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      09-30-2013, 08:55 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Oh my goodness what part of EQUALLY EQUIPPED don't people get?!?! That means, weighing a DCT car vs. a DCT car, and a 6MT car vs. a 6MT car, and all that, you know...
My point is, I flat out dont believe BMW. Until I see actual numbers, this is all marketing propaganda to me.
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      09-30-2013, 09:10 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
My point is, I flat out dont believe BMW. Until I see actual numbers, this is all marketing propaganda to me.
Good for you.

But still don't explain YOUR calculations you presented us with, which REALLY didn't add up...

Is it the E9X M3 specs you don't believe, the F8x specs or any specs provided by BMW?

So, do you believe that a car that is based on a new model F3x, which to begin with is 15kg lighter than it's predecessor (E92 335i vs F32 435i), has a smaller engine (V8 vs I6), has a lighter gearbox, has CFRP roof etc. isn't lighter than the E92 M3?
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      09-30-2013, 09:12 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
Actually there was a lot ... As in 450 to 480hp and under e46 weight and triple turbo...
Which turned out to be... Just rumours. No tri turbo.

Are you saying you based your decision on E9X or F8X on rumours?
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      09-30-2013, 11:26 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Boss330
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Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
Actually there was a lot ... As in 450 to 480hp and under e46 weight and triple turbo...
Which turned out to be... Just rumours. No tri turbo.

Are you saying you based your decision on E9X or F8X on rumours?
I based my decision on the fact that we KNEW the next model was doing to be a 6 cylinder turbo.

I KNEW that the next one would be faster than the outgoing (doesn't take much to know that right?) and I didn't care because I absolutely love the S65 and it's more than good enough for my needs. I never turn on my radio (except when the gf is in the car and wants music) because I have a symphony under my hood magnified by my AA exhaust.

You satisfied..? Lol

The M is my weekend car/track car and I love it as is. My forced induction daily car is my S4.

Is your goal to shoot down all E9x owners? Is it really so hard to believe some people actually love the S65 and don't cry about fuel costs?

Enjoy your day ... It's a beautiful sunny day here and I'll be taking my M to work instead of my S4.
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      09-30-2013, 11:35 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Good for you.

But still don't explain YOUR calculations you presented us with, which REALLY didn't add up...

Is it the E9X M3 specs you don't believe, the F8x specs or any specs provided by BMW?

So, do you believe that a car that is based on a new model F3x, which to begin with is 15kg lighter than it's predecessor (E92 335i vs F32 435i), has a smaller engine (V8 vs I6), has a lighter gearbox, has CFRP roof etc. isn't lighter than the E92 M3?
I believe it MAY BE lighter, but not by the amount they claim.

The e92 m3 is def a pretty heavy car, and even if the new f82 is 35XX lbs as most have proven out it will be (fully loaded), thats still not a light car either way.
At the same time, as Ive previously said, any weight loss is nice and I dont see M cars as viable track cars anymore so 3500 lbs isnt a huge issue for me. I would not track any car over ~3100-3200 lbs. It is nice to see them making the effort, but as weve seen before, the e92 m3 was "claimed" to have been lighter and it wasnt, so my skepticism stems from that. And IMO, the M5/M6/M6GC are totally the antithesis of what BMW M stands, or once stood for. I have hope that the M3/4 being their bread and butter wont be a failure like those cars.
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      09-30-2013, 01:38 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
I believe it MAY BE lighter, but not by the amount they claim.

The e92 m3 is def a pretty heavy car, and even if the new f82 is 35XX lbs as most have proven out it will be (fully loaded), thats still not a light car either way.
At the same time, as Ive previously said, any weight loss is nice and I dont see M cars as viable track cars anymore so 3500 lbs isnt a huge issue for me. I would not track any car over ~3100-3200 lbs. It is nice to see them making the effort, but as weve seen before, the e92 m3 was "claimed" to have been lighter and it wasnt, so my skepticism stems from that. And IMO, the M5/M6/M6GC are totally the antithesis of what BMW M stands, or once stood for. I have hope that the M3/4 being their bread and butter wont be a failure like those cars.
The M5/M6 "failure" is still faster in every way than it's predecessors

But, I agree. The lighter the better
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      09-30-2013, 01:45 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
I based my decision on the fact that we KNEW the next model was doing to be a 6 cylinder turbo.

I KNEW that the next one would be faster than the outgoing (doesn't take much to know that right?) and I didn't care because I absolutely love the S65 and it's more than good enough for my needs. I never turn on my radio (except when the gf is in the car and wants music) because I have a symphony under my hood magnified by my AA exhaust.

You satisfied..? Lol

The M is my weekend car/track car and I love it as is. My forced induction daily car is my S4.

Is your goal to shoot down all E9x owners? Is it really so hard to believe some people actually love the S65 and don't cry about fuel costs?

Enjoy your day ... It's a beautiful sunny day here and I'll be taking my M to work instead of my S4.
I have no problem believing that you love your car, and the E9x M3 obviously is a great car and will be a future classic.

However, it was your negativity towards the F8x that made me ask what I did... To paraphrase, is it so hard to believe that many actually are excited about the new F8x cars, return to a straight six and more accessible power delivery?

I have enjoyed my day btw, sunny and crisp autumn weather. Local launch of the 4-series later this week as well
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      09-30-2013, 01:49 PM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
I believe it MAY BE lighter, but not by the amount they claim.

The e92 m3 is def a pretty heavy car, and even if the new f82 is 35XX lbs as most have proven out it will be (fully loaded), thats still not a light car either way.
At the same time, as Ive previously said, any weight loss is nice and I dont see M cars as viable track cars anymore so 3500 lbs isnt a huge issue for me. I would not track any car over ~3100-3200 lbs. It is nice to see them making the effort, but as weve seen before, the e92 m3 was "claimed" to have been lighter and it wasnt, so my skepticism stems from that. And IMO, the M5/M6/M6GC are totally the antithesis of what BMW M stands, or once stood for. I have hope that the M3/4 being their bread and butter wont be a failure like those cars.
The good news is that we will likely see a downward trend in our performance cars over time as technology and CAFE laws drive that move.
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      09-30-2013, 02:44 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The M5/M6 "failure" is still faster in every way than it's predecessors

But, I agree. The lighter the better
The reason I say failure is that the driving feeling is so isolated and while the are faster than previous versions, they arent as good to drive. Read what was said about the M6 in the MT Best Driver's car...it was pretty bad.

Lighter is always better. Ill gladly trade outright power for less weight...especially when that car performs in the real world far more than its paper stats (ala 911).
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      10-02-2013, 05:22 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
The reason I say failure is that the driving feeling is so isolated and while the are faster than previous versions, they arent as good to drive. Read what was said about the M6 in the MT Best Driver's car...it was pretty bad.

Lighter is always better. Ill gladly trade outright power for less weight...especially when that car performs in the real world far more than its paper stats (ala 911).
Do you have that info just from a magazine article or have you compared the various generations of M5's yourselves?

Because there are plenty of tests that doesn't say it's isolated or a "failure"... If you have had many hours behind the wheel of current and previous gen M5's then your view holds more substance. If not it's nothing but the opinion of a keyboard warrior...

Last edited by Boss330; 10-02-2013 at 05:31 PM..
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      10-02-2013, 05:49 PM   #627
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Watch out Boss.....posts like that ^^^ will suddenly disappear. Ask me how I know.

For goodness sake some people around here think the only thing that should be tracked is a Caterham. There are plenty of cars north of 3,200 lbs that are fantastic track cars. Hell, the new C7 weighs more than 3,200 lbs.
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      10-02-2013, 05:58 PM   #628
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yes they are gone, I worked so hard in your response and now it's gone ...

It's just a matter of preference. There's people that don't care about being fast and have a car that can sustain the whole weekend of fun, there's others that want to have fun and have a car that can be driven to it's limits and actually reward the driver, and can do it over and over and over again.

A car that's heavy not only makes the whole 'system' work a lot harder, and will also be more expensive to run and most of the time less pleasurable to drive.
But as you know it all ....

On paper corvette has everything to be a great track car, as long it works, it will be, I personally can't get over how the car looks. Still cheap, but not that cheap, I'll still need to drive it.

Just like a ugly fat girl that is a great performer. You still have to look at her while you have sex....
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      10-02-2013, 06:00 PM   #629
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Don't disagree on the back end of the C7. It's awful looking IMO
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      10-02-2013, 06:03 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by m3evobr View Post
yes they are gone, I worked so hard in your response and now it's gone ...

It's just a matter of preference. There's people that don't care about being fast and have a car that can sustain the whole weekend of fun, there's others that want to have fun and have a car that can be driven to it's limits and actually reward the driver, and can do it over and over and over again.

A car that's heavy not only makes the whole 'system' work a lot harder, and will also be more expensive to run and most of the time less pleasurable to drive.
But as you know it all ....

On paper corvette has everything to be a great track car, as long it works, it will be, I personally can't get over how the car looks. Still cheap, but not that cheap, I'll still need to drive it.

Just like a ugly fat girl that is a great performer. You still have to look at her while you have sex....
No I don't know it all but I do know that I tracked my 997TT, 997TT, GTR, first E92 M3 and they were fantastic to take to the track. Would I want to track them every weekend? No....but 6-8 times a year plus still be civilized to drive on the street? Hell yes.

If I wanted a pure cheap track car, I'd have an S2000 or something like that.
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      10-02-2013, 06:05 PM   #631
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A lot worse in person than on the pics, and also what about the ride height ?
Car has more than 3 inches of gap on the wheel well, not only that but the carbon roof, looked like it went thru hail ... really bumpy, and the orange peal on the panels are awful.
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      10-02-2013, 06:11 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by m3evobr View Post
A lot worse in person than on the pics, and also what about the ride height ?
Car has more than 3 inches of gap on the wheel well, not only that but the carbon roof, looked like it went thru hail ... really bumpy, and the orange peal on the panels are awful.
It looks like a 4x4. I hear it settles down some over a couple of weeks but will still be nowhere near what I like. Porsche is no better in this department. They ALL need springs or c/o save for the GT3/GT2.

Orange peel complaints are all over the Corvette Forum.
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      10-02-2013, 06:12 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
No I don't know it all but I do know that I tracked my 997TT, 997TT, GTR, first E92 M3 and they were fantastic to take to the track. Would I want to track them every weekend? No....but 6-8 times a year plus still be civilized to drive on the street? Hell yes.

If I wanted a pure cheap track car, I'd have an S2000 or something like that.
I agree on double duty cars like you do, that's the reason why I kept tracking street cars up to a point (watch the videos, and for the most part all street cars)
The problem for me is with cars that can't withstand the track use when used to it's full potential, and besides the 997TT there, they can't.
The E92 is a great compromise, but in order to work on track the way I personally like) would take too much work and $$$ that you will never see back again.
I already posted my personal experience with the GT-R, it's just not for me, although is a stupid fast car.
The older I get, the more I like the older cars, lighter, smaller, more analog, with less HP so you don't get in trouble on the road.
It can still be done, and looks like BMW is proving it again. They moved away from their driving experience from the older cars after the E36 (Euro) IMO.
I'm looking forward to see the results in real world.

When you have chance to drive a lightweight driver's car in anger, do it ... it will change your perception. I assure you.
And I don't mean 3000 lbs, I mean 2000-2500 max.
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      10-02-2013, 06:15 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
It looks like a 4x4. I hear it settles down some over a couple of weeks but will still be nowhere near what I like. Porsche is no better in this department. They ALL need springs or c/o.

Orange peel complaints are all over the Corvette Forum.
At the end of the day it's a pretty penny to be able to compromise so much.
Unfortunately Porsche still alone in this department, would be fantastic to have another brand trying to take their spot, so they can review the stupidity of only offering a PDK GT car, full of gizmos, in the meantime I'll keep the 'old' Mezger with 3 pedal technology.
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      10-02-2013, 11:32 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by gymtime View Post
Nope. I'll take a high-revving V8 over a FI 6. I don't care if it's a little faster. Still going to be an awesome car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
I based my decision on the fact that we KNEW the next model was doing to be a 6 cylinder turbo.

I KNEW that the next one would be faster than the outgoing (doesn't take much to know that right?) and I didn't care because I absolutely love the S65 and it's more than good enough for my needs. I never turn on my radio (except when the gf is in the car and wants music) because I have a symphony under my hood magnified by my AA exhaust.

You satisfied..? Lol

The M is my weekend car/track car and I love it as is. My forced induction daily car is my S4.

Is your goal to shoot down all E9x owners? Is it really so hard to believe some people actually love the S65 and don't cry about fuel costs?

Enjoy your day ... It's a beautiful sunny day here and I'll be taking my M to work instead of my S4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Do you have that info just from a magazine article or have you compared the various generations of M5's yourselves?

Because there are plenty of tests that doesn't say it's isolated or a "failure"... If you have had many hours behind the wheel of current and previous gen M5's then your view holds more substance. If not it's nothing but the opinion of a keyboard warrior...
Just so you know.. I bought one of the last produced S65 V8 M3 in the last week of production June 2013. I took ED delivery and am still waiting on my car to be delivered US side. It is the car I wanted then and want now. If the F82 M4 had been V8, I would have waited but not for an I6 TT. I wanted a Naturally Aspirated engine with its glorious magnificient symphonical mechanical sound and absolute agile response at all RPM all the way to 8300 redline. Plus (I could not have predicted that) Mine has hydraulic steering with active assist and servotronic, this does not (electric steering car). I am absolutely thrilled with my choice . The only thing I regret is not getting individual color. But that's it. What interested me here is how the M4 was going to look, and personally I think if you look at core body lines, the E92 M3 has more beautiful and naturally flowing and pleasing curves than the F82, especially on the front 3/4 side. The additional cosmetic accessories bolted on the F82 body that the E92 does not have stock (CF in the Exhaust area and CF+chrome pipes, front carbon lip) are just trying to hard to redempt what is missing in the core body lines. Strip one of these M4 of these accessories and compare with a stock E92 M3... Also the radiator area looks crushed (that is a new 3 series trait), and i already did not like seeing it then. What I like are the 20'' wheels, the rest in my humble opinion the E92 has stronger fondamentals in the design. Would I switch my new car for an I6 TT ? no, for the money I would much rather have an individual paint E92 (dakkar yellow E92 M3 ) although that was no longer possible when I ordered mine (end of production). I know the E92 is the most fun car to drive and that is going to be very hard to beat with a non NA engine and electric steering (and not to mention engine sound coming through speakers ).

For people who missed the E92 M3 waited too long to place an order and would be okay with a non NA engine, I would save a little more and go with a GT-R. There will be no question about it.

Last edited by V8FunNaturally; 10-02-2013 at 11:49 PM..
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      10-03-2013, 01:12 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
It looks like a 4x4. I hear it settles down some over a couple of weeks but will still be nowhere near what I like. Porsche is no better in this department. They ALL need springs or c/o save for the GT3/GT2.

Orange peel complaints are all over the Corvette Forum.
As far as I can tell, NO OWNER of a C7 has complained of orange peel...since the damn car on;y has a few owners in the US, all the cars that have been seen are pre-production cars...
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      10-03-2013, 01:14 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by m3evobr View Post
A lot worse in person than on the pics, and also what about the ride height ?
Car has more than 3 inches of gap on the wheel well, not only that but the carbon roof, looked like it went thru hail ... really bumpy, and the orange peal on the panels are awful.
Huh, the carbon roof looks good, and the cars are pre-production, as far as i could tell, nobody has complain of the C7 and orange peel, yet...
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      10-03-2013, 07:55 AM   #638
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Huh, the carbon roof looks good, and the cars are pre-production, as far as i could tell, nobody has complain of the C7 and orange peel, yet...
Actually I saw the first comments about the orange peel from people seeing cars in events, and the car I actually saw was a sold car in a local dealer, so a final car as it already had his new owner's plate on, so the bad finish stands.
Bad carbon and paint job.
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