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      04-21-2015, 02:02 PM   #67
karussell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Hauling down my 997.2 Turbo S from 170 mph to 40 mph in a blink over and over on a 100+ deg track day was impressive. Not sure my StopTechs in my M3 would have been capable. But then again no BMW could have hit 170 on the straight. Nothing is worth more than the best tires and braking on a track.
sounds like california speedway on just about any day other than dec/jan. i had stoptechs on my e46 m3 back in the day. they are shit brakes as far as pedal response but they slowed the car just fine consistently. another misnomer is the ceramic brakes will improve braking performance over an equivalent steel rotor multi-piston brake (shortening stopping distance such as this poster claims). they don't.

even the case with the F8X where the pads are larger than steels on ceramic and you have 6/4 pistons versus 4/2. the coefficient of friction provided by them is engineered to be the same. any time you engage the brakes to the point abs intervenes you already exerted 100% of the available stopping force required to stop the wheel from moving. the tires are doing the work of actually slowing the car down and their composition along with the road conditions are what limits their effect. i would take a better tire that last longer any day over a brake pad with a higher coeffecient of friction.
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      04-21-2015, 02:17 PM   #68
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Has anyone here actually driven an F8X with CCB's and without CCB's and felt the difference in stopping power between the two? How is it? Also, how's the pedal feel between the two?

The two big things for me for PCCB's were:

1) Pedal feel

2) Brake dust (or lack thereof)

I've heard the steel brakes on the F82 are good (much better than E92) so I'm not too worried, though intrigued by the possibility of the CCB's having a better pedal feel and no brake dust (was nice on the TTS). I just don't think it's likely to warrant an increase of $145/month over 36 months [ [ $8100 x .62 ] / 36 ] * 1.039.
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      04-21-2015, 02:24 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami
Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
No you won't notice the reduced unsprung weight at all. ceramics are only for lightening your wallet.
I don't know about that. I noticed the difference when I went from the lighter-weight Style 220M wheels to the slightly heavier Style 359M wheels on my E92M. And the delta between the steel and CCBs on the F80 is greater than the delta between those two wheels.
Do we know what that delta is? I remember reading in more than one place that the weight savings of CCB vs steel in general were wiped out on this particular car by the larger rotor size plus the larger caliper. Too lazy to look from my phone right now though.
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      04-21-2015, 02:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classyfast
I don't understand why folks that do not hardcore track get these brakes in the first place. I'm sure the number of hardcore "dedicated track f8x M's" can be counted on one hand right now so why go with these? The technology is still pretty new for street cars, definitely would not consider it for my next M car
Why do people who couldn't drive an Accord to its limits buy anything faster? Why do people who will never track buy an M3 when a 335i would be more than adequate for their needs, never mind those who buy super cars just to take supermodels to restaurants? People want bragging rights, low brake dust, and the enjoyment (imagined or otherwise) of reduced unsprung weight.

I don't see the point of CCBs myself since the upgrade cost alone will pay for a lot of car washes for the road-only folks, and on the track their additional lifespan over steel isn't commensurate with their higher running costs -- and that's before considering the risk of ruining one prematurely by chipping it during a wheel swap or by kicking of debris if you go off-track. If they were cheaper or I had a lot more cash, then sure (as long as I was ok with reduced wheel options), but the numbers don't add up now.
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      04-21-2015, 03:36 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToe View Post
I think this is key. My friend had CCB brakes on his porsche that he tracks a lot and he scrapped them due to cost and limited compatible pad options. Anecdotally people are suggesting the same here. Seems like great technology but not quite in it's prime yet - too costly and still in early generations and not mature.
so here is the conundrum with carbon ceramic brakes.

brembo, porsche, vw group, bmw, mercedes all use the same manufacturer of ceramic rotors. they are a hybrid design. carbon lattice (structural only) with a friction layer and an aluminum semi-floating hub. this design minimizes the weight but they do not last long as the friction layer will wear down. there are no pad compounds with higher coefficient of friction because they will wear down the friction layer faster. in summary they are measurably lighter and for a street car average use will last longer.

a pure carbon ceramic rotor can be made and they do exist. but they are far more expensive than the hybrid design. we are talking cost of a new Mustang GT for rotors. also they have no weight advantage over a steel equivalent. the big benefit of them is they supposedly last a lifetime. As the pad wears down the material is transferred to the rotor. Still pads cost significantly more than mainstream because they are made in a much smaller quantity. The pads also wear out fairly quickly but not as fast as the pads on hybrid design. other than a truly longer life even when tracked, they also offer no performance benefit over a steel rotor.

technology will improve and these brakes will get cheaper. but we got a long way to go before that happens. steel is just far too cheap and simple. as far as the ceramic rotors being still immature. they only been around since mid-90's. on their 3rd generation now. sure they don't delaminate after one track outing like the first GT2's with them but now they are just usable only if you don't plan to actually use them hard and are very very careful and lucky... any serious porsche gt enthusiast that visits tracks regularly won't option ceramics in the first place. if they do happen to get a ceramic'd car then they are among the first things to get replaced. same for f8x. i suggest if you optioned them to try it out for yourself on the track once then to put them up on the shelf for rest of ownership. replace them for resale.
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      04-21-2015, 03:44 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guarnibl View Post
Has anyone here actually driven an F8X with CCB's and without CCB's and felt the difference in stopping power between the two? How is it? Also, how's the pedal feel between the two?

The two big things for me for PCCB's were:

1) Pedal feel

2) Brake dust (or lack thereof)

I've heard the steel brakes on the F82 are good (much better than E92) so I'm not too worried, though intrigued by the possibility of the CCB's having a better pedal feel and no brake dust (was nice on the TTS). I just don't think it's likely to warrant an increase of $145/month over 36 months [ [ $8100 x .62 ] / 36 ] * 1.039.

yes i have back to back.

actually with emergency braking engaging abs i feel the ceramics actually take longer to stop the car than the steels. i want to have another go and get some measurements but the ceramics felt like they were glazed. maybe it was just the car i was in at the time. abused pool car at spratanburgh.

on the track when i got to check them out i noticed no difference in brake fade resistance. pedal modulation was excellent and consistent on both throughout the sessions.

brake dust much less ceramic to steel with oem pads. go to ceramic pad for steel rotors and you will reduced quite a bit of the dust. ceramics still dust, just not as prolific as the oem steel pads.
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      04-21-2015, 03:51 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Do we know what that delta is? I remember reading in more than one place that the weight savings of CCB vs steel in general were wiped out on this particular car by the larger rotor size plus the larger caliper. Too lazy to look from my phone right now though.
rotors themselves lighter. bigger calipers are heavier. net effect is what 16lbs? so i give it 4 per corner.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=923444


BMW M carbon ceramic brakes optional (in gold)
six piston front / four piston rear
6-7kg (13.2lbs - 15.4lbs) lighter overall than standard brakes
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      04-21-2015, 04:34 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welcome to NBA Jam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrippy View Post
8G's?!!! What's it cost with labor?!!!!
One rotor costs $4200.

Front brake pad set costs $650.

DIY for front brake rotors: $9050

Definitely not the option you want outside of warranty.
Not really an option I want at all. I'm sure they're great brakes but that is ridiculous! Besides, I'm not pushing it hard enough on the track to require these. Maybe if I was a guy on the track weekly or a club racer, I would put'em to the test. I couldn't help but think every use of the brake pedal is $50 in day to day driving.
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      04-21-2015, 05:34 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by JSebF1 View Post
Add to this $8k another $15 and U are ready to replace all 4 corners haha
Please.. Let's all stop with the chicken little the sky is falling bs. Most of us buying CCBs will never have this expense. The rotors are a majority of that cost and are claimed by bmw to last the life of the car. The pads, while expensive, are not out of control expensive and last longer than the steel pads.
Let's all stop with the ridiculous exaggerations.
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      04-21-2015, 06:23 PM   #76
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19" discs instead of 18", 6 pistons instead of 4 in the front and 4 pistons instead of 2 in the back, lighter, will last the life of the car in ordinary use, and no brake dust. They offer great, fade-free performance, have a nice feel, and they look great.

These are a few of my favorite things.

For those planning only a few track sessions a year, they offer a nice, don't have to f*ck with swapping out brake pads each time, set up. For track rats, follow FTS' thread in the sub-forum as he is collecting data on how well they stand up to heavier track usage.

He seems to like them, but that could change.

Meanwhile, not all the experiences with the conventional brake have been glowing, with some reports of rotors warping, pads wearing out quickly and the calipers changing color after being exposed to too much heat. Most seem pretty happy though.



While it's great to hear about Porsche owners' experiences with their CCB set-ups from yore I place higher stock on reports, good or bad, from F8x'ers who own them, or at least have tried them.

So while they don't collect any brake dust, they sure do collect a lot of hate. Put a brake on the hate y'all. We just trying to be
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      04-21-2015, 06:35 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post

While it's great to hear about Porsche owners' experiences with their CCB set-ups from yore I place higher stock on reports, good or bad, from F8x'ers who own them, or at least have tried them.

So while they don't collect any brake dust, they sure do collect a lot of hate. Put a brake on the hate y'all. We just trying to be
Exactly!
I plan on starting a thread on something similar because we need to see what *our* experiences are.. CCBs have been out on the M5/6 for years and at least according to the dealers around here, there have been no rotor replacements (at least that they admitted to me). Regardless, we need to see what our community's experience is, and under what conditions.

Everything else I have seen on our forums is hear-say and conjecture.
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      04-21-2015, 07:36 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
So while they don't collect any brake dust, they sure do collect a lot of hate. Put a brake on the hate y'all. We just trying to be
The best part is that the people who hate them the most are the ones that don't have them and never tried them. Funny how that works.

The "glad I didn't get them" crowd are the best ones. Usually the first ones to replace their caliper color too for an added price.
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      04-21-2015, 10:24 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AM4ZING
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyfast View Post
I don't understand why folks that do not hardcore track get these brakes in the first place. I'm sure the number of hardcore "dedicated track f8x M's" can be counted on one hand right now so why go with these? The technology is still pretty new for street cars, definitely would not consider it for my next M car
UNDERSTAND that you probably bought the wrong car...

What kind of mentality is that? Just cuz YOU cheaped out on brakes doesnt mean "you don't understand why people buy them! LMAO!!!!

The looks, lack of brake dust and stopping power are more than enough reasons for me to buy them....


I dont understand why cheap people have to bash on others.... Just cuz you didnt buy it doesnt make you superior and give you the right to talk down on the community (Your so-called non-hardcore drivers) lmfao dude this is ridiculous
Not cheap and not bashing others! Jeez sensitive much??
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      04-21-2015, 10:33 PM   #80
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BMW has R&D. I believe them. If there's no additional benefit comes along with that such expensive price, BMW wouldn't throw it to the market. I think this CCB is better than earlier P buddies CCB. Please don't hate them so much.
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      04-21-2015, 11:03 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrippy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welcome to NBA Jam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrippy View Post
8G's?!!! What's it cost with labor?!!!!
One rotor costs $4200.

Front brake pad set costs $650.

DIY for front brake rotors: $9050

Definitely not the option you want outside of warranty.
Not really an option I want at all. I'm sure they're great brakes but that is ridiculous! Besides, I'm not pushing it hard enough on the track to require these. Maybe if I was a guy on the track weekly or a club racer, I would put'em to the test. I couldn't help but think every use of the brake pedal is $50 in day to day driving.
I was dealing on an M6 a few months back and when I asked them how much it was to replace the brakes at 100kms they told me $8k per corner! It made it an easy decision. In roughly 5 years I will need to spend $32k to replace the brakes on a car that would be worth around $60k. Not worth it at all.
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      04-21-2015, 11:15 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335is_cabriolet View Post
I was dealing on an M6 a few months back and when I asked them how much it was to replace the brakes at 100kms they told me $8k per corner! It made it an easy decision. In roughly 5 years I will need to spend $32k to replace the brakes on a car that would be worth around $60k. Not worth it at all.
Your first mistake was believing every word they said. People are funny.
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      04-21-2015, 11:35 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
sounds like california speedway on just about any day other than dec/jan. i had stoptechs on my e46 m3 back in the day. they are shit brakes as far as pedal response but they slowed the car just fine consistently. another misnomer is the ceramic brakes will improve braking performance over an equivalent steel rotor multi-piston brake (shortening stopping distance such as this poster claims). they don't.

even the case with the F8X where the pads are larger than steels on ceramic and you have 6/4 pistons versus 4/2. the coefficient of friction provided by them is engineered to be the same. any time you engage the brakes to the point abs intervenes you already exerted 100% of the available stopping force required to stop the wheel from moving. the tires are doing the work of actually slowing the car down and their composition along with the road conditions are what limits their effect. i would take a better tire that last longer any day over a brake pad with a higher coeffecient of friction.
Great point with the tires.

Yes Cal Speedway in August. From my limited experience, in extreme conditions (fast track with hard braking zones and long track sessions) the CCB's should perform better. I have warped my StopTech rotors in these situations. Was never a safety issue but still disappointing.

If I ordered an M3/4 I would not opt for the CCB's unless I was made of money for the convenience of not having to change pads/rotors. I don't think the benefit, which is likely limited to the situation I described above, makes them "worth it".
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      04-22-2015, 12:04 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absoluteis350
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post

While it's great to hear about Porsche owners' experiences with their CCB set-ups from yore I place higher stock on reports, good or bad, from F8x'ers who own them, or at least have tried them.

So while they don't collect any brake dust, they sure do collect a lot of hate. Put a brake on the hate y'all. We just trying to be
Exactly!
I plan on starting a thread on something similar because we need to see what *our* experiences are.. CCBs have been out on the M5/6 for years and at least according to the dealers around here, there have been no rotor replacements (at least that they admitted to me). Regardless, we need to see what our community's experience is, and under what conditions.

Everything else I have seen on our forums is hear-say and conjecture.
I started a thread for general CCB feedback sometime ago, it'd be great to see more posts on it! FTS has a great thread going on for track specific use. As of right now I'm pretty stoked to have the CCBs. And I'm still waiting for someone with an F8X (not someone that knows someone with a Porsche or a login to Rennlist...) to share some actual feedback. Sigh. For those that are having the rock issue that sucks for sure but I'm less worried about that personally given warranty/flaw and wheel/tire insurance.
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      04-22-2015, 07:20 AM   #85
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I don't track my car but love the look ! Wow do they stop on the dime ! Oh the best thing no brake dust ! I had them on my Porsche also love CCB .
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      04-22-2015, 07:21 AM   #86
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CCB up close !
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      04-22-2015, 08:12 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Great point with the tires.

Yes Cal Speedway in August. From my limited experience, in extreme conditions (fast track with hard braking zones and long track sessions) the CCB's should perform better. I have warped my StopTech rotors in these situations. Was never a safety issue but still disappointing.

If I ordered an M3/4 I would not opt for the CCB's unless I was made of money for the convenience of not having to change pads/rotors. I don't think the benefit, which is likely limited to the situation I described above, makes them "worth it".
What pads were you running with your stoptechs? if they were the ones that came with a kit likely they were street pads and you melted them onto the rotors. stoptech rotors don't warp. ccb's don't perform better at least not measurably.

actually with california speedway if you are at a decent speed with the f80 you probably will probably wear down your oem pads noticeably by sunday. i recommend a good cool down lap regardless of which rotors you run. the steel brakes with carbotechs have a much better modulation and release characteristics than ccb's with oem pads.

pad change is so easy on this car. pop the two pins swap. takes about 10 minutes per corner for me. good luck trying to get oem ccb pads replaced under maintenance so early. that highly depends on your relationship with the dealer. ccb's for convenience....here is what your list of things to do before and after track day with ccb's

1. jack up car, remove wheel. I recommend a wheel hangar so you don't accidently drop the wheel on the rotor. lift the car only barely enough for you to slide the wheel off without it dropping.
2.use digital caliper and measure rotor thickness. record in log book.
3. inspect front and back of rotor surface for cracks or chips.
4. check brake pads. if they are less than the thickness of the backing plate they need to be replaced. thinner than that and they heat up more further accelerating wear on the friction layer of the rotor.
5. clear out all vent holes in rotors.
6. carefully remount wheel lower then torque
7. check torque again after rolling

bring your jack and everything else you need to remove the wheels to the track. you may need to inspect if you go off, a rock flies in the wheel, you hear any noise in the wheel area.

continue to monitor brake pad thickness throughout the day. visually check front side of rotor for any odd discoloration or damage.

after you get home repeat all the steps above to record new thickness and make sure front and back side of rotors are intact.

tracking requires serious attention to your vehicle and the tires/brakes are the most important systems on the car. so you do inspect steel rotors as well but you don't have to worry about them getting chipped or cracked easily. you can drop your wheel on them accidentally when you are tired. check for cracks joining more than 2 holes on rotor surface. swap to endurance pads. you can ride them until the wear sensor goes off and beyond but i generally don't like the added heat in the hubs so i also change when they are the width of the backing plate. but then they don't wear down nearly as fast as the soft ccb pads do.

overall its much less work running steel rotors. if thats the reason you wanted ccb's you are in for a surprise. you bought the car with them on it already. like i said. if you track the car regularly shelve the ceramics and go to a decent steel rotor. PFC would be my first call.
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      04-22-2015, 08:29 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewDavid View Post
I started a thread for general CCB feedback sometime ago, it'd be great to see more posts on it! FTS has a great thread going on for track specific use. As of right now I'm pretty stoked to have the CCBs. And I'm still waiting for someone with an F8X (not someone that knows someone with a Porsche or a login to Rennlist...) to share some actual feedback. Sigh. For those that are having the rock issue that sucks for sure but I'm less worried about that personally given warranty/flaw and wheel/tire insurance.
They are the same manufacturer and same design as PCCB. why would experience using them on a porsche not apply to the bmw with the same brakes? if anything we are dealing with much heavier cars so their benefit is relatively lower since their only measurable quality is lower unsprung weight.

you won't see an M5 needing replacement ccb's because you won't see them on a track? I have had 3 students in F10 M5's in the last 3 years and all had steels. I had over a dozen F8X students. 2 with ccb's. drove on f8x with ccb's on 3 different tracks including bmw's performance center.

the truth is no one can really justify them other than saying they swear they feel they stop better or they feel lighter which is ridiculous. they look good and they are lighter. thats what you tell everyone at the bar. they last longer as long as you cruise down the boulevard. thats the reality.
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