M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

[IS350]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Yes I did do the full self driving (vaporware) option. Apparently the first set of features (over and above EAP) will be released soon so I wanted to have access.

I love the z06. But I want a c5z or c6z already modified for club racing instead of a street car.

That's awesome that you're able to minimize your tax liabilities to that extent. Yes, I do expect to use the federal ev tax credit. I need to look closely at the new rules for the Ca tax credit.

Get the gas sports or competition car AND the Tesla if possible. That way you have specialized and will get better outcomes for each of sport and commuting.

Please keep us posted on the tax research.

I wish I could afford both the ICE and Tesla. One day.

Do you track much? Plan to track the Tesla?

What's eta, 2 months?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Yes I did do the full self driving (vaporware) option.

So then, did you just go all-in with the fully loaded $80k MSRP configuration, white interior and all?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by IS350

Please keep us posted on the tax research.

I wish I could afford both the ICE and Tesla. One day.

Do you track much? Plan to track the Tesla?

What's eta, 2 months?

The main thing I've learned is that if you take the CA tax credit then you can't get the HOV lane sticker. So I may not take the $2.5k CA tax credit

Yes, delivery in Nov 2018, so likely can still get the federal credit before phase out. knock on wood

I go about 24 days a year to the track. I don't know if you would consider that a lot or not. It's as much as I can do anyway with other life commitments.

Yes, absolutely will use the Tesla for a lapping day or two. My current focus is getting started in w2w via SM though.

mkoesel I went with the black interior (I have a dog) and black interior (one of my enduro team mates is sponsored by a vinyl wrap company....)

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by IS350

I'm in a Z06 rental this week, and am now seriously considering this, over the Tesla. It's so quick and that sound! Plus, the stereo tops my M3's, the HUD actually works with my sunglasses and the top comes off, lol. If only I never needed a backseat!

Do it. Get the z06 instead. That's the most inspiring thing I've read all day.

[IS350]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

The main thing I've learned is that if you take the CA tax credit then you can't get the HOV lane sticker. So I may not take the $2.5k CA tax credit

Yes, delivery in Nov 2018, so likely can still get the federal credit before phase out. knock on wood

I go about 24 days a year to the track. I don't know if you would consider that a lot or not. It's as much as I can do anyway with other life commitments.

Yes, absolutely will use the Tesla for a lapping day or two. My current focus is getting started in w2w via SM though.

24 days, that's a solid run! Which cars are you running?

Interesting about the tax debate vs Hov.
Have you checked line 47 on your 1040?

Fuller, funny, regarding the Z06. A nice contrast to EV!

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by IS350

Fuller, funny, regarding the Z06. A nice contrast to EV!

It's not that I'm anti-EV on principle, but I think we'll have plenty of time to experience EV technology, and watch it evolve into something better. It's the dawn of a revolution in personal transportation technology, and I feel that time is running out for the pure, (non-hybrid) high powered ICEs. Consequently, EV is in its infancy, and the ICE is about as good as it will ever be. The ICE of today is more powerful, more reliable, more efficient, and it's packaged into cars that are generally more refined (and arguably more exciting) than ever before. I'm not an alarmist, I believe the v8s, v6s, and i6 will be around for a while still, but not necessarily in the current formats, and they might not be offered in the wide variety of cars and trucks that exist right now.

This is why I say, if you have wanted something like a z06 for some time, now is a good time to go for it. It's probably the best it's ever been, where as EV will only get better. Obviously some people might not care for ICE powered cars, or feel that the current EV offerings fit them better. In that case, exciting times are ahead.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Fuller

It's not that I'm anti-EV on principle, but I think we'll have plenty of time to experience EV technology, and watch it evolve into something better. It's the dawn of a revolution in personal transportation technology, and I feel that time is running out for the pure, (non-hybrid) high powered ICEs. Consequently, EV is in its infancy, and the ICE is about as good as it will ever be. The ICE of today is more powerful, more reliable, more efficient, and it's packaged into cars that are generally more refined (and arguably more exciting) than ever before. I'm not an alarmist, I believe the v8s, v6s, and i6 will be around for a while still, but not necessarily in the current formats, and they might not be offered in the wide variety of cars and trucks that exist right now.

This is why I say, if you have wanted something like a z06 for some time, now is a good time to go for it. It's probably the best it's ever been, where as EV will only get better. Obviously some people might not care for ICE powered cars, or feel that the current EV offerings fit them better. In that case, exciting times are ahead.

This was my thought...I'll have the rest of my life to drive amazing EVs, I won't have the rest of my life to drive a screaming, non-hybrid twin turbo, absolutely unnecessary (in daily traffic) beast. #yolo!?

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

This was my thought...I'll have the rest of my life to drive amazing EVs, I won't have the rest of my life to drive a screaming, non-hybrid twin turbo, absolutely unnecessary (in daily traffic) beast. #yolo!?

Exactly. Let's face facts, the Hellcat is becoming a saber-toothed tiger, and Pantera broke up decades ago.

[voip-ninja]

Originally Posted by CigarPundit

I’m having trouble understanding how a 450 hp, 4000 pound Model 3 is keeping up with a 600 hp 3500 pound M3 from a 35 mph roll. Has Elon repealed the laws of physics?

Or maybe Tesla is seriously understating the HP of the Model 3, I mean is that unheard of? I seem to remember a Bavarian manufacturer of premium cars that is very well known for doing exactly the same thing.



On topic, the Model 3 P is too rich for my blood but I do have a Model 3 dual-motor coming next week to replace my 340xi that is at lease end. After renting the rear wheel drive model 3 a couple of months ago I don't feel like I'm giving up anything making the switch. Can also charge for free at work, so I'm looking at saving about $120 a month or more on fueling costs.

[hon2bmw]

Recent review on the Model 3 Performance from CD:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...m=social-media

"The handling doesn't feel as if it's dictated by the vehicle's weight, but rather by what the car is actively doing to counteract that weight's inertia. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and every reaction prompts an appropriate response from the Tesla's computers. What's amazing about the experience is that without the torque interruptions necessitated by shifting or the distraction of a howling engine, you have the space in your mind to pick out just what's going on. It's almost as if time slows down. And yet, it all doesn't feel as digital as some heavily computerized supersedans of recent years. The machine is doing real, mechanical work, and it's a pleasure and a marvel to experience it. If the feedback through the steering wheel isn't remarkable, what comes through the chassis is.

What we can't tell you at this point is what the Model 3 Performance will do on a real track. But in 40 or 50 minutes of nigh-continuous tomfoolery on the autocross course, the car never cut power, the brakes exhibited zero sign of fade, and the only casualty seemed to be 100 miles of range."

So probably not for BMW traditionalists, but for people who are open to new ideas on "performance" vehicles. The future is happening, I'm sure the legacy brands will continue to offer something that pleases those with remembrance of what cars used to be, but I, for one, am excited about the future. If I had the income to consider spending $50-70k on one of these, I would do it in a heartbeat.

And yes, the model 3 was always intended to be a "competitor" to the 3 series, A4, etc. They are considered a premium brand, regardless of what "enthusiast" circles deem to be their criteria.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by hon2bmw

So probably not for BMW traditionalists, but for people who are open to new ideas on "performance" vehicles. .

0-60, 1/4 mile and lap times aren't new ideas, and to me the coolest thing about this car is you can use those old metrics to compare.

i think we are just seeing the same old debates as awd/turbo vs v8/rwd, air vs water cooled, power steering vs unpowered, and ever other time new tech has been introduced to cars

Definitely just get what you like.

PS: my car is getting here on Sat, much earlier than expected, and I'm planning to take it to the Oct 28 nasa NorCal event at sonoma. PM me if anyone else is going?

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

0-60, 1/4 mile and lap times aren't new ideas, and to me the coolest thing about this car is you can use those old metrics to compare.

i think we are just seeing the same old debates as awd/turbo vs v8/rwd, air vs water cooled, power steering vs unpowered, and ever other time new tech has been introduced to cars

Definitely just get what you like.

PS: my car is getting here on Sat, much earlier than expected, and I'm planning to take it to the Oct 28 nasa NorCal event at sonoma. PM me if anyone else is going?

congrats on the model 3!

I read the R and T article and see the acceleration times, but noticed -100 it is at least half a second slower than the m3. I am confused why the poster with the modded m4 would be slower as the model 3 seems to lose punch at higher speeds.

instant torque, yes, but same 400 ish hp on a heavy car, awd friction loss at high speed must follow the same laws of physics no?

[FC4]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

congrats on the model 3!

I read the R and T article and see the acceleration times, but noticed -100 it is at least half a second slower than the m3. I am confused why the poster with the modded m4 would be slower as the model 3 seems to lose punch at higher speeds.

instant torque, yes, but same 400 ish hp on a heavy car, awd friction loss at high speed must follow the same laws of physics no?

Time to speed versus time to distance...two different metrics. The outcome of an impromptu street race is a function of time to distance.

I don't care enough to look up the numbers, but an M3 may very well be quicker than the Model 3 from say 40 to 120 MPH on paper. In the real world, the Model 3 will jump out so far ahead of the M3 from a 40-roll that it's still a few cars ahead by the time the time the race is over, even though the M3 may have reached a higher speed.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by FC4

Time to speed versus time to distance...two different metrics. The outcome of an impromptu street race is a function of time to distance.

I don't care enough to look up the numbers, but an M3 may very well be quicker than the Model 3 from say 40 to 120 MPH on paper. In the real world, the Model 3 will jump out so far ahead of the M3 from a 40-roll that it's still a few cars ahead by the time the time the race is over, even though the M3 may have reached a higher speed.

Interesting, in your example are you assuming the m3 is in the correct gear (2nd) vs the model 3? Or are you thinking kick down?

I am intrigued by the ev, but I am concerned it will give me the same issue as with my x5m. Boring performance (zf8 simply shifts faster in auto kickdown and does not properly skip shift in manual mode). In other words, if all I do is stomp on the gas, and go- at least for me... I am not having any fun. It may be fun the 1st 50 times, but that's only good for a few months.

Today for instance, I was on the highway, heading to pass and there was semi truck tire debris all over the lanes, and I drive in manual mode on my dct always, so i drop gears, and sped up to maneuver and pass quickly to avoid the debris. It is rewarding to know what gear you are in, what gear you need to be in, snap snap dct shifts, etc.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Interesting, in your example are you assuming the m3 is in the correct gear (2nd) vs the model 3? Or are you thinking kick down?

I am intrigued by the ev, but I am concerned it will give me the same issue as with my x5m. Boring performance (zf8 simply shifts faster in auto kickdown and does not properly skip shift in manual mode). In other words, if all I do is stomp on the gas, and go- at least for me... I am not having any fun. It may be fun the 1st 50 times, but that's only good for a few months.

Today for instance, I was on the highway, heading to pass and there was semi truck tire debris all over the lanes, and I drive in manual mode on my dct always, so i drop gears, and sped up to maneuver and pass quickly to avoid the debris. It is rewarding to know what gear you are in, what gear you need to be in, snap snap dct shifts, etc.

Take a test drive and hammer it. Best way to find out.

Check out some Tesla dyno pulls. Seems like the advertised figures are "worse case" numbers or something.

I think there's also the somewhat overlooked fact that these are all mid engine cars. Motors and batteries are all in the middle.

If you're on the fence, definitely wait for the Porsche ev. That should be interesting.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I think there's also the somewhat overlooked fact that these are all mid engine cars. Motors and batteries are all in the middle.

When you say "these are all mid engine cars" do you mean Teslas? Not sure I understood, but while the Teslas' batteries are in the middle of the car under the seats, the motors are in the rear, and if AWD (which the Model 3 Performance is, naturally), the front too.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

When you say "these are all mid engine cars" do you mean Teslas? Not sure I understood, but while the Teslas' batteries are in the middle of the car under the seats, the motors are in the rear, and if AWD (which the Model 3 Performance is, naturally), the front too.

In the model 3, front motor is behind the front axle and the rear motor is in front of the rear axle. It's the same claim as "front mid engine" gas cars

Will be really interesting to see if this theoretical benefit is in fact helpful, especially once cars with stickier tires and wider rear wheels start to show up at road courses.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

In the model 3, front motor is behind the front axle and the rear motor is in front of the rear axle. It's the same claim as "front mid engine" gas cars

Will be really interesting to see if this theoretical benefit is in fact helpful, especially once cars with stickier tires and wider rear wheels start to show up at road courses.

I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure how meaningful the comparison really is. The front mid-engine design is already subject to some hair splitting:

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/you-p...car-1827205407

So once you cross the line over to EVs where you have to factor the placement of the battery and the dual motors into the equation, plus consider the fact that an electric motor itself is typically much lighter than an internal combustion engine, its probably nuanced enough times over to limit what can really be concluded by pigeon-holing it into a means of categorization that was really conceived only with ICE chassis in mind.

That is to say, suppose you moved the front electric motor a few inches forward - does it change the entire class of ICE vehicles to which we should now compare engine placements with? Likely no, since motor isn't that heavy, the battery is a huge part of the total weight of the EV, and there is still the second motor out back.

All this is to say that, the Model 3, especially the dual motor variants, already has inherent advantages due to the fact that they are EVs. Rather than worrying too much about exactly how the chassis is layed out, its probably sufficient in most cases to simply say that a smartly packaged EV (one that takes advantage of versatility of electric motors and batteries from a position and orientation perspective) like the Model 3 (and other Teslas) will generally have favorably chassis dynamics compared to a similarly-sized and similarly-purposed ICE vehicle.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

.its probably sufficient in most cases to simply say that a smartly packaged EV (one that takes advantage of versatility of electric motors and batteries from a position and orientation perspective) will generally have favorably chassis dynamics compared to a similarly-sized and similarly-purposed ICE vehicle.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Take a test drive and hammer it. Best way to find out.

Check out some Tesla dyno pulls. Seems like the advertised figures are "worse case" numbers or something.

I think there's also the somewhat overlooked fact that these are all mid engine cars. Motors and batteries are all in the middle.

If you're on the fence, definitely wait for the Porsche ev. That should be interesting.

Yeah, that taycan sounds a bit out of reach for me.

I am interested however in the more practicality of hybrids- which allow you to drive in full electric for 50 miles or so which is more likely the commute people have, and you can still keep ice for performance and both if you want to go all out.

You've made me think, however, I am going to check out the model 3 this week. there's a tesla store by me.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Yeah, that taycan sounds a bit out of reach for me.

I am interested however in the more practicality of hybrids- which allow you to drive in full electric for 50 miles or so which is more likely the commute people have, and you can still keep ice for performance and both if you want to go all out.

You've made me think, however, I am going to check out the model 3 this week. there's a tesla store by me.

Just my $0.02, hybrid are slow and you have to maintain the gas motor so it's worst of all worlds. My spark ev is a super cheap 80 miles class car, but 327ft lb and 2800lb so it's like a fiesta ST in terms of fun. Good luck with Prius hybrid or fusion or whatever.

My apologies if you meant something in the 918 class of hybrid.

You need to make an appointment for Tesla. Book a Performance version and try it out from a dig, a 40 mph roll, 60mph roll and exiting a low speed corner.

You in NorCal? Drop me a line and you're welcome to check out my car (I do want a ride in your f80 in exchange)

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Just my $0.02, hybrid are slow and you have to maintain the gas motor so it's worst of all worlds. My spark ev is a super cheap 80 miles class car, but 327ft lb and 2800lb so it's like a fiesta ST in terms of fun. Good luck with Prius hybrid or fusion or whatever.

My apologies if you meant something in the 918 class of hybrid.

You need to make an appointment for Tesla. Book a Performance version and try it out from a dig, a 40 mph roll, 60mph roll and exiting a low speed corner.

You in NorCal? Drop me a line and you're welcome to check out my car (I do want a ride in your f80 in exchange)

That's a good point, I guess I was thinking about the newer stuff Porsche is coming out with like the e hybrid panamera vs panamera 4s. similar specs but the e hybrid allows you to have a limited range all electric.

I live in So Cal, You had an f8x! you miss it or something?

I am going to see about making an appointment then with the store near me, thanks.