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      04-22-2015, 10:19 AM   #89
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Girl at bar: "Hey, nice to meet you. What do you do?"
Me at bar: "Carbon Ceramic Brakes"

Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
They are the same manufacturer and same design as PCCB. why would experience using them on a porsche not apply to the bmw with the same brakes? if anything we are dealing with much heavier cars so their benefit is relatively lower since their only measurable quality is lower unsprung weight.

you won't see an M5 needing replacement ccb's because you won't see them on a track? I have had 3 students in F10 M5's in the last 3 years and all had steels. I had over a dozen F8X students. 2 with ccb's. drove on f8x with ccb's on 3 different tracks including bmw's performance center.

the truth is no one can really justify them other than saying they swear they feel they stop better or they feel lighter which is ridiculous. they look good and they are lighter. thats what you tell everyone at the bar. they last longer as long as you cruise down the boulevard. thats the reality.
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      04-22-2015, 10:28 AM   #90
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Seriously, though, this is basically an exercise in freakonomics. You could probably buy a cheaper car, make it faster and more enjoyable at the track than an M3/4, but you didn't because you're an M enthusiast. Taking a step back, the same argument you're making about CCBs could also be made about your M. Next, you're going tell me and the rest of CA to move to a state without income tax or to shop exclusively at Target.

Brakes. You know why I did it? I guess because I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
They are the same manufacturer and same design as PCCB. why would experience using them on a porsche not apply to the bmw with the same brakes? if anything we are dealing with much heavier cars so their benefit is relatively lower since their only measurable quality is lower unsprung weight.

you won't see an M5 needing replacement ccb's because you won't see them on a track? I have had 3 students in F10 M5's in the last 3 years and all had steels. I had over a dozen F8X students. 2 with ccb's. drove on f8x with ccb's on 3 different tracks including bmw's performance center.

the truth is no one can really justify them other than saying they swear they feel they stop better or they feel lighter which is ridiculous. they look good and they are lighter. thats what you tell everyone at the bar. they last longer as long as you cruise down the boulevard. thats the reality.
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      04-22-2015, 11:11 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewDavid View Post
Seriously, though, this is basically an exercise in freakonomics. You could probably buy a cheaper car, make it faster and more enjoyable at the track than an M3/4, but you didn't because you're an M enthusiast. Taking a step back, the same argument you're making about CCBs could also be made about your M. Next, you're going tell me and the rest of CA to move to a state without income tax or to shop exclusively at Target.

Brakes. You know why I did it? I guess because I can.
no, its an exercise in futility really. i got ceramics and tried them for myself. repeatedly i have said go for it to anyone that wants to try it for themselves. Based on my experience i decided not to waste money on them again and I gave my reasons. I got nothing against people that want to buy ceramic brakes but I don't need any more people gloating over perceived benefits when they aren't proven or simply do not exist. thats bullshit.

an m3 is faster at any track than a 335. thats measurable. a ccb equipped m3 can get around a track faster than a stainless steel braked m3? prove it. a ccb rotor is worth the higher cost when used on track? prove it. i have found its by far more expensive. a ccb rotor is easier to use on track? prove it. its way more pain in the ass to keep measuring them for thickness and inspecting for rock chips.

You can live wherever you wish. I lived in LA for several years. It was great but like any place it has its good and bad points.
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      04-22-2015, 11:24 AM   #92
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CCB rotors definitely don't weigh MORE than steel rotors; they don't stop any LESS effectively, or have a LOWER thermal limit than steel rotors. CCB are absolutely not a step backward in performance. I subscribe to the theory that lighter rotational and unsprung weight makes speeding up, slowing down, and changing directions easier. Personally I believe the only valid debate is cost.
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      04-22-2015, 12:18 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
here is what your list of things to do before and after track day with ccb's

1. jack up car, remove wheel. I recommend a wheel hangar so you don't accidently drop the wheel on the rotor. lift the car only barely enough for you to slide the wheel off without it dropping.
2.use digital caliper and measure rotor thickness. record in log book.
3. inspect front and back of rotor surface for cracks or chips.
4. check brake pads. if they are less than the thickness of the backing plate they need to be replaced. thinner than that and they heat up more further accelerating wear on the friction layer of the rotor.
5. clear out all vent holes in rotors.
6. carefully remount wheel lower then torque
7. check torque again after rolling

bring your jack and everything else you need to remove the wheels to the track. you may need to inspect if you go off, a rock flies in the wheel, you hear any noise in the wheel area.

continue to monitor brake pad thickness throughout the day. visually check front side of rotor for any odd discoloration or damage.

after you get home repeat all the steps above to record new thickness and make sure front and back side of rotors are intact.
Orrrrrrr ... you can simply have a gander at the handy dandy wear indicators described in the service bulletins mentioned in the very first post in this thread. Pitting and cracks are a concern, but you can inspect for this without having to remove the wheels by looking and then rolling the car forward and looking some more.

By your standard, you should disassemble the engine after heavy use to check for damage too. Because the engine is important. Just to be safe.

Yes, there is a concern about pitting and chips with these brakes. The same service bulletin seems to suggest that damage from spalling or pitting can be replaced as a defective part during the warranty period. I'm not sure about chips but I happen to think that most vehicle comprehensive policies should cover it, if warranty does not.

We do not have a good data set on problems with chips yet because, in spite of all the fear, loathing and alarms, there do no seem to be any reported problems of this nature with the F8x CCB's. At least not yet. The only reported problem, as far as I know, has to be with the narrow gap between the callipers and the wheel drum with standard 19" rims, where stones can get lodged and scratch the wheels.

Meanwhile, there have been some bad experiences reported at the track and spirited driving with the conventional brakes. Not that they are unexpected.

Melted my stock brake pads in 90 miles

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1117355

Stock brakes severe letdown

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1028958

F80 M3 brake judder

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1038273

Brake callipers changing from blue to green due to overheating

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1115447

Granted, the CCB's may be overkill with their larger diameter rotors, additional pistons etc given the available tire friction. But it is not a bad area in which to be over-engineered, no?

Besides they look great, have no brake dust, and provide great pick-up lines when trying to impress the ladies.
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      04-22-2015, 01:25 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Orrrrrrr ... you can simply have a gander at the handy dandy wear indicators described in the service bulletins mentioned in the very first post in this thread. Pitting and cracks are a concern, but you can inspect for this without having to remove the wheels by looking and then rolling the car forward and looking some more.

By your standard, you should disassemble the engine after heavy use to check for damage too. Because the engine is important. Just to be safe.

Yes, there is a concern about pitting and chips with these brakes. The same service bulletin seems to suggest that damage from spalling or pitting can be replaced as a defective part during the warranty period. I'm not sure about chips but I happen to think that most vehicle comprehensive policies should cover it, if warranty does not.

We do not have a good data set on problems with chips yet because, in spite of all the fear, loathing and alarms, there do no seem to be any reported problems of this nature with the F8x CCB's. At least not yet. The only reported problem, as far as I know, has to be with the narrow gap between the callipers and the wheel drum with standard 19" rims, where stones can get lodged and scratch the wheels.

Meanwhile, there have been some bad experiences reported at the track and spirited driving with the conventional brakes. Not that they are unexpected.

Melted my stock brake pads in 90 miles

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1117355

Stock brakes severe letdown

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1028958

F80 M3 brake judder

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1038273

Brake callipers changing from blue to green due to overheating

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1115447

Granted, the CCB's may be overkill with their larger diameter rotors, additional pistons etc given the available tire friction. But it is not a bad area in which to be over-engineered, no?

Besides they look great, have no brake dust, and provide great pick-up lines when trying to impress the ladies.

the stock steel brakes work fine. properly cooling them down helps with street pad material transferring and getting stuck. the oem pad is okay on track which i definitely tested but its designed for the street and proper endurance pads for a 3000+ lb street car really make it sing. the best thing about steel rotors is you have many many options in pads to fit your needs. the calipers discolor from heat and i have seen that on just about every caliper out there over the years. even mighty pccb calipers. the yellow on them turns to a more faded yellow. the color doesn't affect the performance however.

from my experience. if the engine fails you don't go. if the brakes fail you can't stop. i will decide which of those components i'm most concerned with.
measuring the thickness give you an idea of how quickly they wear down. not so much of a safety factor there but for me the ceramics on my car were expensive and I wanted to see the effects of tracking. you don't want to wait until the wear circles are visible. think how that affects resale for one.

the fact is the steel brakes work well on this car and you have the usual myriad of pad choices to compliment the type of environment you want to be driving in. what choice do you have on ceramics? and if there is any sign of premature wear on ceramics what dealership is going to cover the cost of servicing them for you? bmw doesn't warrant the car or any of its components the second it touches a track. the most expensive wearable component to service is the ceramic rotors. no they don't last longer than steels to the point they justify their costs. and they certainly aren't has hardy as steel. just be extra careful every time you change out your wheels.
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      04-22-2015, 04:32 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
just be extra careful every time you change out your wheels.
Amen to that. I've been telling my dealership to be extra careful every time I've had them switch my tires. And thanks for the tip on the wheel hanger!!! I've been looking around for something and came up with goose eggs. Turns out "hanger" was the word I was missing.

Burgermotorsports has a handy $10 tool that I ordered. This is a link to it if anyone else is interested.

http://burgertuning.com/wheel_hanger_pin_BMW.html

I was also thinking about draping a few wet clothes on the top of the rotor to protect it during tire changes. Have you seen anyone do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
the fact is the steel brakes work well on this car and you have the usual myriad of pad choices to compliment the type of environment you want to be driving in. what choice do you have on ceramics?
I think one of the attractions of the CCB's is that the pads work well enough to not have to worry about different options. You can drive to the track, drive around the track and then drive home without having to do swap anything.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

This will be more attractive to some than others. It certainly is nothing to get hung up about.
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      04-22-2015, 05:45 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
By your standard, you should disassemble the engine after heavy use to check for damage too. Because the engine is important. Just to be safe.
Haha, so true. There surely are some interesting people on this forum.

People are worried about the value of CCBs when buying a premium brand sportscar to begin with is a complete waste of money. We get them all on this forum, that's for sure!
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      04-23-2015, 11:00 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Amen to that. I've been telling my dealership to be extra careful every time I've had them switch my tires. And thanks for the tip on the wheel hanger!!! I've been looking around for something and came up with goose eggs. Turns out "hanger" was the word I was missing.

Burgermotorsports has a handy $10 tool that I ordered. This is a link to it if anyone else is interested.

http://burgertuning.com/wheel_hanger_pin_BMW.html

I was also thinking about draping a few wet clothes on the top of the rotor to protect it during tire changes. Have you seen anyone do that?



I think one of the attractions of the CCB's is that the pads work well enough to not have to worry about different options. You can drive to the track, drive around the track and then drive home without having to do swap anything.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

This will be more attractive to some than others. It certainly is nothing to get hung up about.

yes, usually would put a nice thick towel over the rotor just to protect it. just jack up the car barely enough to slide the wheel off. on the rear wheels of the gt3rs this was a major hassle. that wheel is friggen huge! i even thought about getting some of those rolling platforms so i could just slide the giant wheel off. you get used to it.

the one thing i can say about using ceramics for 4 years was i was more methodical when prepping the car than before and thats always a positive. you just get into a pattern. thank god the M3 doesn't have centerlock wheels. god those are a pain in the ass to another level.

the pads on the M ccb's hold up to track use as well as steel i found. but really its so easy to swap pads. try RS-29's on the steel braked car and you will be amazed how they feel on a course lap after lap all day all night.

oh get two wheel hangers. especially if you ever run a spacer. makes it so much more easier.
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      04-23-2015, 11:49 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04RC51 View Post
Haha, so true. There surely are some interesting people on this forum.

People are worried about the value of CCBs when buying a premium brand sportscar to begin with is a complete waste of money. We get them all on this forum, that's for sure!
The M3 is the best performing vehicle in its price range that can still carry actual passengers, has a usable trunk, and is genuinely usable every day. Thats why I have one now. If there were another car that did all that better and looked good while costing less I would have picked that.

The 991 GT3 RS is 180k track toy. I will bet 90% of them that are tracked heavily will be optioned with steel rotors. Do you think the folks ordering these cars are concerned with a $9000 option having value or not for the purpose of the car? You bet. If they were such an important factor to the cars performance why wouldn't it just be standard? PDK is since its just plain faster with it and also facilitates the rear wheel steering which makes it handle better. yet ceramic brakes are optional and even more so they aren't optioned by people that use the car on a track. so their merits are much more for show than go. to state otherwise makes no sense.

Just about every club out there requires a technical inspection performed before driving on a track. Nothing wrong with inspecting your brakes before and after driving. When you start assuming that pushing a car on a track with other people is a safe activity that is when accidents happen. relating inspecting the ceramic rotors for their unique attributes and limitations and performing an engine tear down after a track session is nonsensical. I do however check for any fluid leaks. if someone doesn't take this seriously on the track then I don't want them driving anywhere near me. it sucks to have a preventable problem cause you to miss out on a session. it sucks more to have that issue happen while pushing the car and causing an incident. it really sucks when the person in front of you didnt do their job and causes you to have a bad day.
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      08-31-2015, 10:55 PM   #99
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Anyone know if I can put my BBK Brembo from E92 on an M4? I want to keep the brakes if possible and change rotors as that is likely.
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      11-14-2015, 11:43 AM   #100
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Refurbishing Process...

Click on navigation ,then refurbishment

http://www.carbonceramicbrake.com/re...t-service.html
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      12-26-2015, 05:51 PM   #101
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I went CCB - one reason

-didn't care for HUD, Parking blah, Exec meh, Extended leather pfft..Added up they covered CCB

just my 2c
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      02-06-2016, 02:55 PM   #102
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Complete brake solution for M3/M4 (Incl. CCB)

http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=1497

Option 2 is for dedicated track/racing, heavy duty (380x36mm) w/6pot caliper.

Option 3 is for CCB conversion to Iron rotor.
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      06-04-2016, 09:05 PM   #103
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CCB Brakes "Advisory" !!!! Warning

I am posting from my experience and want to share my insight to anyone opting for the Carbon Ceramic Brakes (CCB).

First off they're great on the track, you won't have to worry about warping, they will definitely outlast your traditional steel rotors and out perform.

Since receiving my M4 equiped CCB in August of 2015 I managed to rack up about 19K. I just replaced my pads, and as a warning if you trust the electronics in your car to tell you when to replace your brakes you will be replacing your rotors.

The Brembo made brake kit fitted with a BMW brake wear sensor allows the friction material to wear down till the rivets holding that material to mounting plate is exposed which will cause grooves in your carbon ceramic brake rotors.

Will you need to replace them, probably not, pads yes. It was a track day for me and I waited last minute to pick up a set of pads, my brake wear sensor never went off. I can only image the damage if I allowed the computer to notify me that I need to change my brakes.

If you're the type of person to take your car in for service or have it modified by someone else, you might want to take into consideration if it's a place that will properly service it. Chances are if you have CCBs fitted to your car and you go in for service they may not even touch your brakes because of what the iDrive says. My iDrive reads front brakes 130,000 come in for service.

If you care about the longevity of your brakes, steel or ccb, take a 4mm allen key might be different on steel vs ccb but use it to clear out the drills in your rotors, use caution keep the key straight, it should pass straight through on a clean drill, if it doesn't try to turn the key a little, don't move it side to side or up and down you can and will most likely cause damage. The purpose of cleaning these out is to allow proper air flow for cooling in hard braking situations, it is a good idea to check often to increase the longevity and performance of your brakes.

One more negative, I was never notified by BMW regarding my CCBs of how they should be cared for. After owning 3 BMW's I didn't think that the same car wash would do any damage to my car however BMW Corporate referred me to BMW USA and did advise me after viewing photos of my CCBs that the white oxidation on the center hubs is from chemicals and that they would not warranty them. I owned my M4 for only 3 months garage kept, never driven in rain or snow.

To my disappointment and probably yours too, be advised if you buy these brakes BMW does not stand behind them in any regard. If you bought the steels enjoy chemical car washes with out any issue, as many track days as they can take.

Pass this on to your buddies, also if you do buy them you can coat the center hubs in a Ceramic Coating. I use Always Dry, works great on wheels.
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      06-04-2016, 09:37 PM   #104
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Quote:
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Since receiving my M4 equiped CCB in August of 2015 I managed to rack up about 19K. I just replaced my pads, and as a warning if you trust the electronics in your car to tell you when to replace your brakes you will be replacing your rotors.
How many track days has the car seen with those pads before replacing?
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      06-05-2016, 04:43 PM   #105
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I have been to 7trackdays each 20min*2 and from the markers the front rotors need to be changed already, I will definitely need to weight them. The rears are holding on but given their markers status they don't have much left in them as well. My car is almost 24k miles on it. I can't understand the people who doesn't have problems with CCBs, I mean either they don't track or do something different which I don't know, to protect them I will try to post some pics of my rotors when I have time.
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      06-07-2016, 03:40 AM   #106
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Seeems like changing the CCB rotors at 20K miles is the norm.
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      06-07-2016, 07:04 AM   #107
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Seeems like changing the CCB rotors at 20K miles is the norm.
I wonder what the cost of a CCB brake job is? $20K ?
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      06-07-2016, 10:20 AM   #108
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I still feel like there has not been many actual experiences with "normal" wear in the CCB's and service required. Track I get, there are too many variables to conclude exactly how many track days you will get out of the CCB's but we kind of know that, so track at your own risk, which is kind of the same for any part of the car.

As for daily driving/spirited road driving, do we have any actual experiences, either that they are not wearing at all after X number of miles or that they have worn to a certain level or needed replacing after X miles???
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      06-07-2016, 10:28 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regulator07 View Post
I still feel like there has not been many actual experiences with "normal" wear in the CCB's and service required. Track I get, there are too many variables to conclude exactly how many track days you will get out of the CCB's but we kind of know that, so track at your own risk, which is kind of the same for any part of the car.

As for daily driving/spirited road driving, do we have any actual experiences, either that they are not wearing at all after X number of miles or that they have worn to a certain level or needed replacing after X miles???
So far, it seems like it is panning out as some of us have been speculating:

With track use, the CCB seem to wear out pretty fast, almost at the same rate as iron rotors (some reported even faster).

With street only use (even very aggressive), the CCB will likely outlive the car itself.
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      06-07-2016, 10:30 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shahano View Post
Seeems like changing the CCB rotors at 20K miles is the norm.
It is difficult to put an exact number of miles. On a street driven car, the CCB will likely outlive the car. On a car that sees the track, it all depends how many track miles it sees relative to street miles.
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