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      01-18-2020, 11:51 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
As I mentioned in my original post, lower cost of production and higher MSRP.
I don't see how that can be. Auto manufacturers need to develop the new technology and re-tool their facilities. Any revolution in product technology requires massive investments. That's why auto manufacturers have been pushing back on EV technology for so long, to maximize their current investments. If it were not for the governments, EV development would be even further behind.
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      01-18-2020, 11:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
As I mentioned in my original post, lower cost of production and higher MSRP.
I don't see how that can be. Auto manufacturers need to develop the new technology and re-tool their facilities. Any revolution in product technology requires massive investments. That's why auto manufacturers have been pushing back on EV technology for so long, to maximize their current investments. If it were not for the governments, EV development would be even further behind.
R&D is different than production cost. Of course there are massive R&D investments in the beginning. There are many articles about EVs ultimately being cheaper to produce mainly because the drivetrain is simpler.
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      01-18-2020, 11:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by S4toM3 View Post
Generally speaking, I do agree with ///M4ster Yoda that it will be decades before EV's truly make ICE vehicles obsolete. However, I think we are just ~5 years away from EV's taking the majority of cars on the road.

Hell, here in Boulder, CO EV's already seem to account for 50%+ of vehicles out and about on a daily basis. Almost all of those are Model 3's. They've become more common around here than Subaru Outbacks. And I'm not even exaggerating.
Perhaps in major metro areas, but not gonna happen anywhere rural. Not too mention, it's just way too big of a hassle for road trips that are longer than the range. Most people who can afford it would simply just use the EV around town and keep an ICE vehicle for road trips. I'm definitely not anti-ev, it's great tech. But it's not the end be all automotive product, has pros and cons just like every other car.
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      01-18-2020, 12:08 PM   #26
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Haven't driven a Tesla but would love to and have numerous offers by numerous coworkders... just need to do it.

That said, I can't see how the power is going to fullfill me given that the power is directly coupled to road speed. The power hits hard, early (slow) and then falls rapidly as speed climbs. This is the result of not having a transmission with gears, which allows you to experience any portion of the motor's powerband at any speed by simply selecting different gears.

I just don't see how a single speed electric car is going to provide A) the high speed pulling power and B) the mechanical feedback I want. How can a sports car be fun without motor/driveline feedback?

I could, of course, be totally talking out my ass. But we'll see. My gut says that the M3P is a fun street car but won't satisfy, after some time, like a BMW M3.
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      01-18-2020, 12:15 PM   #27
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It literally looks like dog sh!t. Thereís absolutely no driving experience associated with this thing. Not a sound, smell of the gasoline(for those running dpís), and the feel of the clutch grabbing each gear. For those owners who brag abt the 0-60 times, big deal. Rides inside Disney accelerate that quick too.
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      01-18-2020, 12:34 PM   #28
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OP - good feedback. I keep looking at Model 3s when I see them, wondering if I could look at it and love it like I do my M3. I always come back with the same answer. I couldnít. Per many others, I think the front looks beyond goofy. I need to like to look at my car. Call me superficial. With cars I am.
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      01-18-2020, 12:57 PM   #29
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OP - good feedback. I keep looking at Model 3s when I see them, wondering if I could look at it and love it like I do my M3. I always come back with the same answer. I couldn’t. Per many others, I think the front looks beyond goofy. I need to like to look at my car. Call me superficial. With cars I am.
Anyone who calls you superficial because you want to like the look of your car is trying to justify driving an ugly ass car themselves.
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      01-18-2020, 01:06 PM   #30
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I had the opportunity for an extended 3-day test drive of a Model 3 Performance last summer and the acceleration and tech were incredible. The acceleration is ridiculously addictive. I don't see how that could ever get old! The handling was also impressive for what it was. But at the end of the day (and as others have mentioned), the quality control, build materials, paint, gaps, all were just very disappointing. I look forward to what our German friends will eventually bring to the table (hopefully sooner rather than later, but given their ICE culture, I'm worried it will be the latter), but for some reason I highly doubt they will match Tesla's acceleration numbers without charging an arm and a leg
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      01-18-2020, 01:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
I just don't see how a single speed electric car is going to provide A) the high speed pulling power and B) the mechanical feedback I want. How can a sports car be fun without motor/driveline feedback?
Take your friends up on the offer - it's a completely different experience.

Ride as a passenger when you aren't expecting the rush - and then make sure that you drive so that you can see how instantaneous the 'throttle' is. People are taking these out on the track and pushing them hard - check out Unplugged Performance's Tesla Corsa.

I agree with others about the build quality - it's more of a $30k car with a $20k battery. The M3/M4 isn't necessarily luxurious (vs the 5) but I would put the Tesla is closer to a 1/2er. The single screen captures attention as being odd - but it really works in day to day driving (touch screen tablet is easier than navigating through iDrive menus).

I love mine (only a LR RWD), but also kept the M
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      01-18-2020, 01:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by S4toM3 View Post
Generally speaking, I do agree with ///M4ster Yoda that it will be decades before EV's truly make ICE vehicles obsolete. However, I think we are just ~5 years away from EV's taking the majority of cars on the road.

Hell, here in Boulder, CO EV's already seem to account for 50%+ of vehicles out and about on a daily basis. Almost all of those are Model 3's. They've become more common around here than Subaru Outbacks. And I'm not even exaggerating.
Perhaps in major metro areas, but not gonna happen anywhere rural. Not too mention, it's just way too big of a hassle for road trips that are longer than the range. Most people who can afford it would simply just use the EV around town and keep an ICE vehicle for road trips. I'm definitely not anti-ev, it's great tech. But it's not the end be all automotive product, has pros and cons just like every other car.
Yup. I just drove back and forth from NY to Florida on I-95. Saw maybe 10 Tesla's going down and 4 coming back to NY. No exaggeration.

The majority of Tesla's are in Cali. And other urban areas. The rest of the US wants NOTHING to do with electric cars. They want huge F350s.

Colorado is California East at this stage in the game

It will take decades for the masses (in the US) to "adopt" EVs on a large scale.
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      01-18-2020, 01:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
How was the interior? Remind you of a Kia? Did you enjoy the fart noises?

It's a toaster that goes fast to 60 mph then dies out
How was the exterior? Looked like a cheap Chevy??
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      01-18-2020, 01:34 PM   #34
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I just don't like the exterior and interior on the M3P even though it is stupid quick.

The Tesla X SUV looks decent though and the gull wings were cool on that. Could be ok on long trips but you have to plan your supercharger stops and eat and piss there while you wait and watch Netflix in your vehicle.
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      01-18-2020, 01:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricSMG View Post
Haven't driven a Tesla but would love to and have numerous offers by numerous coworkders... just need to do it.

That said, I can't see how the power is going to fullfill me given that the power is directly coupled to road speed. The power hits hard, early (slow) and then falls rapidly as speed climbs. This is the result of not having a transmission with gears, which allows you to experience any portion of the motor's powerband at any speed by simply selecting different gears.

I just don't see how a single speed electric car is going to provide A) the high speed pulling power and B) the mechanical feedback I want. How can a sports car be fun without motor/driveline feedback?

I could, of course, be totally talking out my ass. But we'll see. My gut says that the M3P is a fun street car but won't satisfy, after some time, like a BMW M3.
Porsche solved that by putting 2-gears on the Taycan
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      01-18-2020, 02:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Yup. I just drove back and forth from NY to Florida on I-95. Saw maybe 10 Tesla's going down and 4 coming back to NY. No exaggeration.

The majority of Tesla's are in Cali. And other urban areas. The rest of the US wants NOTHING to do with electric cars. They want huge F350s.

Colorado is California East at this stage in the game

It will take decades for the masses (in the US) to "adopt" EVs on a large scale.
Not just the US. There are massive expanses of land all over the world that there's simply no way one could justify the cost of putting charging stations at every corner. There's simply not enough volume. Metro areas, sure, but the percentage of land occupied by metro areas is minuscule compared to rural areas around the world.

I'm also not convinced in the economics of it. Sure it's easier to "steal" electricity to charge EVs than it is to steal gas, but realistically, operating an EV is hardly cost-free. Privatization of charging stations will surely drive up prices, and as demand goes up for charging stations and down for gas stations, fueling costs will no longer be a determining factor. Incentives are disappearing, so there's also that.

That all said, I think an EV could work for me as a daily driver in the same way any "toaster" would. Maybe something cheap that I'd be ok parking anywhere and driving it until the wheels fell off. The Model 3 could serve that purpose, it's so ugly that I couldn't care less if it gets scratched up or door dinged. Problem is that it's just WAY too much money to pay for a toaster.

Autonomous? No thanks. I'm not so fucking lazy that I can't drive my self around, not to mention that it promotes bad (ie potentially fatal) driving habits in a populace that already has trouble paying attention behind the wheel.
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      01-18-2020, 02:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by swagon View Post
I would not mind a small EV for running around the city, something like an i3S or e-Golf, but still want to row my own gears in an ICE car. Makes an otherwise mundane drive a bit more special to me.
+1

I started out my EV journey in Chevy Spark EV that I got lightly used. Turns out 327ftlb of torque from 0rpm is super amazing for public roads and I ended up moving to Tesla model 3P.

My Porsche stays on a trickle charger most of the time they days since I like the EV so much. Very surprised. Didnít think Iíd like them so much.

Edit: there is a 1000 comment thread in vs section on this topic
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      01-18-2020, 04:16 PM   #38
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Funny timing of a video posted today by carwow, comparing the Model3P vs new Porsche 911 in straight line performance. For those saying the Model 3P is only good for 0-60, this video seems to disagree...




And, for the record, I'm in no way saying I'd take a 3P over a 911. Just thought the video was perfectly timed for this convo. Fast forward to 4:45 for the start of rolling races.
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      01-18-2020, 04:30 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noone View Post
I just don't like the exterior and interior on the M3P even though it is stupid quick.

The Tesla X SUV looks decent though and the gull wings were cool on that. Could be ok on long trips but you have to plan your supercharger stops and eat and piss there while you wait and watch Netflix in your vehicle.
Gull wings are cool to a 12 year old
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      01-18-2020, 04:34 PM   #40
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Anyone who calls you superficial because you want to like the look of your car is trying to justify driving an ugly ass car themselves.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, and life is too short to drive an ugly car. If I owned a model 3, I would not look back at it after parking.
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      01-18-2020, 04:36 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4_Johnnys View Post
After getting back in my car at the end of the day, I felt almost dishevelled, I'm sure on the race track my M4 will exhibit better handling due to less weight and better suspension geometry. But on the road, the Tesla Model 3 performance was insane.

The way it accelerated, the way it put the power down in the corners, was absurd, laughable. It changed directions extremely well, and with all that weight down low there was hardly any body roll. It had a softer more compliant ride than the M4, but with less body roll.

I love my M4 though, maybe a full electric conversion is on the cards
But it's so damn ugly.

On the performance, this is something I've thought a lot about.

Yes, they are wicked fast - especially the dual motor. But that's also because the onboard computers do pretty much everything for you; eg. adjust output to each wheel based on slippage and maximize the power getting down to the ground...and with AWD.

Not sure if it's even possible, but could one turn all that software "off" and let someone try to tame a Model 3 without the "nanny" factor?

Would be curious to see how that scenario would match up with one of our cars...could see a lot of completely liquefied tires with the instant torque EV's deliver and having to manually handle it
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      01-18-2020, 06:15 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4toM3 View Post
Funny timing of a video posted today by carwow, comparing the Model3P vs new Porsche 911 in straight line performance. For those saying the Model 3P is only good for 0-60, this video seems to disagree...




And, for the record, I'm in no way saying I'd take a 3P over a 911. Just thought the video was perfectly timed for this convo. Fast forward to 4:45 for the start of rolling races.
I love Carwow but their drag race videos are getting pretty dumb. If it's a drag race and it involves a Tesla, we know it's going to win, it's not a surprise anymore.
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      01-18-2020, 06:25 PM   #43
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I love Carwow but their drag race videos are getting pretty dumb. If it's a drag race and it involves a Tesla, we know it's going to win, it's not a surprise anymore.
Right, but what this one did show is that from 50 - 130mph, it's still very fast. Negating what others are saying about it falling flat after it hits that 60MPH mark.

Regardless, at the price point, the 3P is just missing too much to be worthwhile, in my opinion.
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      01-18-2020, 07:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by S4toM3 View Post
Right, but what this one did show is that from 50 - 130mph, it's still very fast. Negating what others are saying about it falling flat after it hits that 60MPH mark.

Regardless, at the price point, the 3P is just missing too much to be worthwhile, in my opinion.
these rolls tests are skewed. They start the ICE car in top gear rather than the right gear for a roll test. If the porsche was in the right gear then guaranteed the tesla would be bus lengths behind.

A stock RS5 pulled the model 3 from a roll when it was in the right gear. fast forward to 4:10

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