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      12-10-2013, 11:12 AM   #353
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I test drove an '11 M3 DCT yesterday and while I loved the car I was shocked at how poor the interior quality is for a $75,000 car. Yes, it is superior to many other cars but it was a far cry from what I was expecting. The '12 CTS-V I drove at the same dealership just before had a much nicer interior.
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      12-10-2013, 12:30 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
I test drove an '11 M3 DCT yesterday and while I loved the car I was shocked at how poor the interior quality is for a $75,000 car. Yes, it is superior to many other cars but it was a far cry from what I was expecting. The '12 CTS-V I drove at the same dealership just before had a much nicer interior.
+1 3 series //M or not don't have much of what anyone would consider a luxurious interior. Not sure why everyone keeps saying they do. 5 series, OK, but 3 series isn't anything to brag about.
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      12-10-2013, 12:44 PM   #355
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I read a lot of comments about rattles in the f30, including on 2013 and 2014 models. And of course the rusty seat "issue" for many.

And, obviously this is just anecdote, but I see TONS of e46 and e90 m3s around here and plenty of 3-series in general. This is SE PA and NJ though.

I'm just saying neither the 3-series nor M3 is a rare car anymore. BMW moved to be a mass-market vehicle a number of years ago and have been very successful.

I'm not saying the Mustang won't be higher volume, but these arguments about exclusivity are....odd. Sure, you'll see 5 mustangs a day in 5 years. And you'll see 2 M3's.
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      12-10-2013, 01:01 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
+1 3 series //M or not don't have much of what anyone would consider a luxurious interior. Not sure why everyone keeps saying they do. 5 series, OK, but 3 series isn't anything to brag about.
x2. I mean the interior is fine but really is nothing to brag about. If I had bought my car new (list price of mid 40s) I would expected the interior to be nicer.
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      12-10-2013, 01:13 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Xpander View Post
I see a lot of comments on superior fit and finish of German cars as if that's the only thing driving up prices of the BMWs. I agree to some extent but honestly most of these car companies use the same handful of plastic/mold suppliers anyways so it is not as obvious anymore. Welcome to globalization.
True, but they all build to spec, and the specs are different in a Kia than they are in a BMW. Or a Ford.

I'm not going to get into the E90 versus F30 interior quality conversation here, because that gets religious fast and it's not what this thread is about. But I will say that in my line of work I drive a different rental car almost every week, and I do see a difference in the quality of interior between a $25,000 Chrysler 200 and a BMW. I just do. Jeep Grand Cherokees and Cadillacs are different, but there's another price point.

You make a good point about the cost of the German labor force. I think, though, that the same could be said for the Americans, which is one of the things that's been killing the industry here for decades, and also one of the reasons Hyundai and Kia are making so much progress.

Someone said that they were disappointed in the M3 interior as a $70,000 car. Right - the M3 is a $45,000 car with a $25,000 powertrain. I suggest sitting in a 5 series to see what BMW thinks an interior should look like in a $70,000 car.

People all think that since the Mustang is a new model, Ford will deliver it with a different level of fit and finish than anything they've done before. It is nice that they are moving to a modern rear axle arrangement - but I do expect the interior and the overall level of refinement to still be of a Ford. There's nothing wrong with that - I own and love an Explorer myself.
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      12-10-2013, 01:57 PM   #358
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I hate when people list rental car experience as a knock against a car maker, generally. You are getting the most ragged out, poverty-specced version of that car imaginable. Rental fleet cars are, by definition, cheap and disposable, so of course they will look cheap and disposable. You need to find a car on a dealer lot that is optioned the way that an actual purchaser would option it to really get a feel for the car.
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      12-10-2013, 01:58 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post

Someone said that they were disappointed in the M3 interior as a $70,000 car. Right - the M3 is a $45,000 car with a $25,000 powertrain. I suggest sitting in a 5 series to see what BMW thinks an interior should look like in a $70,000 car.

People all think that since the Mustang is a new model, Ford will deliver it with a different level of fit and finish than anything they've done before. It is nice that they are moving to a modern rear axle arrangement - but I do expect the interior and the overall level of refinement to still be of a Ford. There's nothing wrong with that - I own and love an Explorer myself.
Just a couple things:

BMW achieves f10 5-series level of interior at a ~$55k base price point vs. say a $35k base price point of the 3-series (what the minimally equipped COMMON model might be for both). At heart though, the 3-series is a $35k base level vehicle with an interior that's befitting, say, a $29k car (i.e. Acura TSX/ILX).

In regards to Ford, I'm not expecting an interior befitting a $30k vehicle.

I am expecting a $23-24k interior (think: Subaru Legacy/Forester) with a $10k extra drivetrain, suspension, and brake package.

As long as people don't have unrealistic expectations, I think they are going to be surprised and pleased with Ford's new mustang interior. Not blown away, but more like "I could see myself in this enjoying watching the hood lift into the horizon when I unleash those ponies."
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      12-10-2013, 03:35 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Dave2011M3 View Post
You are so misinformed, the S55 engine will not have a TriTurbo. Also, how will the M3/M4 kill the new Mustang when neither the M3/4 nor the 2015 Mustang are even in production yet?

The Mustang will make more hp than the M3/M4 weigh just as much and have more torque. If anything it sounds like more of a drivers race to me.

The fanbois are coming out of the wood work..

Do agree that BMW made a mistake dropping the V8 though.

Dave
I do not care how they gonna turbo charge it, tri, quad ..etc, I am not dropping 75K on a similar I6 to what I have now. my money will go to AMG for a 507 edition and yes i will be slower in corners but as most people I do not care because I will never track the car.
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      12-10-2013, 08:47 PM   #361
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To anyone that is trying to side the M3 as just some luxury car, don't forget BMW's advertisement:



BMW makes this out to be some class-leader track car. It sorta is, but it definitely ISN'T just some luxury car with a V8. BMW relies on image and prestige more than anything, which I can see half of you fanbois fell for. If you want that look of class and styling, BMW makes beautiful-looking cars all over their lineup. Just don't come in here pretending that you know the Mustang GT will just fall miles short in performance. I guarantee you it won't, and you will be in for a rude awakening when you go up against one (especially if it has some drivetrain mods).

I ordered my 2011 M3 before the current Mustang GT was out. I don't regret it, in hindsight, but for this new generation I think BMW isn't giving me what I want (a NA high-powered V8 I can take to the track in a sports car package). Sure the new M3/M4 will be fast and styled nice, but it's not the same sort of drivetrain. I've raced in Formula Renault 1600 and other great track cars, and having a NA engine is a thing of beauty.

Further, I plan to mod my car, and starting with such a great base platform with gobs of cheap performance parts to boot, the Mustang GT will win hands down, AND FOR HALF THE PRICE!

I love BMW. The heritage, the styling, the attention to detail, I'm still sold; just not on spending so much on their sports cars anymore. I think at this point I'm looking at a 2 year lease on an M235i or a 550i w/ some stiffer springs while I wait for a good deal on my new S550 Mustang GT.
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      12-10-2013, 09:20 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nf
I hate when people list rental car experience as a knock against a car maker, generally. You are getting the most ragged out, poverty-specced version of that car imaginable. Rental fleet cars are, by definition, cheap and disposable, so of course they will look cheap and disposable. You need to find a car on a dealer lot that is optioned the way that an actual purchaser would option it to really get a feel for the car.
What car has an interior made out of different materials based on which options I spec? Aside from Porsches and high end BMWs.
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      12-10-2013, 09:32 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post

People all think that since the Mustang is a new model, Ford will deliver it with a different level of fit and finish than anything they've done before. It is nice that they are moving to a modern rear axle arrangement - but I do expect the interior and the overall level of refinement to still be of a Ford. There's nothing wrong with that - I own and love an Explorer myself.
The problem with this theory is that the prices of Mustangs have stayed pretty consistent in relationship to other cars in the same market. Without pricing themselves upmarket, the interior in the Mustang has improved quite a bit since 2010.

This isn't just a Ford thing, look at how the interiors of Hyundais and some GM cars have improved in comparison to their market competitors. I also find myself in rental cars ALL THE TIME and there are some rental cars with surprisingly nice (Kia) and not-so-surprisingly garbage (basically anything Chrysler except Jeep) interiors. Car interiors aren't necessarily improving because automakers are sinking more money into interiors, they're improving because technology is improving and it's a lot easier to make a good-looking interior with synthetic materials than it was 20 years ago.

I was in a rental Fusion (w/ leather, sunroof) a month or so ago and I can say for 100% certain that the interior of that car was more modern, more comfortable, and had just as many expensive soft-touch surfaces than the F30 328 service loaner I'd driven recently.

Bottom line: BMW (and Audi) are getting lazy. Their A4/S4 and 3-series/M3 interiors have taken a significant turn for the worse since the B6 and E46 days. As unimpressive as the F30 interior is, the new S4 interior is even worse. The styling and design is well done but the car is full of hard, cheap, shiny plastic. Completely unacceptable from Audi.
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      12-10-2013, 09:37 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xpander
I see a lot of comments on superior fit and finish of German cars as if that's the only thing driving up prices of the BMWs. I agree to some extent but honestly most of these car companies use the same handful of plastic/mold suppliers anyways so it is not as obvious anymore. Welcome to globalization.

One thing to point out is that the German work force is very expensive. Every single smiling blond Germany guy you see working on the production lines in YouTube videos is fully insured, has salary high enough to be able to afford several weeks of vacation abroad, and gets six weeks paid vacation per year. So guess who is paying for all that?

Anyways...

The new mustang is going to be one hell of a car however we try to massage it.

Cheers
Great perspective! Totally agree
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      12-10-2013, 09:51 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Justin*
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER View Post
bad ass..
Sounds great! Then again, mustangs always do. The v8 ones anyway.
Omg! Here I come again ford!

Seriously, nothing I've owned has come close to the sound of my boss302 stock exhaust! Not my ls7 z06, s85 m6(s65 doesn't hold a candle to this noise) s54 z4m, maybe my gt3.... And the maintenance and repair is sooo cheap. I just hate the dealership experience.... perhaps ford can send their employees to one of Starbucks customer service seminars

Everyone's needs are different, but in my multicar fleet, this makes sense for a sensible daily/trackable vehicle. I would definitely choose the m4/3 if it were my only car though
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      12-10-2013, 10:03 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Ash83 View Post
I do not care how they gonna turbo charge it, tri, quad ..etc, I am not dropping 75K on a similar I6 to what I have now. my money will go to AMG for a 507 edition and yes i will be slower in corners but as most people I do not care because I will never track the car.
I think this is a very good point. I often point that fact out to people when a slower car in acceleration is touted over a quicker accelerating car that is less capable through the twisties. Most people in the US only measure their car against another's through a drag race. No matter what kind of car their driving. Unless of course they are a member of a driving club an track the car. Again, very good point.
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      12-10-2013, 10:23 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
I test drove an '11 M3 DCT yesterday and while I loved the car I was shocked at how poor the interior quality is for a $75,000 car. Yes, it is superior to many other cars but it was a far cry from what I was expecting. The '12 CTS-V I drove at the same dealership just before had a much nicer interior.
I think the CTS-V should be more compared to an M5. They are competitors. Even still; I prefer the M3 interior. I need to stop right there before I even get started on Cadillac. I could go on and on about their fallacies.
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      12-10-2013, 10:32 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
I read a lot of comments about rattles in the f30, including on 2013 and 2014 models. And of course the rusty seat "issue" for many.

And, obviously this is just anecdote, but I see TONS of e46 and e90 m3s around here and plenty of 3-series in general. This is SE PA and NJ though.

I'm just saying neither the 3-series nor M3 is a rare car anymore. BMW moved to be a mass-market vehicle a number of years ago and have been very successful.

I'm not saying the Mustang won't be higher volume, but these arguments about exclusivity are....odd. Sure, you'll see 5 mustangs a day in 5 years. And you'll see 2 M3's.
Honestly, I think it just must be your local area. In Dallas/Fort Worth; I see maybe three M3's every three months or so....maybe. In our general area the range is lower middle class to wealthy within 10 miles. M3's are pretty rare. There is one e92 M3 in the neighborhood across from mine. I see it every few weeks. Conversely, there are a ton of 3 series all over the place.

*I'm much more of a home body now than I used to be since the kids. So, maybe that is a contributing factor*
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      12-10-2013, 11:30 PM   #369
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Since you brought up the KIA vs BMW and someone else pointed out the difference is shrinking fast due to globalization and same materials being used more or less everywhere give or take a bit.

I recently sold my 2005 E60 BMW 545i spt. pkg after 5 year of ownership it was bought to replace our previous E39 525i.

To replace it I looked at lots of options and went for KIA Optima Hybrid. For the price it is hell of a car that offers lots of features. The car is larger and more roomy, the gas mileage is fantastic, offers plenty of features standard, and drinks regular gas, the maintenance is dirt cheap compared to the BMW. The car is averaging 36.6 mpg mostly all city driving. The interior design is nice and the plastic used is not cheap hard variety. The car looks great and drives nicer then what I expected. It is no performance sedan but then again the new BMW cars do not feel like how they used to either. The overly soft core nature and god awful EPS setups combined with overweight cars is not my cup of tea. The new 5 series almost is as large as my E65 7 series. I think BMW is turning its focus more from sports to luxury and that is not what attracted me to the BMW's in first place.

As a owner of two past 5 series that lasted me last 10 years the F10 did not excite me one bit. If I am going to buy a comfortable appliance then I will save some money while doing it. Thus, a fully loaded Kia Optima Hybrid instead of new BMW F10.

Now as I look towards buying a sporty car. It seems like once again BMW has less to offer and one can get a better offering from say GM with C7 stingray.

On that note based on looks, interior design, and Ford taking care of the engineering flaws that effected Mustangs handling. The new mustang holds a lot more promise and if you look at improvement they improved core areas. In context they made a bigger leap then say a said BMW 4 series did over BMW 3 series coupe. Maybe the next generation 3/4 will make a bigger leap lets hope.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
True, but they all build to spec, and the specs are different in a Kia than they are in a BMW. Or a Ford.

I'm not going to get into the E90 versus F30 interior quality conversation here, because that gets religious fast and it's not what this thread is about. But I will say that in my line of work I drive a different rental car almost every week, and I do see a difference in the quality of interior between a $25,000 Chrysler 200 and a BMW. I just do. Jeep Grand Cherokees and Cadillacs are different, but there's another price point.

You make a good point about the cost of the German labor force. I think, though, that the same could be said for the Americans, which is one of the things that's been killing the industry here for decades, and also one of the reasons Hyundai and Kia are making so much progress.

Someone said that they were disappointed in the M3 interior as a $70,000 car. Right - the M3 is a $45,000 car with a $25,000 powertrain. I suggest sitting in a 5 series to see what BMW thinks an interior should look like in a $70,000 car.

People all think that since the Mustang is a new model, Ford will deliver it with a different level of fit and finish than anything they've done before. It is nice that they are moving to a modern rear axle arrangement - but I do expect the interior and the overall level of refinement to still be of a Ford. There's nothing wrong with that - I own and love an Explorer myself.
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      12-11-2013, 12:53 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
I test drove an '11 M3 DCT yesterday and while I loved the car I was shocked at how poor the interior quality is for a $75,000 car. Yes, it is superior to many other cars but it was a far cry from what I was expecting. The '12 CTS-V I drove at the same dealership just before had a much nicer interior.
My wife says she gets a headache every time she rides in my M3 - the suspension is too harsh, the shifts are harsh, the engine is loud...

The M5 is BMW's sporty, powerful, luxo-boat, the M3 is more hard-core. Like someone else said, a $45K car with a $25K drivetrain.
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      12-11-2013, 03:11 AM   #371
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That is a serious problem and she has a point. I think it is time to trade her in for a new wife.

J/K......lol

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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
My wife says she gets a headache every time she rides in my M3 - the suspension is too harsh, the shifts are harsh, the engine is loud...
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      12-11-2013, 06:19 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
My wife says she gets a headache every time she rides in my M3 - the suspension is too harsh, the shifts are harsh, the engine is loud...

The M5 is BMW's sporty, powerful, luxo-boat, the M3 is more hard-core. Like someone else said, a $45K car with a $25K drivetrain.
I never hear the end of it from the g/f about the ride in the M3. I take a turn a bit hard and I just get angry sass. BMW needs to come out with a fun g/f option.
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      12-11-2013, 06:36 AM   #373
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I dunno my gf loves riding in the m3 (definite keeper).. Her only gripe is when I put it's needs before hers like when the M needed test pipes and a tune.
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      12-11-2013, 07:32 AM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
My wife says she gets a headache every time she rides in my M3 - the suspension is too harsh, the shifts are harsh, the engine is loud...

The M5 is BMW's sporty, powerful, luxo-boat, the M3 is more hard-core. Like someone else said, a $45K car with a $25K drivetrain.
That sux! Sorry man.
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