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      02-04-2015, 11:41 AM   #1
pigwet
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F80 M3 / F82 M4 Piggyback Tune Summary Table

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*TABLE*

Help complete the table!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

*SUMMARY*

Tunes that only access MAP/TMAP sensors (BMS Stage 1, BMS JB4 set to MAP 1)
--the simplest approach
--without access to RPM, it can only supply a constant increase in added boost for all RPM, in this case +4psi
--the car will get cranky at some added boost level (greater than +4psi or so = +40-50 whp) and the HP gains are limited by this

Another group that accesses MAP/TMAP/CAMSHAFT (Vivid, Turner, Tuning Tech, Active Autowerkes)
--access to RPM through CAMSHAFT gives ability to adjust boost with RPM

Another group that accesses MAP/TMAP/CAMSHAFT/MAF (DTE/ESS/ & maybe Velos)
--access to RPM through CAMSHAFT gives ability to adjust boost with RPM
--the MAF gives them the ability to avoid some potential codes a higher boost levels
--the MAF also reportedly gives the ability to improve shifting smoothness

One tune that accesses MAP/TMAP/Fuel Mass/Wastegate and CANbus (BMS JB4)
--this gives access to all of the above and much more
--enables ability to do fancy things like switch maps from steering wheel and open exhaust valves
--enables data logging capabilities
--enables much higher power tunes/mods including methanol and larger turbos
--includes a code reader & clearer
--the 1st map is very simple additive +4psi map and does not require connecting to CANbus (called STAGE 1)
--the 2nd and 3rd maps are still additive maps but +psi varies with RPM, requiring connecting to CANbus (called STAGE 2)
--the 4th map is for diagnostics
--the higher maps are riskier absolute (not additive) maps meant for higher octane fuels, larger turbos, etc. (called STAGE 3)
--the higher maps may require connection to wastegate and fuel mass sensors

And finally the DINAN
--rather than plugging into individual sensors, it plugs directly into the MDE/ECU which is below and in front of the intercooler
--only 14 or so wires are intercepted, so not all wires going into ECU are addressed as stated in their videos
--not clear how this approach differs from BMS, but it is more difficult to install and only a qualified installer/dealer can do it
--comes w/o firmware loaded, adding time to installation

From what I gather, the BMS JB4 offers everything the DINAN may someday offer for the F80/F82 - but currently the JB4 offers significantly more tuning and data logging options than any other tune.



*ORIGINAL*

I'm trying to better understand piggybacks and the different signals they adjust. For example, Dinan speaks a lot about adjusting the waste gate and sluggishness during gear shifts whereas others do not. ESS uses the MAF whereas others do not.

In particular, I'm interested in the ability of these tunes to work as designed at high altitudes. There appears to be a difference between MAF & MAP based versus MAP only tunes according to discussions here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=224799

I'm compiling a summary table and would appreciate it if you can check for accuracy in each product & column. If a column should be added, please suggest it. As always, please reference your input with a link to the manufacturers website, manufacturers thread, or manufacturers instructions/image/PDF etc.

Thanks!

*RELATED POSTS*
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1046287
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1069270
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1096016
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1091288

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1087101
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1091346
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1088789
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1088803
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1091956
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1083894
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1077691
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1082637
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1083251

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1036115
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1042528
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1073275

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1081933

Last edited by pigwet; 03-11-2015 at 06:09 AM..
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      02-04-2015, 01:08 PM   #2
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I'm on my iPhone so it's hard to review. But I didn't see the autowerkes active-8 listed. They have a thread in the tune section.
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      02-04-2015, 05:27 PM   #3
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Nice work. I would add "claimed gains".
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      02-04-2015, 06:06 PM   #4
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Very interesting stuff. Thank you!
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      02-04-2015, 06:55 PM   #5
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CAM angle and RPM are the same sensor. Which can be read via the CAM sensor or more directly via the CANbus. With CANbus any sensor or signal in the vehicle can be read. Which is why the JB4 can have in dash controls, exhaust flapper control, read/delete faults from any module on the vehicle, etc.

Your sheet is missing fuel mass which is a critical one. The JB4 includes it. It's also missing RS232/USB which is important for firmware updates at home, data logging, etc. The JB4 and Stage1 both include that. The JB4 also includes EWG. The JB4 and Stage1 do not read MAF. Stage1 doesn't require it and the JB4 alters that signal via the CANbus. The only piggyback connecting to MAF I've seen is ESS. The rest of them take TMAP, MAP, and RPM only.

Also, regarding Dinan, I'm not sure it actually has CANbus or EWG control. A lot of claims are made but someone would need to independently verify it by examining the harness.

BMS warranties their tuners for 12 months.

Mike
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      02-04-2015, 07:00 PM   #6
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been looking for something like this to pop up...thanks!

looks like the only piggy back that can clear CEL from DP is the JB4 or the macht Schnell module
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      02-04-2015, 07:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
CAM angle and RPM are the same sensor. Which can be read via the CAM sensor or more directly via the CANbus. With CANbus any sensor or signal in the vehicle can be read. Which is why the JB4 can have in dash controls, exhaust flapper control, read/delete faults from any module on the vehicle, etc.

Your sheet is missing fuel mass which is a critical one. The JB4 includes it. It's also missing RS232/USB which is important for firmware updates at home, data logging, etc. The JB4 and Stage1 both include that. The JB4 also includes EWG. The JB4 and Stage1 do not read MAF. Stage1 doesn't require it and the JB4 alters that signal via the CANbus. The only piggyback connecting to MAF I've seen is ESS. The rest of them take TMAP, MAP, and RPM only.

Also, regarding Dinan, I'm not sure it actually has CANbus or EWG control. A lot of claims are made but someone would need to independently verify it by examining the harness.

BMS warranties their tuners for 12 months.

Mike
What does the warranty cover?
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      02-04-2015, 07:19 PM   #8
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We are installing 2 different piggyback tunes here tomorrow and immediately strapping the cars to our dyno. Will post all results shortly
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      02-04-2015, 07:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
CAM angle and RPM are the same sensor. Which can be read via the CAM sensor or more directly via the CANbus. With CANbus any sensor or signal in the vehicle can be read. Which is why the JB4 can have in dash controls, exhaust flapper control, read/delete faults from any module on the vehicle, etc.

Your sheet is missing fuel mass which is a critical one. The JB4 includes it. It's also missing RS232/USB which is important for firmware updates at home, data logging, etc. The JB4 and Stage1 both include that. The JB4 also includes EWG. The JB4 and Stage1 do not read MAF. Stage1 doesn't require it and the JB4 alters that signal via the CANbus. The only piggyback connecting to MAF I've seen is ESS. The rest of them take TMAP, MAP, and RPM only.

Also, regarding Dinan, I'm not sure it actually has CANbus or EWG control. A lot of claims are made but someone would need to independently verify it by examining the harness.

BMS warranties their tuners for 12 months.

Mike
Thank you Mike! I was hoping people who know what they are talking about would comment on the thread. I'll update everything soon.
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      02-05-2015, 09:43 AM   #10
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1) The boost pressure sensor that Active/Turner refer to - do others use this too?

2) Are Active Autowerkes and Turner Motorsport are same product? Same housing? Looking at the installation instructions, they display the same images and they even show a (black) ECU with the same serial number. One is $500 more.

http://images.activeautowerke.com/In...55-F80M4M3.pdf

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/imag..._M3_F82_M4.pdf
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      02-05-2015, 10:12 AM   #11
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I'm interested in the ability of these tunes to work as designed at high altitudes. There appears to be a difference between MAF & MAP based versus MAP only tunes according to discussions here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=224799

Comments?
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      02-05-2015, 10:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
1) The boost pressure sensor that Active/Turner refer to - do others use this too?

2) Are Active Autowerkes and Turner Motorsport are same product? Same housing? Looking at the installation instructions, they display the same images and they even show a (black) ECU with the same serial number. One is $500 more.

http://images.activeautowerke.com/In...55-F80M4M3.pdf

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/imag..._M3_F82_M4.pdf
Hmmmm, you might be right on the Active/Turner products. The literature shows the two products are the same – with one costing $500 more. Never noticed this before.

As for the table, you show ESS S55 gaining 550HP/560Tq – not sure that is accurate but perhaps Roman can confirm. Feel free to use this info to update your blank cells.

ESS - “Stage 1 is designed for pump fuel and adds + 60-70 CHP / 60-70 TQ over stock depending on fuel quality. Testing was done on a 100% stock M4 running 91 octane fuel.”

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1046287


Dinan – “Stage 1 (DINANTRONICS™ Performance Tuner ONLY) Maximum Power: 516 HP, 489 lb-ft of torque.”

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1036115
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      02-05-2015, 12:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoTalent View Post
We are installing 2 different piggyback tunes here tomorrow and immediately strapping the cars to our dyno. Will post all results shortly
Which 2?? Waiting on results
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      02-05-2015, 12:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigwet View Post
I'm interested in the ability of these tunes to work as designed at high altitudes. There appears to be a difference between MAF & MAP based versus MAP only tunes according to discussions here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=224799

Comments?
MAF is only used as a cross reference to load. Load is based on boost pressure, baro, and IAT, among a few other minor factors. If MAF exceeds the load values then a hidden plausibility code is triggered. Your options to work around this are to intercept or alter MAF as ESS and Dinan do, or alter them using CANbus logic as the JB4 does. Without CANbus or MAF connections you will trigger a hidden code eventually above around 50whp.

I can't stress enough how important the fuel mass connector is to tuning these vehicles at higher power levels. I'm really shocked that it appears only Dinan and JB4 offer it.

Mike
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      02-05-2015, 01:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthGuY View Post
Which 2?? Waiting on results
Velos and AA. Velos is strapped to our dyno as I type this

Edit: Here it is: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...8#post17351658
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Last edited by AutoTalent; 02-05-2015 at 05:09 PM..
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      02-05-2015, 05:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
MAF is only used as a cross reference to load. Load is based on boost pressure, baro, and IAT, among a few other minor factors. If MAF exceeds the load values then a hidden plausibility code is triggered. Your options to work around this are to intercept or alter MAF as ESS and Dinan do, or alter them using CANbus logic as the JB4 does. Without CANbus or MAF connections you will trigger a hidden code eventually above around 50whp.

I can't stress enough how important the fuel mass connector is to tuning these vehicles at higher power levels. I'm really shocked that it appears only Dinan and JB4 offer it.

Mike
Dinan, Dinan, Dinan.
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      02-05-2015, 07:21 PM   #17
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i feel like back then (audi flash tune/piggyback) always mention how much boost is increased. doesnt seem to be the case anymore with these tunes huh. anyone know how much boost is increased on jb4?
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      02-05-2015, 10:12 PM   #18
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Op,

Some things to add.

1.Our money back guarantee is 30days. As with all of our products the warranty is 2 years unlimited miles.
2. Module has 9 different map settings. Default boost set to 21psi
3.Our piggy back loaded with an in house created tune not generic.
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      02-06-2015, 09:47 AM   #19
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Thanks for all the help so far. Hope Roman@ESS & Dinan_Engineering chime in here.
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      02-06-2015, 10:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
MAF is only used as a cross reference to load. Load is based on boost pressure, baro, and IAT, among a few other minor factors. If MAF exceeds the load values then a hidden plausibility code is triggered. Your options to work around this are to intercept or alter MAF as ESS and Dinan do, or alter them using CANbus logic as the JB4 does. Without CANbus or MAF connections you will trigger a hidden code eventually above around 50whp.

I can't stress enough how important the fuel mass connector is to tuning these vehicles at higher power levels. I'm really shocked that it appears only Dinan and JB4 offer it.

Mike
How does the JB4 on the F80 scale / bias fuel? I am going to guess it can't because the fuel tables are written and once you encroach the threshold of the fuel trims, it goes lean.
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      02-06-2015, 10:15 AM   #21
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Now that's real contribution.
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      02-06-2015, 10:40 AM   #22
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Quote:
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What does the warranty cover?
The unit itself and nothing else is my guess.
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