hard to do from a small BMW when u have V8 sticking out of the hoods of cars all around you.
i would be down for that experiment. but i feel doing it at a car meet would be more ideal though. like a weekend night on woodward or a cars and coffee meet.

in fact i would love to do the same with a M4.
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      12-27-2013, 04:58 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
High revving engines, usually don't have much torque, thus their gear ratios are different, so in each gear, the modulation on the pedal is equal to power on tarmac. In a torque heavy cars = taller gear, so every rpm is harder to modulate with pedal. Because u have less of those RPMS, and less pedal to modulate the powerband.

The reason why it is easier to modulate & hold a powerslide in a high revving M3, over a 1M. It requires more precise control when u have 400 hp to lay down over 5.700 rpms, than it does when u have 8,700..

Ask Advevo. Hey can tell you the diff between a 1M and an M3 throttle & modulation.


edit: btw, combustion engine is: air in, air out. (ie: VE)
You are mixing throttle modulation on NA vs Turbo engines here, not high rpm vs low rpm...

A NA engine usually is easier to modulate than a turbo engine, because of lag. Lag means that throttle input doesn't allways equal power output immediately, but power comes delayed from throttle input. A engine like the S65 is easier to modulate than a 1M because throttle input equals immediate response and linearity of power output. I explained that in my previous post as well.

And, in most modern BMW's you can change throttle modulation via the dynamic drive button anyway. In Sport mode, less throttle pedal travel gives same throttle opening as longer pedal travel does in Normal mode. Doesn't mean it's hard to modulate power, it just gives you a more direct and instant response from the engine. It kinda feels like the engine is more powerfull because less pedal travel gives more power than in Normal. And a engine that "needs" more pedal travel surely has that programmed into its fly by wire throttle today, or in the good old days in the gearing of the throttle linkage.

Ask someone with a Ford F150 6,2l V8 if it's difficult to modulate the throttle, or someone with a Chevrolet LT1/LS7 engined Corvette... Low rpm engines, high torque, but not difficult to modulate the throttle on. The engine in those examples gives you the power that you ask for via the throttle pedal. If your theory would be correct, then every US Pickup would be difficult to modulate throttle and power on...

Then ask someone with a Ferrari F40 with it's big turbo, small displacement (2,9l), engine and 7750rpm redline if that's easy to modulate power on (as it should be because it has a high rpm according to your theory). Hint; It's not easy to modulate throttle input and power output as will be explained below.

It's the way the engine delivers it's power that decides whether it's hard to modulate the throttle. Turbo engines used to be said had a "ketchup effect" in their power delivery... Like in how you pour ketchup from a old Heinz bottle. Nothing, nothing, nothing... EVERYTHING!

Think of a NA engine as pouring milk out of a glass. It's very easy to control the flow of the milk from the glass by the angle you tilt the glass. A turbo engine will be more like pouring syrup, it's harder to control the flow, or change the flow, as there is more resistancy to flow (viscosity). That's a very crude way of illustrating how difficult it can be to maintain and keep boost, or especially the delay in boost when throttle input changes (just like the difference between pouring milk and syrup, and the slight delay in flow of syrup to every change of tilt of the glass, where the milk responds much quicker to those inputs...).

A turbo is delayed in it's response to throttle input because:

-Open the throttle, equals more air to the engine and more fuel is injected
-The above chain of events then leads to a larger combustion which leads to more exhaust
-Only now (after the first explosions with more air and fuel) does the turbine side of the turbo see the extra exhaust created by your throttle input some milliseconds ago
-The turbine is spun faster by the increased volume and speed of the exhaust, this means the compressor side also spins faster
-The compressor side can now start to compress and pump more air into the intercooler and further downstream to the intake manifold
-By the time the extra supercharged air reaches the inlet valves and into the combustion chamber, there might be a time lapse of 0,5-3 seconds from your throttle pedal input...

This is why it's harder to modulate a traditional turbo engine than a NA engine. A NA engine doesn't have to wait on the turbo to spool up and charge the air before it delivers the power you asked for!

Not sure how the "air in, air out" statement is relevant, apart from stating the obvious fact that a combustion engine is a air pump. And that to pump more air you either need to:

a) increase the frequency (RPM)
b) supercharge the air going in to the pump
c) increase the volume of the pump (larger displacement)

Or, all of the above.

BTW. I own both a NA BMW 3l I6 and a Ford with a 2l Cosworth Turbo engine. But one is WAY easier and more predictable to modulate power on... One is a widow maker with wild oversteer tendencies when power all of a sudden comes in a big rush... They both have a redline only 500rpm apart and have allmost exactly the same power (around 270-300hp).

Guess which one is easier to modulate.

Last edited by Boss330; 12-27-2013 at 05:27 PM..
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      12-28-2013, 03:37 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
High revving engines, usually don't have much torque, thus their gear ratios are different, so in each gear, the modulation on the pedal is equal to power on tarmac. In a torque heavy cars = taller gear, so every rpm is harder to modulate with pedal. Because u have less of those RPMS, and less pedal to modulate the powerband.

The reason why it is easier to modulate & hold a powerslide in a high revving M3, over a 1M. It requires more precise control when u have 400 hp to lay down over 5.700 rpms, than it does when u have 8,700..

Ask Advevo. Hey can tell you the diff between a 1M and an M3 throttle & modulation.


edit: btw, combustion engine is: air in, air out. (ie: VE)



Advevo and I we are friends for about 30 years now and I do sideways action too. Just like him. It's about two things really 1M vs M3 :
-SWB 1M vs LWB M3
-PS2 tyres. They're an on off grip/slip switch. Try other tyres.

But
We modulate the throttle at driftdays and the 1M is a blast, better than M3 imo. But the swb will make it snappier. The 1M is let's say 10 times more explosive but stay in 3rd gear and everthing will be alright. If that's what you mean?

Take a look at Chris Harris drifting the turbolagged F40. After 15 minutes you can do that...if you're into it.

Cheers
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      12-28-2013, 04:19 AM   #351
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What exactly is being discussed here?
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      12-28-2013, 04:26 AM   #352
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What exactly is being discussed here?


Cheers
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