Ready for turbo upgrade...

[papasmurf_m3]

Originally Posted by LOW4LYF

There are still Turbos on the market without core for 50% less. Not trashing just trying to find out why?

Understood, try to think of it this way you bought a bmw right? You can get a Honda Accord or something else but you paid more for more better performance and better design etc. The same applies here. It's not all about who has the cheapest, all the time. Just my 2 cents buddy.

[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by AlphaPro_F80

Understood, try to think of it this way you bought a bmw right? You can get a Honda Accord or something else but you paid more for more better performance and better design etc. The same applies here. It's not all about who has the cheapest, all the time. Just my 2 cents buddy.

So the more expensive is always better in your eyes?

I would disagree on that.

You can get the VTT installed and a tune for less than others charging for hardware only.

Edit: BTW... I have my M4 because it is a cheap car compare to its competitors.

[Harpinc]

I want to see these cars at 650whp on 93 octane.🙄

[BzsBimmer]

A couple of you guys are redic. Nars has contributed more to this forum than either of you. I have been on here for quite some time and while I don’t know him, I’ve read his contributions.

I also believe a lot of what you desire can be had more honestly by calling a few experts in this arena.

You guys need to turn down your sensitivity meter.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by LOW4LYF

There are still Turbos on the market without core for 50% less. Not trashing just trying to find out why?

This is a reasonable question that many people ask and hopefully we can help shed some light on the subject.

Our turbos systems are engineered, designed, and manufactured from blank sheet. The complete turbo system is our own proprietary design with every component being individually engineered for the S55 only. This includes our Dual Ceramic BB CHRA Technology, 3rd Order Geometry Point Milled Compressor Wheels, Custom Turbine Wheels, Completely Re-Designed Exhaust Manifold With Mathematically Increased Runner Diameters and A/R Ratio, Titanium Bullet Nut, etc, all of which are currently under Patent Pending Status. Also, our exhaust manifolds are designed and tested in CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) to ensure smoother transitions and flow patterns to reduce Aerodynamic Tumble.

These are some of the key factors as to why the Strom Motorsports time attack and 25 Hour Endurance race cars perform so well without fail with our hardware, where journal bearing turbos have continuously failed them. It's also a proven fact that our Dual Ceramic BB technology can withstand significantly higher thrust loads than any journal bearing chra. Combine that with our larger rotor group and increased transient response, you have a turbo system that can perform with the responsiveness similar to that of a stock turbo and with the capability to produce more horsepower than any large single or large twin custom turbo system currently on the market for the S55.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by Harpinc

I want to see these cars at 650whp on 93 octane.🙄

Our KRAS55Bi produces 655whp on 93 pump with stock engine on our previous iteration compressor wheels last year as posted in this link with dyno graphs.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ghlight=kratos

[bracer]

I went with the Vargas turbos, but it was a tough decision between those and the Kratos turbos. The Kratos turbos are more expensive, but they do have some unique features. For me in the end there wasn't enough data running 91 and/or 93 without meth or E85 to make the extra leap in cost to Kratos, and they have no history yet good or bad. I'm sure at some point that data will be out there. For now I would put Kratos in the I'm going all out with a built motor and E85 camp (I know that's not where they put themselves, but it's my opinion), where VTT is great for straight pump gas and is good for E85, but will not make what Kratos does. We'll see what their GC+ does. All the hybrid versions out there have +/- as well, but all generally make more backpressure in the manifold, but are still great options. I would also look at spool characteristics. The VT spool very quickly, pure SG2 is somewhere in the middle and Kratos and Stage2+ are on the slower side (but make more up top).

[Bmwlmr99]

great info...this is the meat and potatoes info I need , thanks gentlemen

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by Bmwlmr99

great info...this is the meat and potatoes info I need , thanks gentlemen

[808elise]

Originally Posted by blackey

I went with the Vargas turbos, but it was a tough decision between those and the Kratos turbos. The Kratos turbos are more expensive, but they do have some unique features. For me in the end there wasn't enough data running 91 and/or 93 without meth or E85 to make the extra leap in cost to Kratos, and they have no history yet good or bad. I'm sure at some point that data will be out there. For now I would put Kratos in the I'm going all out with a built motor and E85 camp (I know that's not where they put themselves, but it's my opinion), where VTT is great for straight pump gas and is good for E85, but will not make what Kratos does. We'll see what their GC+ does. All the hybrid versions out there have +/- as well, but all generally make more backpressure in the manifold, but are still great options. I would also look at spool characteristics. The VT spool very quickly, pure SG2 is somewhere in the middle and Kratos and Stage2+ are on the slower side (but make more up top).

Finally!

BTW, thanks OP!

[tom @ eas]

blackey 's M3 showed some pretty impressive results with the VTT GC Turbos on the dyno:







More details in this thread: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1621761

[Harpinc]

Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS

Our KRAS55Bi produces 655whp on 93 pump with stock engine on our previous iteration compressor wheels last year as posted in this link with dyno graphs.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ghlight=kratos

Wasn't referring to cars with Kratos. Everyone and their mother has a 600whp car on Stg 2 Flash and pure turbos.. Not from what I've seen.

[808elise]

Originally Posted by blackey

I went with the Vargas turbos, but it was a tough decision between those and the Kratos turbos. The Kratos turbos are more expensive, but they do have some unique features. For me in the end there wasn't enough data running 91 and/or 93 without meth or E85 to make the extra leap in cost to Kratos, and they have no history yet good or bad. I'm sure at some point that data will be out there. For now I would put Kratos in the I'm going all out with a built motor and E85 camp (I know that's not where they put themselves, but it's my opinion), where VTT is great for straight pump gas and is good for E85, but will not make what Kratos does. We'll see what their GC+ does. All the hybrid versions out there have +/- as well, but all generally make more backpressure in the manifold, but are still great options. I would also look at spool characteristics. The VT spool very quickly, pure SG2 is somewhere in the middle and Kratos and Stage2+ are on the slower side (but make more up top).

Originally Posted by blackey

The VT spool very quickly, pure SG2 is somewhere in the middle and Kratos and Stage2+ are on the slower side (but make more up top).

How so? Dynos show kratos making power quicker on pump then your dyno on e85. Looks like more power throughout too. Watching vids seems like kratos revs very quickly. Alot more money but seems like a safer option aswell.

[bracer]

Kratos is spooling at about 5000rpm on e85, best I could tell? I don't think we have any pump gas dynos on their latest design at this point btw. Maybe you are seeing something different than I was. They definitely hold power up to better (this can also be fuel, but in this case I think the turbos flow better).

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by blackey

Kratos is spooling at about 5000rpm on e85, best I could tell? I don't think we have any pump gas dynos on their latest design at this point btw. Maybe you are seeing something different than I was. They definitely hold power up to better (this can also be fuel, but in this case I think the turbos flow better).

As far as our data shows compared to the dyno chart listed of your car in this thread, our KRAS55Bi's actually spool faster on both pump gas and E85 up to 4k rpm until we start limiting torque demand for connecting rod safety on stock engines.

Yes, these dyno graphs are of our previous iteration compressor wheels. However, our current production wheel spools identical to previous iteration with the exception of higher Adiabatic Efficiency. Not to mention the fact that our manifolds are proven reduced back pressure tested based on concrete data provided. One of the major factors of reduced back pressure is the linearity of power delivery to redline without drop off. To date, no production turbo system on the market for the S55 has proven this other than the KRAS55Bi.

[bracer]

Here are the two turbos overlaid on each other. Not sure the boost / timing Kratos was running. (Maybe he can chime in on that?) I think I asked for a log, but they didn't have one at the time? (as I said I almost pulled the trigger on the Kratos turbos.) I suspect I'm running a bit more boost than the Kratos was.

FYI - Mine is a very conservative tune as well, as that's what I asked for for road course work.

Also I think both are being held back due to stock engines / transmissions, so not sure really if it means anything as this is about the limit on pump gas (not E85) and stock internals.

At the risk of making the graph a mess, I added Cary's tune from 93 octane without spool limiting. (note - Not my car - This is from VTT's dyno)

Both look to be very good solutions.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by blackey

Here are the two turbos overlaid on each other. Not sure the boost / timing Kratos was running. (Maybe he can chime in on that?) I think I asked for a log, but they didn't have one at the time? (as I said I almost pulled the trigger on the Kratos turbos.) I suspect I'm running a bit more boost than the Kratos was.

FYI - Mine is a very conservative tune as well, as that's what I asked for for road course work.

Also I think both are being held back due to stock engines / transmissions, so not sure really if it means anything as this is about the limit on pump gas (not E85) and stock internals.

At the risk of making the graph a mess, I added Cary's tune from 93 octane without spool limiting. (note - Not my car - This is from VTT's dyno)

Both look to be very good solutions.

While we appreciate the effort to do the overlays and positive remarks about our turbo system, the question still remains as to how the KRAS55Bi's don't start spooling until 5K rpm as you stated?

We also want to point out 2 other things we noticed. First being the fact that your overlays are of our beta test car on pump gas 93 octane and yours on race gas, rather than our pump E85 dyno vs. yours on race gas to represent spool as both octanes are similar. Secondly, and most important is the fact that you stated your tune is spool limited when your log that was posted on your dyno results thread clearly shows 100% WGDC until almost 4k rpm.

So, the question then has to be asked that how is it the 93 octane pump results you plotted of your turbos on another car spooling so much faster than yours when yours is already at 100% WGDC and on race gas? We don't mean to be facetious with our remarks, however we do need to state the facts as they've been presented since a lot of mis-information is being spread about the spool characteristics of our KRAS55Bi Turbo Systems.

[bracer]

Sorry, not trying to mislead. Indeed I'm at 100 octane where the curve you provided is at 93 octane. Unfortunately our ACN91 is such crap it really can't be used to compare. VTT did do 93 testing here:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...=vtt+93+octane

This is where I pulled my 93 curve from to try and give apples to apples, or at least as close as we can. Also comparing E85 to even 100 octane really isn't a good comparison. The E85 will outperform it every time. It's higher octane, and the ethanol content will allow for more timing in and of itself. I'd also note all the curves you are showing come from Kratos, so also using curves that come from VTT is fair game until there is enough end user data to have the data stand on it's own.

I would also note there are other ways to slow spool besides opening the wastegates early.

I didn't mean to imply you don't start spooling until 5000. In many of your dynos though, you don't hit full boost until around 5000. Can you share a datalog on what boost and at what RPM the pump gas hits full boost, that would tell a lot.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by blackey

Sorry, not trying to mislead. Indeed I'm at 100 octane where the curve you provided is at 93 octane. Unfortunately our ACN91 is such crap it really can't be used to compare. VTT did do 93 testing here:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...=vtt+93+octane

This is where I pulled my 93 curve from to try and give apples to apples, or at least as close as we can. Also comparing E85 to even 100 octane really isn't a good comparison. The E85 will outperform it every time. It's higher octane, and the ethanol content will allow for more timing in and of itself. I'd also note all the curves you are showing come from Kratos, so also using curves that come from VTT is fair game until there is enough end user data to have the data stand on it's own.

I would also note there are other ways to slow spool besides opening the wastegates early.

I didn't mean to imply you don't start spooling until 5000. In many of your dynos though, you don't hit full boost until around 5000. Can you share a datalog on what boost and at what RPM the pump gas hits full boost, that would tell a lot.

We are aware that there are other measures to reduce spool or torque demand, one of them being throttle angle. Which for some strange reason that channel is missing from the log that was posted in your thread.

Could you please provide any proof or data of your claim that our dynos don't show boost coming in until 5K rpm? The illusion that our boost does not come in until 5K rpm may come from the simple fact that our dyno graphs ramp at a much more aggressive rate due to the 1100+whp figures that most are not used to seeing. At the end of the day it's just that an illusion, not fact.

As requested attached below is real factual data of a 3rd party customer's vehicle on a shelf stock Stage 2 93 octane pump gas file with our KRAS55Bi's installed. You can clearly see that the car is already at target boost of 24psi@3600rpm with 0 boost deviation at 96%WGDC (Not 100%) and not even at full throttle as the log shows throttle angle at 76%, not to mention the high IAT's due to their climate. Hopefully, this will put the issue of our KRAS55Bi's spool and boost response capabilities to rest as you can't get anymore concrete than this when it comes to proven factual data.

[Spun Pornhub]

Bmwlmr99 what's the latest on this project? Curious to know which turbo solution you ended up going with and why?

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by blackey

Here are the two turbos overlaid on each other. Not sure the boost / timing Kratos was running. (Maybe he can chime in on that?) I think I asked for a log, but they didn't have one at the time? (as I said I almost pulled the trigger on the Kratos turbos.) I suspect I'm running a bit more boost than the Kratos was.

FYI - Mine is a very conservative tune as well, as that's what I asked for for road course work.

Also I think both are being held back due to stock engines / transmissions, so not sure really if it means anything as this is about the limit on pump gas (not E85) and stock internals.

At the risk of making the graph a mess, I added Cary's tune from 93 octane without spool limiting. (note - Not my car - This is from VTT's dyno)

Both look to be very good solutions.

Thanks for the comparo Blackey, looks great and IMO your graphs really show the value of the GC's; they spool fantastically and make wonderful power at a sane price. What more need be said?

93 octane dyno: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...=vtt+93+octane

This is a quick E85 tune.... by no means maxed out tune, just a quick one done prior to running the car at the 1/2 mile:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1608484


-Chris

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by 808elise

How so? Dynos show kratos making power quicker on pump then your dyno on e85. Looks like more power throughout too. Watching vids seems like kratos revs very quickly. Alot more money but seems like a safer option aswell.

Since everyone is doing a direct comparison, here is 93 pump vs 93 pump only. Keep in mind, this is with spool intentionally slowed on our car to preserve factory rods. The graphs speak for themselves. But if anyone is having any trouble interpreting. Even with the spool slowed drastically our units spooler quicker, and it you remove the spool limiter. It would be even more drastic, we added blue lines to the area where spool is intentionally slowed, to show would it would look like without it. Our units would reach 400WTQ at 3100 the competition at 3500 for a gain of 400RPM spool. The rest of the graph as you can tell is very close, with the competition making slightly more power up top. This again clearly shows the value of the GC's.