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      12-10-2014, 02:34 AM   #23
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i could carless about soul, turbos, eletric steering. as long as the car looks great, is fun to drive, and as a appealing engine. i am a good.
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      12-10-2014, 09:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
And I agree. The total proof on the F80 will be how it does against the C63, RS5 and maybe ATS-V. I fully expect some reviews to beat the M3 for the reasons I just explained in yet another long winded post)
I should add that I am optimistic that the F8x will do well over time against its rivals in part because most of these jobbers were benchmarked against the previous M3 and so they are mostly outfitted with V8's.

Meanwhile BMW has moved on to better things. The F8x is still new and some of its charms are yet to be fully appreciated by journalists who have only borrowed them for a few romps around a track.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a collection of turbo 6's next go-around. Meanwhile the ///M will have a turbo 4 and maybe an electric motor i8 style.

Thanks for coming out.
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      12-10-2014, 11:21 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ghost34 View Post
thanks! solid read. you want to take on my wife's credit card statement next?

the evo write up for their COTY was really harsh compared to most everything I've read or watched and that surprised me
Yeah, well that one in particular demonstrates the whipsaw that the front runner faces.

The original Evo review (when the car was right fresh) and compared to an F-Type said the car only shone at the limits, but for the other 95% of the time the F-Type was better.

Then this review came out and it was 'this car is uncontrollable at the limits'.

Again, the two loud critics are Autocar and Evo. Other than that, it is a positive picture.

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I should add that I am optimistic that the F8x will do well over time against its rivals in part because most of these jobbers were benchmarked against the previous M3 and so they are mostly outfitted with V8's.

Meanwhile BMW has moved on to better things. The F8x is still new and some of its charms are yet to be fully appreciated by journalists who have only borrowed them for a few romps around a track.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a collection of turbo 6's next go-around. Meanwhile the ///M will have a turbo 4 and maybe an electric motor i8 style.

Thanks for coming out.
MmmmmmHmmmmmmmm.
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      12-10-2014, 11:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
I should add that I am optimistic that the F8x will do well over time against its rivals in part because most of these jobbers were benchmarked against the previous M3 and so they are mostly outfitted with V8's.

Meanwhile BMW has moved on to better things. The F8x is still new and some of its charms are yet to be fully appreciated by journalists who have only borrowed them for a few romps around a track.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a collection of turbo 6's next go-around. Meanwhile the ///M will have a turbo 4 and maybe an electric motor i8 style.

Thanks for coming out.
IMO, this point is only valid for the RC-F; bringing a 2008 knife to a 2015 gun fight. So far, the benchmarks for the other cars are unknown but it seems to me that the C63 and ATs-V are gunning for the F8x. The C63 has a TTV8 and the ATS-V has a TTV6 so power delivery, engine characteristics, etc should all be very similar. Both of those also bring up weight reduction as did the M3/4; where the RC-F is not ashamed to boast that big is beautiful.

Plus, the RS4/5 is still years away and has time to benchmark against the F8x.
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      12-10-2014, 11:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
I should add that I am optimistic that the F8x will do well over time against its rivals in part because most of these jobbers were benchmarked against the previous M3 and so they are mostly outfitted with V8's.

Meanwhile BMW has moved on to better things. The F8x is still new and some of its charms are yet to be fully appreciated by journalists who have only borrowed them for a few romps around a track.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a collection of turbo 6's next go-around. Meanwhile the ///M will have a turbo 4 and maybe an electric motor i8 style.

Thanks for coming out.
4 cylinder M3 was cool in the 80s. but we are far from the 80s .

i think once we have electric motors, the need to reduce engines will become less necessary. as you can run full electric most of the time. i dont think we will see a 4 cylinder
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      12-10-2014, 11:53 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
I should add that I am optimistic that the F8x will do well over time against its rivals in part because most of these jobbers were benchmarked against the previous M3 and so they are mostly outfitted with V8's.

Meanwhile BMW has moved on to better things. The F8x is still new and some of its charms are yet to be fully appreciated by journalists who have only borrowed them for a few romps around a track.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a collection of turbo 6's next go-around. Meanwhile the ///M will have a turbo 4 and maybe an electric motor i8 style.

Thanks for coming out.
So... Tell me how new c63 and atsv is benchmarked against prev m3 ? This gonna be interesting
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      12-10-2014, 12:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by M3guy3 View Post
4 cylinder M3 was cool in the 80s. but we are far from the 80s .

I think once we have electric motors, the need to reduce engines will become less necessary. as you can run full electric most of the time. i dont think we will see a 4 cylinder
That seems to be the opposite of what is happening, though and, at least to my mind, logically the wrong direction.

In the 'hypercar' world, the P1 and 918 only have V8s (which, with their performance numbers is staggering).

In cars less beyond the mortal stratosphere, the i8 has a 1.5L inline 3 cylinder engine.

As electric motors are more efficient and powerful, less petrol 'boost' is required. Ultimately, we may do away with them altogether (see Tesla, passim.) If not, at the very least they end up taking a back seat to the tradition internal combustion.
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      12-10-2014, 12:50 PM   #30
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So... Tell me how new c63 and atsv is benchmarked against prev m3 ? This gonna be interesting
No problem.

As you know new cars just don't appear out of thin air. They take years of planning and testing. What we are seeing today appeared first on drawing boards five years ago. When the upcoming C63 AMG and ATS-V were mere twinkles in some engineer's eye, the M3 was kicking ass and taking names.

The ATS-V was unabashedly aimed at zee Germans. The C63 AMG lost a lot of heads-up comparisons to the previous M3. Would it not make sense that MB would have dissected that animal to see where they can do better?

BMW pretty much invented this automotive segment and the M3 has been the car to beat ever since. As long as BMW keep adapting and improvising it will have an advantage over its competitors who by necessity are targeting themselves against a previous model even though they obviously have plans of their own

I look forward to the comparisons. Perhaps the Caddy or the Benz can at last steal the baton from BMW. Perhaps that will be a needed wake-up call over in Munich. Meanwhile, I shall continue to enjoy my M4 and cast admiring eyes at its competitors without the need to roll them at all.
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      12-10-2014, 02:04 PM   #31
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The most disappointing one here is the Evo magazine Car of the Year response; I saw the video and the reviewers really didn't seem happy with the car's performance on the wet/damp surfaces. The resounding response was that the car was way more of a handful to drive than it should have been.
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      12-10-2014, 02:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by bluekn8286 View Post
The most disappointing one here is the Evo magazine Car of the Year response; I saw the video and the reviewers really didn't seem happy with the car's performance on the wet/damp surfaces. The resounding response was that the car was way more of a handful to drive than it should have been.
Also the strangest.

In the initial Evo F8X vs F-Type comparison, they preferred the F-Type in the end because they said the F8X was only really great at the limits whereas the F-Type was easier to love below 95%. Then in the COTY, they went the other way, saying the M4 was too tough to handle at the limits. Maybe based on the fact it was raining, but then there were a lot of reviews from Road America when the first test drives on 'Murican soil happened that were really wet - and they sang its praises in hard driving on a very challenging, wet track.

As I said in the OP, I really do think there is something to Chris Harris' concern that some of the English automotive press has decided to target the M3/M4. Remove the Autocar results and the flip-floppy Evo comments, and this car is bullet proof in these comparisons.
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      12-10-2014, 02:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluekn8286 View Post
The most disappointing one here is the Evo magazine Car of the Year response; I saw the video and the reviewers really didn't seem happy with the car's performance on the wet/damp surfaces. The resounding response was that the car was way more of a handful to drive than it should have been.
Also the strangest.

In the initial Evo F8X vs F-Type comparison, they preferred the F-Type in the end because they said the F8X was only really great at the limits whereas the F-Type was easier to love below 95%. Then in the COTY, they went the other way, saying the M4 was too tough to handle at the limits. Maybe based on the fact it was raining, but then there were a lot of reviews from Track of the Americas when the first test drives on 'Murican soil happened that were really wet - and they sang its praises in hard driving on a very challenging, wet track.

As I said in the OP, I really do think there is something to Chris Harris' concern that some of the English automotive press has decided to target the M3/M4. Remove the Autocar results and the flip-floppy Evo comments, and this car is bullet proof in these comparisons.
Watch the motor trend hot laps and see how sloppy the f type r is... judging by Pobst comments, it may have been the worst car there.
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      12-10-2014, 02:35 PM   #34
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Watch the motor trend hot laps and see how sloppy the f type r is... judging by Pobst comments, it may have been the worst car there.
And yet #2 according to Evo.........

Anyway, part of all of this fuels my other point: the competition is getting better and these cars are becoming harder and harder to distinguish between. Gone are the days when a 'Vette or 'Stang meant uncontrollable power or an Audi looked pretty and that. was. about. it. I mean, really, this segment is just three things (go fast, handle well, look pretty). Now that others have figured that out, there will be some of these up and down results and a lot of it may depend on who is doing the driving (Probst believed he could go even faster in the M4....some of these other reviewers could barely hang on)
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      12-10-2014, 02:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Watch the motor trend hot laps and see how sloppy the f type r is... judging by Pobst comments, it may have been the worst car there.
And yet #2 according to Evo.........

Anyway, part of all of this fuels my other point: the competition is getting better and these cars are becoming harder and harder to distinguish between. Gone are the days when a 'Vette or 'Stang meant uncontrollable power or an Audi looked pretty and that. was. about. it. I mean, really, this segment is just three things (go fast, handle well, look pretty). Now that others have figured that out, there will be some of these up and down results and a lot of it may depend on who is doing the driving (Probst believed he could go even faster in the M4....some of these other reviewers could barely hang on)
Look at the M4's times compared to the other cars there... lord, what a disappointment this new car is.
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      12-10-2014, 02:48 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Look at the M4's times compared to the other cars there... lord, what a disappointment this new car is.
I know. I only hope my wife doesn't read all those "ridiculous" numbers to realize how much money I have "wasted" on this "awful" car

Its fast, it handles, and it looks great. It hits the cycle, bring on the competitors!
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      12-10-2014, 04:23 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bluekn8286 View Post
The most disappointing one here is the Evo magazine Car of the Year response; I saw the video and the reviewers really didn't seem happy with the car's performance on the wet/damp surfaces. The resounding response was that the car was way more of a handful to drive than it should have been.
Here is the video I was trying to think of earlier (thanks to @grussgott for reminding me, probably unwittingly, that it was Carlos Lago)

http://wot.motortrend.com/1407_2015_...on_wvideo.html

He rips the M3 around on a very wet Road America and seems to be just fine with it unlike the Evo crew....certainly he isn't complaining about it being a terror or anything like that....and he quite likes it in the dry at the limit (about 8 min into the video)
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      12-10-2014, 04:50 PM   #38
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A monumental waste of time by some, maybe the most productive thing you did that day by others. I found some of the reviews a bit hillarious. The "losses" seemed to be inconsistent, and just pure whim of the reviewing journalist.

Reading through this thread, it made me think the M4 is sort of in a different category/league now. I feel it's much more of a luxury sport coupe, than a sport luxury coupe. E30, E36, E46 were much more 'raw', but if you look at those non-M cars of the same chassis, they were also less 'refined' than E90's and F30's. The biggest limiting factor, IMHO, is the platform. The have to work with the existing chassis platform. I wonder what would happen if BMW started from scratch, put the engine in back, had unlimited R&D budget, and had to build a better and cheaper alternative to the 911. In the real world today, BMW's taken a pretty refined platform, F3X, made it more upscale (just the feel of the leather, even), and maximized it's sporty-ness. Is it a little numb, lacking in connection and feel, not able to come out of an apex as stable, etc compared to a 911? Of course, but the 991 chassis is so different from the F3X. Also, I do think we are approaching the limits of power and handling on a rear wheel drive car. To make it (significantly) faster and handle (significantly) better, we would likely need a platform change.

IMHO, the M4's only direct competitors are the Benz, Audi, Lexus, and maybe the Caddy. And with a level playing field, the BMW has won hands down, so far (objectively). BMW is still setting the trend, and others seem to follow. Take, for example, the emphasis on lighter weight. I don't remember seeing a competitor develop weight savings on their next generation car and use it as a selling point. Every C63, RS5, RCF have gotten heavier.

At the risk of sounding TOO much like a fanboi (but this IS an M4 forum, after all), I, for one, welcome the refinements of the M4. When considering what the M4 offers as a package, I still think it's pretty hard to beat, and there aren't really many alternatives at the moment. The competition has definitely caught up in many aspects, but I think once more real comparisons are made, and people have gotten adjusted to the turbo and torque, the M4 will still be a benchmark; it's just that the margins of victory may not be as wide as in the past.
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      12-10-2014, 05:04 PM   #39
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A monumental waste of time by some, maybe the most productive thing you did that day by others. I found some of the reviews a bit hillarious. The "losses" seemed to be inconsistent, and just pure whim of the reviewing journalist.
Count me firmly in the first category!

Quote:
Reading through this thread, it made me think the M4 is sort of in a different category/league now. I feel it's much more of a luxury sport coupe, than a sport luxury coupe.
All the Monty Python nerds can insert 'People's Front of Judeah' vs 'Judean People's Front' jokes here.....

Quote:
E30, E36, E46 were much more 'raw', but if you look at those non-M cars of the same chassis, they were also less 'refined' than E90's and F30's. The biggest limiting factor, IMHO, is the platform. The have to work with the existing chassis platform. I wonder what would happen if BMW started from scratch, put the engine in back, had unlimited R&D budget, and had to build a better and cheaper alternative to the 911. In the real world today, BMW's taken a pretty refined platform, F3X, made it more upscale (just the feel of the leather, even), and maximized it's sporty-ness. Is it a little numb, lacking in connection and feel, not able to come out of an apex as stable, etc compared to a 911? Of course, but the 991 chassis is so different from the F3X. Also, I do think we are approaching the limits of power and handling on a rear wheel drive car. To make it (significantly) faster and handle (significantly) better, we would likely need a platform change.
Actually, this really is an excellent point. Whereas folks like Sutcliffe clamored for something just like the E46 when this car was being developed, by absolute necessity that wasn't going to happen. This car was going to be larger because the F30 is much larger than the E46 3 series. To make a true 911/Cayman competitor, BMW would have to start from scratch - in which case it wouldn't be an M3 anymore, it would be something more like the "M Coupe" of years past....

Once you have that initial size/platform, there are limits on what you can do....

Quote:
IMHO, the M4's only direct competitors are the Benz, Audi, Lexus, and maybe the Caddy. And with a level playing field, the BMW has won hands down, so far (objectively). BMW is still setting the trend, and others seem to follow. Take, for example, the emphasis on lighter weight. I don't remember seeing a competitor develop weight savings on their next generation car and use it as a selling point. Every C63, RS5, RCF have gotten heavier.
The W205 C63 is supposed to be lighter, but nobody knows how much yet. The specs on the website indicate it will still be quite a bit porkier than the M3, but maybe less chubby than the W204. But, otherwise, yes, the hard core drive to lighten components does seem to have been much more the M focus this time around.

Quote:
At the risk of sounding TOO much like a fanboi (but this IS an M4 forum, after all), I, for one, welcome the refinements of the M4. When considering what the M4 offers as a package, I still think it's pretty hard to beat, and there aren't really many alternatives at the moment. The competition has definitely caught up in many aspects, but I think once more real comparisons are made, and people have gotten adjusted to the turbo and torque, the M4 will still be a benchmark; it's just that the margins of victory may not be as wide as in the past.
mmmmHmmm. Preach it!
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      12-10-2014, 05:05 PM   #40
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That seems to be the opposite of what is happening, though and, at least to my mind, logically the wrong direction.

In the 'hypercar' world, the P1 and 918 only have V8s (which, with their performance numbers is staggering).

In cars less beyond the mortal stratosphere, the i8 has a 1.5L inline 3 cylinder engine.

As electric motors are more efficient and powerful, less petrol 'boost' is required. Ultimately, we may do away with them altogether (see Tesla, passim.) If not, at the very least they end up taking a back seat to the tradition internal combustion.
any major car company right now could pull together a ton of money and resources and make a car like Tesla. (most are probably already doing it) Its not like they have some automotive secret.

Its going to take years and years for people to want full out electric engines for sports cars. which is why i feel they are going to give us electric/gas engine for years and years before full out electric.

one of the problems with electric engines is NOT the power. Its the fact people who care about cars would rather have a combustion engine. for many different reasons.

chevy is already taking about next gen corvette becoming electric and gas V8. point being they cant just all of a sudden lose the signature V8 engine. they need to phase it out over years.
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      12-10-2014, 05:11 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by RocketBoots View Post
IMHO, the M4's only direct competitors are the Benz, Audi, Lexus, and maybe the Caddy. And with a level playing field, the BMW has won hands down, so far (objectively). BMW is still setting the trend, and others seem to follow. Take, for example, the emphasis on lighter weight. I don't remember seeing a competitor develop weight savings on their next generation car and use it as a selling point. Every C63, RS5, RCF have gotten heavier.

At the risk of sounding TOO much like a fanboi
You sort of do sound like a fanboi. Your posts ignores addressing the F8x vs its next gen competition. The next gen C63 and Audi B9 are absolutely focused on weight savings just as much as BMW
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      12-10-2014, 05:16 PM   #42
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any major car company right now could pull together a ton of money and resources and make a car like Tesla. (most are probably already doing it) Its not like they have some automotive secret.

Its going to take years and years for people to want full out electric engines for sports cars. which is why i feel they are going to give us electric/gas engine for years and years before full out electric.

one of the problems with electric engines is NOT the power. Its the fact people who care about cars would rather have a combustion engine. for many different reasons.
I'm not sure that is correct. They can do it, but it is monumentally expensive and probably a money loser and not yet something they can do on a mass scale. Tesla is still losing money/maybe squeaking out small profits depending on how you do the accounting (GAAP loss, non-GAAP profit) - right now, they are building market share for the eventual profits they expect to realize. Other car cos don't work like that because their investors are not putting money into startups where they expect a long period before profits. BMW's shareholders want profits now, as to VW, etc. Blue chip vs. startup.

To my knowledge, the only company that has a profitable, mass made sporty electric car is BMW with the i8....which has a tiny little inline 3. The world is changing, and quickly. 10 years ago? No electric cars. Then a few Priuses. Then some half-assed hybrids that really weren't that efficient. Then some bad/flops of EVs (from the Gee Whiz to the Volt to the Fisker). Now? They are suddenly getting traction. I have perhaps seen one Fisker on the streets. I've seen several Teslas, and we don't even have a proper dealership/power network here. In trips to places that do, I've seen lots.

The move from Gee Whiz to i8 has been fast and it is here to stay. It may be that internal combustion always has some place, but all technologies are replaced at some time or other and the dominance of that motor may well be moving along.....
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      12-10-2014, 05:37 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
I'm not sure that is correct. They can do it, but it is monumentally expensive and probably a money loser and not yet something they can do on a mass scale. Tesla is still losing money/maybe squeaking out small profits depending on how you do the accounting (GAAP loss, non-GAAP profit) - right now, they are building market share for the eventual profits they expect to realize. Other car cos don't work like that because their investors are not putting money into startups where they expect a long period before profits. BMW's shareholders want profits now, as to VW, etc. Blue chip vs. startup.

To my knowledge, the only company that has a profitable, mass made sporty electric car is BMW with the i8....which has a tiny little inline 3. The world is changing, and quickly. 10 years ago? No electric cars. Then a few Priuses. Then some half-assed hybrids that really weren't that efficient. Then some bad/flops of EVs (from the Gee Whiz to the Volt to the Fisker). Now? They are suddenly getting traction. I have perhaps seen one Fisker on the streets. I've seen several Teslas, and we don't even have a proper dealership/power network here. In trips to places that do, I've seen lots.

The move from Gee Whiz to i8 has been fast and it is here to stay. It may be that internal combustion always has some place, but all technologies are replaced at some time or other and the dominance of that motor may well be moving along.....
The i8 in my eyes is a hybrid not an all electric car. It's a sporty prius as opposed to a sporty Tesla (i actually mean this as a compliment). I think that's one of the most misunderstood things about the i8. You can put gas in it. You can't put gas in a Tesla.

Electric cars problems exist less with demand / desire from consumers and more from limitations due to lack of infrastructure to support it which hybrids (i8 or prius) do not have
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      12-10-2014, 05:45 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by trinim3 View Post
You sort of do sound like a fanboi. Your posts ignores addressing the F8x vs its next gen competition. The next gen C63 and Audi B9 are absolutely focused on weight savings just as much as BMW
Yeah, reading over my post, I do. I'm usually not.

But the fact remains, BMW did beat the Benz and Audi to the market in terms of weight savings; whether that means they were leading the way... well, it's not like weight savings is a novel idea (the world of race cars).
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