Has VW been caught manipulating press?

[stealth.pilot]

I have long suspected the media's bias towards Audi over BMW has been rigged.

Reading this latest news about The ADAC inflating the vote for Golf as car of the year by almost 10X raises suspicions.

While there is no evidence yet that VW instigated this, one wonders why a journalist would place his career at risk just for a love of the VW Golf. I suspect there were incentives from VW involved if not cash than non monetary incentives.

http://m.autoblog.com/2014/02/01/ada..._river_article

[B-1Pilot]

What's weird is that I have been seeing Audi a lot in press recently... For some reason the hipsters over at Jalopnik seem to be infatuated with old M and but new Audi, and I just don't get it. Seeing a lot of the threads here lately; thinking i am objective on cars but wanting to be sure, I've spent some serious time recently in the big 4 German dealerships...

Porsche continues to astound... They know it, you know it, their commercial from years ago remains spot on: http://<div class="youtube-playerCon.../iframe></div>.
I got some good p-car time in today and it was a blast. I will upgrade one day.

BMW continues to be my wheelhouse.... Everything is where I expect it, it drives like I expect it, and while it doing it, I feel I am faster, smoother, and more comfortable than anyone on the road. The disconnected feel people talk about truly exists... But it's not a bad thing. The BMW balances performance, luxury, and comfort so well, that it doesn't have the visceral, loud, loose feeling that most people associate with performance -- this this leads people to falsely understate the BMW capabilities, and at the same time be shocked when they are going faster than they expected.

Mercedes has amazing offerings, but their dealerships seems to reek of old age and arrogance... I'm not trying to be offensive, but even as a middle-aged guy who can buy anything off their lot, i still feel out of place. My two interactions with the latest AMG offerings has been a bit disappointing - I guess I have to step up to the rarified air of SL and SLS to get their best and have it resound with me.

Audi, however, is the most disappointing... I mean I just don't get them as a brand. I thought for sure after making the R8. We would see this amazing shift, but it doesn't see to be there... R8 and A5 are about all I would buy from them. A friend just brought his brand new A6 by... Got to spend a lot of time with the car... Looks are pretty good, the tech inside is actually quite good and others should take a lesson, but fit and finish was abysmal. A supercharged v6 in this day and age of responsive forced induction? My friend stated that he felt it was far superior to a loaded 5 series--- my response was that if he was happy, I was happy for him-- but the car looked more like. Volkswagen than anything else. I haven't fully gotten into this year's S/RS cars, and I will drive them shortly when Dallas dealers get stock. However, up till now I still don't get them at their price.

[wisesoul]

Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot

What's weird is that I have been seeing Audi a lot in press recently... For some reason the hipsters over at Jalopnik seem to be infatuated with old M and but new Audi, and I just don't get it. Seeing a lot of the threads here lately; thinking i am objective on cars but wanting to be sure, I've spent some serious time recently in the big 4 German dealerships...

Porsche continues to astound... They know it, you know it, their commercial from years ago remains spot on: http://<div class="youtube-playerCon.../iframe></div>.
I got some good p-car time in today and it was a blast. I will upgrade one day.

BMW continues to be my wheelhouse.... Everything is where I expect it, it drives like I expect it, and while it doing it, I feel I am faster, smoother, and more comfortable than anyone on the road. The disconnected feel people talk about truly exists... But it's not a bad thing. The BMW balances performance, luxury, and comfort so well, that it doesn't have the visceral, loud, loose feeling that most people associate with performance -- this this leads people to falsely understate the BMW capabilities, and at the same time be shocked when they are going faster than they expected.

Mercedes has amazing offerings, but their dealerships seems to reek of old age and arrogance... I'm not trying to be offensive, but even as a middle-aged guy who can buy anything off their lot, i still feel out of place. My two interactions with the latest AMG offerings has been a bit disappointing - I guess I have to step up to the rarified air of SL and SLS to get their best and have it resound with me.

Audi, however, is the most disappointing... I mean I just don't get them as a brand. I thought for sure after making the R8. We would see this amazing shift, but it doesn't see to be there... R8 and A5 are about all I would buy from them. A friend just brought his brand new S6 by... Got to spend a lot of time with the car... Looks are pretty good, the tech inside is actually quite good and others should take a lesson, but fit and finish was abysmal. A supercharged v6 in this day and age of responsive forced induction? My grind stated that he felt it was far superior to a loaded 5 series--- my response was that if he was happy, I was happy for him-- but the car looked more like. Volkswagen than anything else. I haven't fully gotten into this years RS cars, and I will drive them shortly when Dallas dealers get stock. However, up till now I still don't get them at their price.

Wasn't an S6, it was either an S4 or A6 3.0TFSI. The S6 has a 4.0 TTV8.

[Dionysus]

Great find stealth; thanks for posting.

Let's face it, if were talking anti-bribery and corruption policies and laws, social acceptance is still at a level where there are some 'soft-thresholds'.

VW group have got themselves into any interesting place. Platform & component sharing to reduce costs has resulted in some excellent cars at all price points, but lets face it, how many of us would actually buy a Skoda (vRS for us petrol heads), even though the 'fill up with fuel to double it's value' and 'heated rear screen for pushing it' jokes are fading into a distant memory? And although VW are trying hard to engineer some character into their various brands, IMO, the result is just constraining those brands to produce cars with avoidable flaws. Gone are the days when a Skoda and an Audi were worlds apart. All that's left now is the challenge for manufacturers to sell 'USPs' for products which aren't all that different, so the story above is not all that surprising.

Admittedly BMW also now has some platform sharing compromises (think 5, 7, RR Ghost), i.e. loss of 'feel' in trade for refinement in the F10, even though clearly the capability, such as ride/handling compromise, has moved on from similar sized cars from the past, say E38. Then there's the need to offer platform-sharing niche products (GTs, GCs, everything Mini that isn't a 3dr hatch), just in effort to retain customer base.

The problem here, I believe, is too much choice and, as a manufacturer, how to market your product as better than the competition, even if it's internal...

[Hoopumpers]

I agree with your platform sharing concerns. Just wait for 35up

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Hoopumpers

I agree with your platform sharing concerns. Just wait for 35up

This.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by wisesoul

Wasn't an S6, it was either an S4 or A6 3.0TFSI. The S6 has a 4.0 TTV8.

Yep correct, I meant A6... my typo; I loathe typing on my iOs devices -- i go too fast, and don't proofread. Corrected now.

His inference was that an A6 was better than a 5 series so an S6/RS7 would/could be better than an M5.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Hoopumpers

I agree with your platform sharing concerns. Just wait for 35up

At least Porsche have not yet completely sold out. Cayenne (and possibly Mecan) is genuinely better engineered than it's sister car, but Porsche make sure they charge you for their engineering consultancy!

Here's hoping VW do not mess with the 911, Cayman & Boxster any time soon...

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

At least Porsche have not yet completely sold out. Cayenne (and possibly Mecan) is genuinely better engineered than it's sister car, but Porsche make sure they charge you for their engineering consultancy!

Here's hoping VW do not mess with the 911, Cayman & Boxster any time soon...

The roadmap is going in that direction though.

911 will be only Porsche developed platform going forward and they may share that with Lamborghini while getting access to the Huracan/R8 platform for a new super car above the 911.

Roadmap for Porsche platforms looks to borrow from Audi for future models
Cayman/Boxster/TT
A6/Panamera Junior(Pajun)
A8/Panamera
Tiguan/Q5/Macan (already sharing)
Toureg/Q7/Cayenne (already sharing)

[dhirm5]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

I have long suspected the media's bias towards Audi over BMW has been rigged.

Reading this latest news about The ADAC inflating the vote for Golf as car of the year by almost 10X raises suspicions.

While there is no evidence yet that VW instigated this, one wonders why a journalist would place his career at risk just for a love of the VW Golf. I suspect there were incentives from VW involved if not cash than non monetary incentives.

http://m.autoblog.com/2014/02/01/ada..._river_article

I have held the same belief about an incentivized media bias in favor of Audi for a few years now.

This may or may not be related to the same, but I'm glad to see a spotlight may be moving in that direction.

[avlnch]

Now VW and Ferrari have something in common.

[ACE_M3]

1. There is no evidence VW paid anybody at ADAC. Your suspicions are just based on your own biases.
2. There is no evidence that the Golf didn't win the vote, only that the numbers were inflated. Multiple news sources have quoted that the Golf had the most legitimate votes anyway.
3. Just because your favorite car/ brand wasn't preferred by some journalist that doesn't mean the journalist was bribed. Different people like different cars, get over it, instead of making up unsubstantiated conspiracy theories .

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by ACE_M3

1. There is no evidence VW paid anybody at ADAC. Your suspicions are just based on your own biases.
2. There is no evidence that the Golf didn't win the vote, only that the numbers were inflated. Multiple news sources have quoted that the Golf had the most legitimate votes anyway.
3. Just because your favorite car/ brand wasn't preferred by some journalist that doesn't mean the journalist was bribed. Different people like different cars, get over it, instead of making up unsubstantiated conspiracy theories .

I doubt you even own an M5. I doubt any M5 owner would make such an offensive comment to one of their peers on this board.

[Spinny02]

High ranking officials resigning is pretty good evidence that something happened that should not have.

"Deloitte found evidence of “willful manipulation”"

Originally Posted by ACE_M3

1. There is no evidence VW paid anybody at ADAC. Your suspicions are just based on your own biases.
2. There is no evidence that the Golf didn't win the vote, only that the numbers were inflated. Multiple news sources have quoted that the Golf had the most legitimate votes anyway.
3. Just because your favorite car/ brand wasn't preferred by some journalist that doesn't mean the journalist was bribed. Different people like different cars, get over it, instead of making up unsubstantiated conspiracy theories .

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by ACE_M3

1. There is no evidence VW paid anybody at ADAC. Your suspicions are just based on your own biases.
2. There is no evidence that the Golf didn't win the vote, only that the numbers were inflated. Multiple news sources have quoted that the Golf had the most legitimate votes anyway.
3. Just because your favorite car/ brand wasn't preferred by some journalist that doesn't mean the journalist was bribed. Different people like different cars, get over it, instead of making up unsubstantiated conspiracy theories .

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

I doubt you even own an M5. I doubt any M5 owner would make such an offensive comment to one of their peers on this board.

Originally Posted by Spinny02

High ranking officials resigning is pretty good evidence that something happened that should not have.

It has emerged that the BMW 3-series actually came 2nd in the real votes, but wasn't even on the list in the "official" votes...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A191I020140210

BMW's 3-series car, for instance, should have been in second place behind the Volkswagen Golf based on votes submitted, but inexplicably did not even make it into the top five. The BMW's 5-series was instead inserted in fifth place.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/526351

Yet, while Golf correctly won the award, the Audi A3 was wrongly placed as No. 2 and the Mercedes-Benz A class was wrongly named No. 3.

The German carmakers are now returning their awards to ADAC:

http://www.inautonews.com/germany-ca...s#.UwCSPp3KyM8


One thing is to boost the vote numbers in order to make your organization look bigger and more important and to get more weight behind the award. It's even more serious when you also change the order of the awards. Why would a independent organization place the Audi in 2nd and a Mercedes in 3rd and completely remove the BMW 3-series from the list? Especially when the 3-series actually came in 2nd!

Perhaps someone had benefits by doing that?

[ACE_M3]

I agree that the results were manipulated by ADAC employees. That is obvious from the reports and resignations.

Suggesting that ADAC or its employees were paid by VW to manipulate the results is unsubstantiated speculation at this stage. Further suggesting that VW has been paying many magazines worldwide to be placed ahead of BMW is (more fanciful) unsubstantiated speculation.

So the answer to the question "Has VW been caught manipulating press?" is NO. Unless you have evidence (not speculation) to the contrary that you would like to post here.

PS. Stealth Pilot, how would you know what I do and don't own? Are you using the same crystal ball that told you that VW have been bribing people? You seem to like making assumptions without sufficient evidence.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by ACE_M3

PS. Stealth Pilot, how would you know what I do and don't own? Are you using the same crystal ball that told you that VW have been bribing people? You seem to like making assumptions without sufficient evidence.

I am not making conclusions, I am raising suspicions. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem and are not recognizing the difference. You are treating this as a direct accusation of VW and not a mocking gun as almost everyone else on this board recognizes it to be.

1) There is evidence well detailed by @dionysus that warrants our being suspicious of VW. They were the beneficiary here. Especially since one of their cars replaced a BMW in second place in the vote, and the BMW disappeared from the vote. Clearly VW benefited at the expense of BMW. In addition, while there is no evidence VW bribed anyone, one does wonder why an employee of ADAC would risk his job to promote a VW product. If you don't wonder about that question and whether VW influenced it then you clearly give more benefit of doubt than most.

2) I am also not accusing you of not owning an M5, I am doubting you own one. IN this case because of the following: You have come on here and started attacking me for sharing an opinion (i.e. doing the very activity that this board is here for people to do). I am an established member of this board (more than you) and a valued contributor (featured on the main page about half a dozen times). Yet you view protecting VWs reputation is more important then not pissing off people in the M5 online community. Again the question is why? Why are you so passionate about defending VW? What is your connection with them? Why does it not bother you that BMWs 3 series was removed from this vote without reason?

[ACE_M3]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

I am not making conclusions, I am raising suspicions. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem and are not recognizing the difference. You are treating this as a direct accusation of VW and not a mocking gun as almost everyone else on this board recognizes it to be.

1) There is evidence well detailed by @dionysus that warrants our being suspicious of VW. They were the beneficiary here. Especially since one of their cars replaced a BMW in second place in the vote, and the BMW disappeared from the vote. Clearly VW benefited at the expense of BMW. In addition, while there is no evidence VW bribed anyone, one does wonder why an employee of ADAC would risk his job to promote a VW product. If you don't wonder about that question and whether VW influenced it then you clearly give more benefit of doubt than most.

2) I am also not accusing you of not owning an M5, I am doubting you own one. IN this case because of the following: You have come on here and started attacking me for sharing an opinion (i.e. doing the very activity that this board is here for people to do). I am an established member of this board (more than you) and a valued contributor (featured on the main page about half a dozen times). Yet you view protecting VWs reputation is more important then not pissing off people in the M5 online community. Again the question is why? Why are you so passionate about defending VW? What is your connection with them? Why does it not bother you that BMWs 3 series was removed from this vote without reason?

How do you know what "almost everyone" on this board thinks? Using your crystal ball again?

1. From the reports that I read the VW Golf won on legitimate votes too. BMW didn't disappear from the vote, the 5 series was 5th. Corruption is unacceptable but so far the only evidence of corruption is at ADAC and I am obviously not disputing that.
2. Just for a minute I'll pretend you have some authorty around here; At what point are newer (I use this term loosely since I joined before you) people entitled to have an opinion on this board?
3. The ADAC allegations relate to several previous years as well. These are years in which BMW and Mercedes were top. Does your crystal ball know how this happened? Did BMW and Mercedes paid bigger bribes than VW in these years? Or are you not suspicious when BMW win?
4. I have an F10 M5 and I am not affiliated with VW in any way. I am not trying to protect VWs reputation, I couldn't give a rat's ass about VW or any other car manufacturer's reputation. I just want to see some evidence of your allegations. Otherwise you are just spreading unsubstantiated rumours and I am calling you out for doing so. Do you always accuse anyone whose opinion doesn't agree with yours of lies/corruption?

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Roadmap for Porsche platforms looks to borrow from Audi for future models
Cayman/Boxster/TT

i don't know where you got this from, but it's incorrect.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

There is evidence well detailed by @dionysus that warrants our being suspicious of VW

Don't believe I can take any credit for that (one of our other members is the informative one, I'm just opinionated )

The only opinions (which could be considered subjective) I had were on (a) the potential deficiencies around how individuals interpret anti-bribery and corruption policies and laws to determine what is considered acceptable or not (social acceptance could equally be applied to, for example, speed limits, but that's a whole new topic) and (b) the advantages and disadvantages of platform sharing, which I believe could be a contributing factor as to why this sort of behaviour exists.

Clearly something is awry in this story and some/many of us agree it's unacceptable; @ACE_M3, we could take it further and ask if any of us are in a position to conclude anything about ADAC or any of it's former employees (in a similar fashion to asserting VW or any other manufacturer, were/were not at fault) - that again could be considered another subjective opinion. Who's to say on what grounds the former ADAC employee actually resigned, and also on what terms?

We also have to consider that although the Golf was still placed first based on legitimate votes, increasing the number of votes or the margin by which it won is still in VW's favour...

[ACE_M3]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Don't believe I can take any credit for that (one of our other members is the informative one, I'm just opinionated )

The only opinions (which could be considered subjective) I had were on (a) the potential deficiencies around how individuals interpret anti-bribery and corruption policies and laws to determine what is considered acceptable or not (social acceptance could equally be applied to, for example, speed limits, but that's a whole new topic) and (b) the advantages and disadvantages of platform sharing, which I believe could be a contributing factor as to why this sort of behaviour exists.

Clearly something is awry in this story and some/many of us agree it's unacceptable; @ACE_M3, we could take it further and ask if any of us are in a position to conclude anything about ADAC or any of it's former employees (in a similar fashion to asserting VW or any other manufacturer, were/were not at fault) - that again could be considered another subjective opinion. Who's to say on what grounds the former ADAC employee actually resigned, and also on what terms?

We also have to consider that although the Golf was still placed first based on legitimate votes, increasing the number of votes or the margin by which it won is still in VW's favour...

Those are all very sensible points and I agree that on this occasion the margin of VW's victory may have been exaggerated. But that is hardly evidence that there is widespread bribery and corruption of magazine and poll results in favour of Audi/VW all over the world which is what the OP was insinuating.

Most of the major manufacturers give the major publications long term loan cars and loads of advertising revenue. You could easily make an argument that this influences what they publish but this not unique to VW.

Audi sells almost as many cars as BMW therefore it's obvious that some people (including journalists) prefer a specific Audi to the equivalent BMW without being bribed.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by ACE_M3

You could easily make an argument that this influences what they publish but this not unique to VW.

Absolutely - I don't really have anything more to add other than reiterating Boss330 penultimate comment above (regardless of which manufacturer is perceived to be at a loss this year).

Anyhow, talking of conspiracy theories & smoking guns, I've just got wind of a sasquatch sighting down the local woods. I need to gather my camera equipment and investigate. Now where did I put my big fake fur coat?