2013 BMW F80 M3 Goes Winter Testing Wearing Less

[aajami]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I see that they also claim that the F82 comes in 2013 and the F83 comes in 2014, which I will happily say on record right now has an absolutely zero percent chance of happening.

Seconded.

In that video, it's interesting that the tuned 1M kept up pace with the F80 during (what appeared to be) hard acceleration. I wonder how hard the test drivers of the lead car were pushing it.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am skeptical to say the least. If they build a brand new engine, why limit themselves to only 3.3L? It makes no sense. They've built a 3.2L using the M50 architecure before (granted, that it was an iron block).

That right that, what I was thinking when I first heard 3.3ltr.

[M3maniac20]

The exhaust note better be better than what was heard in that first video

[Mo_power]

i like the old m3 door mirrors and i hope they have the power bulge in the hood!

[mapezzul]

The 3.3l makes no sense what so ever. Take the notion that DTM (BWM will have no other forward moving real racing projects going on) is based on a 4.0 l V8, all of BMW'\ Group's production engines are going to a .5l per cylinder configuration why on earth would M go against every thing and create something as silly as a 3.3 liter? They could just tweak the head, plumbing and boost to give them the hp the .3l would give them.

Many have heard that they are basing it on the N55 and that makes sense- they could even use the pistons, rods, rings etc from the DTM car if they wanted- the turbo system from the diesel and write software with little development costs. I have even heard that they have beefed up the lower end with reinforcement in the block as a bolt on so they did not need to cast something different.

Reports also indicate that the board said "no" to the V6 secondary to economies of scale and cost constraints. Let's be honest- If M was going to build a motor from the ground up and charge for it, it would have been in the M5 and M6 but they re-engineered. On that note- the new "halo" M the M 6GC will use a reengineered motor as well- how does that make sense? The M3 goes bespoke but the halo doesn't? The M3 until the beautiful V8 was always repackaged and reengineered, this is no different. BMW is most likely not going to participate with the M3 in racing (outside DTM) for sometime after this year so they have no homolgation issues..

I don't buy to 3.3 or V6 and my sources aren't telling me that. Is there a LOT of misinformation going on? Yes. Will this car debut in "concept" form sooner than later -YES. That is for certain.

You can also expect a recycled M5/M6 rear (they are reusing development like they did with the 1M). This will come to market in the EU first as BMWNA does not want to kill the brisk sales of the E92M3 but there will be a farewell tribute to come in a special edition- no you are not getting CRT seats

Take all the engine garble with a grain of salt right now... there is another M product coming before this and several M Performance models so the info is being spilled in this manner to increase interest and promote dialog/confusion. I trust what I hear from certain people and I try to express what I hear as best I can without stepping on toes....

Way back machine M5 style 3/3/11 - I state 560 hp (although I hinted for a while) I am NOT trying to promote anything so don't Terms of Use ME.... I am just trying to establish some sources.


Official info came a month later on 4/4- car was shown at M Fest and a few other venues before the "official" launch.

I trust who feeds me info (most of the time) and they are not corroborating the V6 3.3l at this time. Can that change- sure but I doubt it.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

The 3.3l makes no sense what so ever. Take the notion that DTM (BWM will have no other forward moving real racing projects going on) is based on a 4.0 l V8, all of BMW'\ Group's production engines are going to a .5l per cylinder configuration why on earth would M go against every thing and create something as silly as a 3.3 liter? They could just tweak the head, plumbing and boost to give them the hp the .3l would give them.

Many have heard that they are basing it on the N55 and that makes sense- they could even use the pistons, rods, rings etc from the DTM car if they wanted- the turbo system from the diesel and write software with little development costs. I have even heard that they have beefed up the lower end with reinforcement in the block as a bolt on so they did not need to cast something different.

Reports also indicate that the board said "no" to the V6 secondary to economies of scale and cost constraints. Let's be honest- If M was going to build a motor from the ground up and charge for it, it would have been in the M5 and M6 but they re-engineered. On that note- the new "halo" M the M 6GC will use a reengineered motor as well- how does that make sense? The M3 goes bespoke but the halo doesn't? The M3 until the beautiful V8 was always repackaged and reengineered, this is no different. BMW is most likely not going to participate with the M3 in racing (outside DTM) for sometime after this year so they have no homolgation issues..

I don't buy to 3.3 or V6 and my sources aren't telling me that. Is there a LOT of misinformation going on? Yes. Will this car debut in "concept" form sooner than later -YES. That is for certain.

You can also expect a recycled M5/M6 rear (they are reusing development like they did with the 1M). This will come to market in the EU first as BMWNA does not want to kill the brisk sales of the E92M3 but there will be a farewell tribute to come in a special edition- no you are not getting CRT seats

Take all the engine garble with a grain of salt right now... there is another M product coming before this and several M Performance models so the info is being spilled in this manner to increase interest and promote dialog/confusion. I trust what I hear from certain people and I try to express what I hear as best I can without stepping on toes....

Way back machine M5 style 3/3/11 - I state 560 hp (although I hinted for a while) I am NOT trying to promote anything so don't Terms of Use ME.... I am just trying to establish some sources.


Official info came a month later on 4/4- car was shown at M Fest and a few other venues before the "official" launch.

I trust who feeds me info (most of the time) and they are not corroborating the V6 3.3l at this time. Can that change- sure but I doubt it.

In trying to distinguish the back and forth from sites like Bimmerpost , German Car forum etc. Some are right on the nose of what it will portray in terms of layout and specification. Some I have to say are way off position.
But this form of debate is very advantageous for BMW and especially in the realm of social media in the automotive world.

In regards to news , blogs and media you find a BMW story and in this case the F80 story as the headline above headlines which is beneficial for BMW in their strategy to market the end product.
I know some enthusiasts might find it a form of torture to keep you on edge but there is still sometime to go and as you can see the end result has not even finished testing.

We are still considerably around a year from official reveal. But you will not be forever hanging on a thread. Some points of information will be revealed , some you wont like and some you will as the jigsaw comes together piece by piece to determine BMW's reason for this logic. But do not expect to learn everything at once, regarding the key salient points at this point in time.

There are new cars coming for both M and M Performance Automobiles.
With scheduled live broadcasts for NYIAS (BMW M6 Cabrio) , Auto China 2012 in Beijing and the M Festival to keep you in the loop.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

The 3.3l makes no sense what so ever. Take the notion that DTM (BWM will have no other forward moving real racing projects going on) is based on a 4.0 l V8, all of BMW'\ Group's production engines are going to a .5l per cylinder configuration why on earth would M go against every thing and create something as silly as a 3.3 liter? They could just tweak the head, plumbing and boost to give them the hp the .3l would give them.

Many have heard that they are basing it on the N55 and that makes sense- they could even use the pistons, rods, rings etc from the DTM car if they wanted- the turbo system from the diesel and write software with little development costs. I have even heard that they have beefed up the lower end with reinforcement in the block as a bolt on so they did not need to cast something different.

Reports also indicate that the board said "no" to the V6 secondary to economies of scale and cost constraints. Let's be honest- If M was going to build a motor from the ground up and charge for it, it would have been in the M5 and M6 but they re-engineered. On that note- the new "halo" M the M 6GC will use a reengineered motor as well- how does that make sense? The M3 goes bespoke but the halo doesn't? The M3 until the beautiful V8 was always repackaged and reengineered, this is no different. BMW is most likely not going to participate with the M3 in racing (outside DTM) for sometime after this year so they have no homolgation issues..

I don't buy to 3.3 or V6 and my sources aren't telling me that. Is there a LOT of misinformation going on? Yes. Will this car debut in "concept" form sooner than later -YES. That is for certain.

You can also expect a recycled M5/M6 rear (they are reusing development like they did with the 1M). This will come to market in the EU first as BMWNA does not want to kill the brisk sales of the E92M3 but there will be a farewell tribute to come in a special edition- no you are not getting CRT seats

Take all the engine garble with a grain of salt right now... there is another M product coming before this and several M Performance models so the info is being spilled in this manner to increase interest and promote dialog/confusion. I trust what I hear from certain people and I try to express what I hear as best I can without stepping on toes....

Way back machine M5 style 3/3/11 - I state 560 hp (although I hinted for a while) I am NOT trying to promote anything so don't Terms of Use ME.... I am just trying to establish some sources.


Official info came a month later on 4/4- car was shown at M Fest and a few other venues before the "official" launch.

I trust who feeds me info (most of the time) and they are not corroborating the V6 3.3l at this time. Can that change- sure but I doubt it.

We can debate as long we want, until any official release we won't know 100 %. Apparently there are two sources, one could say the truth (V6), an other could hide it (I6), and again, one could talk BS (V6) just to get attention and be famous on the web, the other could know the real truth (I6) but have no proof and again one and an other could have a part of the truth and invent/speculate the rest.

What you said about 0.5 per cylinder completely wrong. It is the best compromise for sportiness (revs) and street usabilty (troque), but goes only for BMW AG cars and not BMW M cars. In fact the only M cars that have 0.5l per cylinder are the M3 E9X and M5/M6 E6X with their 4.0l V8 and 5.0l V10 and only the first generation M3 E36 before facelift with its 3.0l I6. If you want the 1 series M Coupé with its 3.0l I6, but it is not a true M engine, not because it is based on an AG engine, but because it is not really different and moddified. All other M cars had larger displacement engines, here the list just FYI:
M1 E26 / M5 E28 / M6 E224: 3.5l I6
M5 E34: 3.6-3.8l I6
M5 E39: 4.9l V8
M3 E30: 2.3l I4
M3 E36 / M3 E46 / Z3 M E36 / Z4 M E8X: 3.2l I6
M5 F10 / M6 F1X / X5/X6 M E7X: 4.4l V8

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

In trying to distinguish the back and forth from sites like Bimmerpost , German Car forum etc. Some are right on the nose of what it will portray in terms of layout and specification. Some I have to say are way off position.

What can this mean? Who is right? V6 or I6? Hahaha, the same story with every generation M3.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by Levi

We can debate as long we want, until any official release we won't know 100 %. Apparently there are two sources, one could say the truth (V6), an other could hide it (I6), and again, one could talk BS (V6) just to get attention and be famous on the web, the other could know the real truth (I6) but have no proof and again one and an other could have a part of the truth and invent/speculate the rest.

What you said about 0.5 per cylinder completely wrong. It is the best compromise for sportiness (revs) and street usabilty (troque), but goes only for BMW AG cars and not BMW M cars. In fact the only M cars that have 0.5l per cylinder are the M3 E9X and M5/M6 E6X with their 4.0l V8 and 5.0l V10 and only the first generation M3 E36 before facelift with its 3.0l I6. If you want the 1 series M Coupé with its 3.0l I6, but it is not a true M engine, not because it is based on an AG engine, but because it is not really different and moddified. All other M cars had larger displacement engines, here the list just FYI:
M1 E26 / M5 E28 / M6 E224: 3.5l I6
M5 E34: 3.6-3.8l I6
M5 E39: 4.9l V8
M3 E30: 2.3l I4
M3 E36 / M3 E46 / Z3 M E36 / Z4 M E8X: 3.2l I6
M5 F10 / M6 F1X / X5/X6 M E7X: 4.4l V8

We can debate for ever until a release but there are some key facts that you are misrepresenting.

Most current, not old BMW products use the .5l per cylinder model. BMW stated this was the future as well (been to the presentation). The past is the past. The i8 sports a pretty outrageous 3 cylinder 1.5 l.CAR is being quoted as saying that inline 1.5 is 223hp in i8 efficient form using the new .5l engine matrix. The new four cylinder is 2.0, the six cylinders are 3l. The only engines not based on the .5l model is the 4.4 V8 (and V12) and that was designed prior to the engineering shift to scalability.

The new S63tü M5/M6 engine (it has done since the X5/X6) which shares the displacement with the base N63 which will get its valvetronic upgrade with the her LCI soon.

That is the new direction of M which is not different then the past as those other engines were (outside the S85 and S65) bored out cast iron blocks- can't really do that anymore as blocks are not cast iron and to become more efficient the distance between the cylinder wall and water jacket is minimal- they do not even use cylinder liners in the newer engines- they atomize molten iron by blowing it with inert gas around the honed walls. There is limited ability to add any increase in bore- can they add stroke- possibly but that would be less effective than adding more boost and redesigning the cylinder heads. M is in the business of taking what BMW AG produces to the next level- via turbo, via other NEW technologies...

BMW was able to use the M10 for ages and it went from 80hp in 1500 to 850hp in the Brabham BT52 F1 car- same block just different bore/stroke oh and boost- they used a twin scroll setup back in 1981. That block also was in the M1 and E30 M3. What is rare is for them to NOT use a base production block.

How wil they get a 3.3 liter? Lop two cylinder off the S63tü? Why not double the 1.5L in the i8 and get 446hp without having to do anything but switch the block to one based on the same matrix and add in some trick turbos....

[JulieDriving]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

The 3.3l makes no sense what so ever. Take the notion that DTM (BWM will have no other forward moving real racing projects going on) is based on a 4.0 l V8, all of BMW'\ Group's production engines are going to a .5l per cylinder configuration why on earth would M go against every thing and create something as silly as a 3.3 liter? They could just tweak the head, plumbing and boost to give them the hp the .3l would give them.

Many have heard that they are basing it on the N55 and that makes sense- they could even use the pistons, rods, rings etc from the DTM car if they wanted- the turbo system from the diesel and write software with little development costs. I have even heard that they have beefed up the lower end with reinforcement in the block as a bolt on so they did not need to cast something different.

Reports also indicate that the board said "no" to the V6 secondary to economies of scale and cost constraints. Let's be honest- If M was going to build a motor from the ground up and charge for it, it would have been in the M5 and M6 but they re-engineered. On that note- the new "halo" M the M 6GC will use a reengineered motor as well- how does that make sense? The M3 goes bespoke but the halo doesn't? The M3 until the beautiful V8 was always repackaged and reengineered, this is no different. BMW is most likely not going to participate with the M3 in racing (outside DTM) for sometime after this year so they have no homolgation issues..

I don't buy to 3.3 or V6 and my sources aren't telling me that. Is there a LOT of misinformation going on? Yes. Will this car debut in "concept" form sooner than later -YES. That is for certain.

You can also expect a recycled M5/M6 rear (they are reusing development like they did with the 1M). This will come to market in the EU first as BMWNA does not want to kill the brisk sales of the E92M3 but there will be a farewell tribute to come in a special edition- no you are not getting CRT seats

Take all the engine garble with a grain of salt right now... there is another M product coming before this and several M Performance models so the info is being spilled in this manner to increase interest and promote dialog/confusion. I trust what I hear from certain people and I try to express what I hear as best I can without stepping on toes....

Way back machine M5 style 3/3/11 - I state 560 hp (although I hinted for a while) I am NOT trying to promote anything so don't Terms of Use ME.... I am just trying to establish some sources.


Official info came a month later on 4/4- car was shown at M Fest and a few other venues before the "official" launch.

I trust who feeds me info (most of the time) and they are not corroborating the V6 3.3l at this time. Can that change- sure but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

In trying to distinguish the back and forth from sites like Bimmerpost , German Car forum etc. Some are right on the nose of what it will portray in terms of layout and specification. Some I have to say are way off position.
But this form of debate is very advantageous for BMW and especially in the realm of social media in the automotive world.

In regards to news , blogs and media you find a BMW story and in this case the F80 story as the headline above headlines which is beneficial for BMW in their strategy to market the end product.
I know some enthusiasts might find it a form of torture to keep you on edge but there is still sometime to go and as you can see the end result has not even finished testing.

We are still considerably around a year from official reveal. But you will not be forever hanging on a thread. Some points of information will be revealed , some you wont like and some you will as the jigsaw comes together piece by piece to determine BMW's reason for this logic. But do not expect to learn everything at once, regarding the key salient points at this point in time.

There are new cars coming for both M and M Performance Automobiles.
With scheduled live broadcasts for NYIAS (BMW M6 Cabrio) , Auto China 2012 in Beijing and the M Festival to keep you in the loop.

Thanks mapezzul and SCOTT,

I really appreciate the info you feed us and understand you must be feed it slowly and cryptically.

[kueks29]

[BMW269]

From the sound I can't tell what engine it is.

[S'Pimp]

I6

[kueks29]

Originally Posted by S'Pimp

I6

I would not bet on anything ...
For a Mirco can not absorb all frequencies. Everyone knows who has ever seen the Formula 1 live and on television.

I also think that in this video the sound is quite similar to the SLK 350 sounds, and that is a V6

[MMMMM3]

All the clues are in the Dr Nitschke interview:

"The M3 is an icon and it's very important for us to make it a perfect fit for our customer. It has to be a perfect in its whole - not only in its engine and suspension, it must be a perfect concept. We are working on weight of course and on horsepower of course and for perfect handling. We will surprise you with this new car.


Former M President and now BMW USA President Ludwig Willisch said years ago that BMW would be looking into V6 engines for the next M3. We've also seen patents showing interesting turbo technology and V6 layouts, so is there anything you can hint at or rule out at this point already?

From a technical point of view it would be possible. There were at times discussions about just shortening the M5 (F10) engine. But we are considering anything."

No one asked how the V6 will be developed, yet he volunteered that they have discussed shortening the M5(F10) engine. That's the subtle hint at the most likely engine.

[kueks29]

Right now, I think any of the M-Gmbh farther than from the wallpaper to the wall!

It has recently been told too much and very much wrong ... and deliberately and with premeditation!
As is, I wonder why you do that?

I would not bet a penny on a current I6, also not on a V6!

[MMMMM3]

"The M3 is an icon and it's very important for us to make it a perfect fit for our customer. It has to be a perfect in its whole - not only in its engine and suspension, it must be a perfect concept. We are working on weight of course and on horsepower of course and for perfect handling. We will surprise you with this new car."

A V6 will weigh less, and be more compact. It will make for a more balanced car with "perfect" handling.

[MMMMM3]

Originally Posted by kueks29

I would not bet on anything ...
For a Mirco can not absorb all frequencies. Everyone knows who has ever seen the Formula 1 live and on television.

I also think that in this video the sound is quite similar to the SLK 350 sounds, and that is a V6

It does sound like a V6, a rougher sound than the M5 V8, and not as high pitched as the old E46 M3 in line engine. Nor does it sound anything like the current 1M engine.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MMMMM3

No one asked how the V6 will be developed, yet he volunteered that they have discussed shortening the M5(F10) engine. That's the subtle hint at the most likely engine.

That or it is another red herring to corroborate with all the others they may very well have been intentionally leaking out over the past couple years. Hedging bets based on the words of BMW officials - especially when trying to find deep meaning through your own subjective interpretation - is probably a losing game IMHO.

The "most likely engine" at this point is the most cost efficient one that gets the job done - just like they did with the M5 and its relatives. It is hard to argue against a 3L I6 in that light, especially when they have just released a 375hp tri-turbo I6 which, prior to the early rumors of such an engine *not one single person* would have said "Hey you know what, I'll bet BMW M is developing a diesel that makes 125hp/L." There's your first "surpirse", as he calls it. The next surprise? We can do a 150hp/L gasoline I6 engine no problem too guys. Though that really only comes as a surprise if you buy into the masses saying it can't be done, and don't take the time to understand modern engine technology.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by MMMMM3

All the clues are in the Dr Nitschke interview:

"The M3 is an icon and it's very important for us to make it a perfect fit for our customer. It has to be a perfect in its whole - not only in its engine and suspension, it must be a perfect concept. We are working on weight of course and on horsepower of course and for perfect handling. We will surprise you with this new car.


Former M President and now BMW USA President Ludwig Willisch said years ago that BMW would be looking into V6 engines for the next M3. We've also seen patents showing interesting turbo technology and V6 layouts, so is there anything you can hint at or rule out at this point already?

From a technical point of view it would be possible. There were at times discussions about just shortening the M5 (F10) engine. But we are considering anything."

No one asked how the V6 will be developed, yet he volunteered that they have discussed shortening the M5(F10) engine. That's the subtle hint at the most likely engine.

Sounds logical ... the only real surprise in engine terms would be the first V6 in BMW history and the technical advantages of this concept for an sportscar are clear ... an N55 based 3.0ltr.R6 could never be an real surprise, because all think it could only be an R6 - "BMW only makes R6s" ... an R6 with 3.3ltr. displacement makes really less sence, because it needs an new and bigger engine block than the N55, thats meens higher costs and an packageing disadvantage for no performence increase over an 3.3ltr.V6.

The only two things where the M-GmbH could surprise its customers are:
- lower weight
- totally new engine concept

Only an better performence than all older M3s also wouldn´t be an surprise, because this was the case with every M3.

It would be an clever and innovative move if the M-GmbH gets its own engine family ... all based on the great S63Tü ... an 4.4ltr.V8 BiTurbo ... an 3.3ltr.V6 BiTurbo ... and an 2.2ltr.I4 Bi(Tri)Turbo.

But if the Informations leaked too early all surprise would be gone.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The "most likely engine" at this point is the most cost efficient one that gets the job done - just like they did with the M5 and its relatives.

Yes! That´s right and/but its the only real reason that says N55 based 3.0ltr.R6 TriTurbo with the N57-S turbo system ... but never an surprise in M3 terms.



Greets Uli_HH

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

Sounds logical ... the only real surprise in engine terms would be the first V6 in BMW history and the technical advantages of this concept for an sportscar are clear ... an N55 based 3.0ltr.R6 could never be an real surprise, because all think it could only be an R6 - "BMW only makes R6s" ... an R6 with 3.3ltr. displacement makes really less sence, because it needs an new and bigger engine block than the N55, thats meens higher costs and an packageing disadvantage for no performence increase over an 3.3ltr.V6.

The only two things where the M-GmbH could surprise its customers are:
- lower weight
- totally new engine concept

Only an better performence than all older M3s also wouldn´t be an surprise, because this was the case with every M3.

It would be an clever and innovative move if the M-GmbH gets its own engine family ... all based on the great S63Tü ... an 4.4ltr.V8 BiTurbo ... an 3.3ltr.V6 BiTurbo ... and an 2.2ltr.I4 Bi(Tri)Turbo.

But if the Informations leaked too early all surprise would be gone.



Yes! That´s right and/but its the only real reason that says N55 based 3.0ltr.R6 TriTurbo with the N57-S turbo system ... but never an surprise in M3 terms.



Greets Uli_HH

The big surprise... it will be an M4 when i coupe form, doesn't get more surprising than that

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

Sounds logical ... the only real surprise in engine terms would be the first V6 in BMW history and the technical advantages of this concept for an sportscar are clear ... an N55 based 3.0ltr.R6 could never be an real surprise, because all think it could only be an R6 - "BMW only makes R6s" ... an R6 with 3.3ltr. displacement makes really less sence, because it needs an new and bigger engine block than the N55, thats meens higher costs and an packageing disadvantage for no performence increase over an 3.3ltr.V6.

The only two things where the M-GmbH could surprise its customers are:
- lower weight
- totally new engine concept

Only an better performence than all older M3s also wouldn´t be an surprise, because this was the case with every M3.

It would be an clever and innovative move if the M-GmbH gets its own engine family ... all based on the great S63Tü ... an 4.4ltr.V8 BiTurbo ... an 3.3ltr.V6 BiTurbo ... and an 2.2ltr.I4 Bi(Tri)Turbo.

But if the Informations leaked too early all surprise would be gone.



Yes! That´s right and/but its the only real reason that says N55 based 3.0ltr.R6 TriTurbo with the N57-S turbo system ... but never an surprise in M3 terms.



Greets Uli_HH

All what you say is what I have been always thinking. I am very sure on a 2.2l I4 for the M2.