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      06-13-2018, 01:37 PM   #1
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Exclamation Brake Fade

2016 Manual M3
12,500 Miles

This past weekend coming back from a grocery run, I went on a ~5 mile spirited run through some awesome twisty backroads. Pushed the car pretty hard and was heavy on braking at the stop signs. Coming to the last stop sign at the end of the run and the car didn't want to stop like it normally does. Massive brake fade and I barely made the stop. Needless to say I was really surprised. Granted I have not pushed the car this hard in the last 2.5 years of ownership but the lack of braking really surprised me.

Normal?
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      06-13-2018, 01:38 PM   #2
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Not normal, may be time to get the brake fluid flushed.
You may have started boiling the brake fluid.
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      06-13-2018, 02:03 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suds View Post
Not normal, may be time to get the brake fluid flushed.
You may have started boiling the brake fluid.
That could be it - I agree. Brake fluid flush a must.

OEM pads are also not meant for hard abuse over a short time...updgrade to Ferodo pads and you'll be happy
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      06-13-2018, 02:38 PM   #4
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OEM pads and fluids can handle 5 miles of hard usage. Something is up OP

or was the 5 miles trying to drift with mdm mode on?
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      06-13-2018, 03:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
OEM pads and fluids can handle 5 miles of hard usage. Something is up OP

or was the 5 miles trying to drift with mdm mode on?
No drifting. Just involved some hard braking.
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      06-13-2018, 05:50 PM   #6
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I've seen this on a one month old car so its nothing to do with fluid, more BMW's complete inability to manufacture decent brakes !

No idea what the solution is other than a pad change as mentioned
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      06-13-2018, 05:56 PM   #7
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as mentioned above I would start with a brake fluid flush and change out pads.
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      06-13-2018, 06:04 PM   #8
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It's the pads...they are more for moderate street driving. I've got them to smoke pretty bad during a mountain run under hard driving.

I never have any issues with track pads...
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      06-13-2018, 07:41 PM   #9
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I can say that my F80 has stronger brakes than my last two cars (Audi S4 and VW Golf R), but I don't push this car hard enough to cook the stock pads.
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      06-13-2018, 07:46 PM   #10
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I think the pads are fine. The OEM pads stop well but just don’t have the “bite” track/endurance pads do. The major difference between track pads and OEM pads is one last way longer than the other.

It may also be due to your driving style. Hard spirited street driving can be hard on your brakes as there are situations where you need to “shave a little speed” just for safety reasons instead on a firm brake/full stomp on the brakes. At high speeds + light braking will creates a lot of heat = brake fade.


Also very likely it could be the brake fluid. One hot day + hard driving could do this fairly quickly.

Stainless steel lines + upgrade brake fluid, you’ll be good to go!
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      06-14-2018, 12:13 AM   #11
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You first need to figure out what type of brake fade you were experiencing to figure how to fix it. There are generaly two types of brake fade:
  1. Pad fade: brake pedal remains relatively firm, however, no matter how hard you press (how much force is applied) on the brake pedal, the car struggles to slow down. At the exteme, the car will not stop at all regardless of how much force is applied on the padal.
  2. Fluid fade: the brake pedal becomes long and goes deep with only moderate amount of force applied on the pedal, however, when force is applied on the pedal, good braking force is achieved despite the pedal being burried in the footwell. At the extreme, the pedal gets so long that it buts against footwell without providing sufficient stopping.
As you can deduct, flushing the fluid will do nothing to fix pad fade and changing pads will do nothing to fix fluid fade. Be aware though, that the pedal getting longer with hard repeatd use is perfectly normal. I track my M4 a fair bit and find the brakes pretty stout. The pedal does become longer but the car still stops fine.
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      06-14-2018, 09:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You first need to figure out what type of brake fade you were experiencing to figure how to fix it. There are generaly two types of brake fade:
  1. Pad fade: brake pedal remains relatively firm, however, no matter how hard you press (how much force is applied) on the brake pedal, the car struggles to slow down. At the exteme, the car will not stop at all regardless of how much force is applied on the padal.
  2. Fluid fade: the brake becomes long and goes deep with only moderate amount of force applied on the pedal, however, when force is applied on the pedal, good braking force is achieved despite the pedal being burried in the footwell. At the extreme, the pedal gets so long that it buts against footwell without providing sufficient stopping.
As you can deduct, flushing the fluid will do nothing to fix pad fade and changing pads will do nothing to fix fluid fade. Be aware though, that the pedal getting longer with hard repeatd use is perfectly normal. I track my M4 a fair bit and find the brakes pretty stout. The pedal does become longer but the car still stops fine.
Definitely #1.
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      09-26-2019, 11:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy L Garage View Post
That could be it - I agree. Brake fluid flush a must.

OEM pads are also not meant for hard abuse over a short time...updgrade to Ferodo pads and you'll be happy
So pretty much every day or every other day I push my car to the limits on these corners 3 miles racing hard braking etc it’s perfect about within maybe the first 5 corners my brakes have already started to fade, pad fade. Then it gets worse obviously then I push to floor and nothing you just hear the brakes struggling. I was gonna go with stainless steel lines, better fluid and pads what do you guys think?
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      09-27-2019, 06:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4BimmerChris View Post
Then it gets worse obviously then I push to floor and nothing you just hear the brakes struggling. I was gonna go with stainless steel lines, better fluid and pads what do you guys think?
This happened once to me at the track. I suspect that the dealer skipped bleeding the LR location during the fluid flush for fear they would break off the bleeder screw since it was seized. Returned to the dealer and they did ultimately break the screw off and had to replace the caliper. Having fresh brake fluid is way more important than I ever realized. I would start there and then move on to the lines, etc.
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      09-27-2019, 11:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris N View Post
This happened once to me at the track. I suspect that the dealer skipped bleeding the LR location during the fluid flush for fear they would break off the bleeder screw since it was seized. Returned to the dealer and they did ultimately break the screw off and had to replace the caliper. Having fresh brake fluid is way more important than I ever realized. I would start there and then move on to the lines, etc.
The thing is I just had it flushed around 3k miles ago so this may be true.
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      09-29-2019, 08:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4BimmerChris View Post
So pretty much every day or every other day I push my car to the limits on these corners 3 miles racing hard braking etc it’s perfect about within maybe the first 5 corners my brakes have already started to fade, pad fade. Then it gets worse obviously then I push to floor and nothing you just hear the brakes struggling. I was gonna go with stainless steel lines, better fluid and pads what do you guys think?
You say you are experiencing pad fade, so I assume you read what I posted earlier in the thread.

I was once stuck running the stock front pads at the track. They worked very decently without sign of fade for 30 minute sessions and and I was turning laps only a few tenths off my personal best. The stock pads are pretty stout in terms of performance when properly managed. The main caveat is wear, I wore down brand new pads in less than one track day .

If you experience fade one the street, where braking does not even come close to what brakes see on the track it could be related to improper bedding and you end up glazing the pads.
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      09-30-2019, 01:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You say you are experiencing pad fade, so I assume you read what I posted earlier in the thread.

I was once stuck running the stock front pads at the track. They worked very decently without sign of fade for 30 minute sessions and and I was turning laps only a few tenths off my personal best. The stock pads are pretty stout in terms of performance when properly managed. The main caveat is wear, I wore down brand new pads in less than one track day .

If you experience fade one the street, where braking does not even come close to what brakes see on the track it could be related to improper bedding and you end up glazing the pads.
Yes I read your “pad fade” it’s hard mountain driving uphill downhill curves. If I go the whole route it’s 12 miles it’s kinda like racing at the Nurburgring nonstop every other day. but So it takes a toll on them.. The brake pedal instead of pushing it just a bit to stop now you push it a good ways to stop the car (less touchy more pushy) in pedal feel. Plus I think this is normal but I get that squeak on the brakes bad only in reverse tho
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      09-30-2019, 12:46 PM   #18
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With hard driving this is completely normal, especially with stock pads. They're absolutely terrible. I was lazy and decided not to swap my pads before a track event. After 1 session my rotors were covered in deposit and brake distance got significantly worse by the minute. The hotter it is outside, the worse it gets. If you were pre-abs braking, 5 miles is more than enough to cook them.

Our cars have ZERO brake cooling and the stock pads are inadequate for anything outside of daily driving even if they have a stupid ass "M" on the backing plate. Pathetic design of a "sports car" courtesy of BMW.
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      10-02-2019, 02:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
With hard driving this is completely normal, especially with stock pads. They're absolutely terrible. I was lazy and decided not to swap my pads before a track event. After 1 session my rotors were covered in deposit and brake distance got significantly worse by the minute. The hotter it is outside, the worse it gets. If you were pre-abs braking, 5 miles is more than enough to cook them.

Our cars have ZERO brake cooling and the stock pads are inadequate for anything outside of daily driving even if they have a stupid ass "M" on the backing plate.
This. There are a lot of things I really like about this car, but the street focus of the brakes is not one of them. The stock pads are definitely designed for no noise, long wear, and to work well in low temperatures. Mine resonated noticeably on the the Nurburgring or under braking from high autobahn speeds.
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      10-10-2019, 12:14 AM   #20
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Spirited driving around town shouldn’t do that. Might consider whether you are braking early and riding them in turns. Ive noticed the better I learn to brake, the better my brakes hold up. Might consider a bleed.
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      10-10-2019, 06:17 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYG View Post
With hard driving this is completely normal, especially with stock pads. They're absolutely terrible. I was lazy and decided not to swap my pads before a track event. After 1 session my rotors were covered in deposit and brake distance got significantly worse by the minute. The hotter it is outside, the worse it gets. If you were pre-abs braking, 5 miles is more than enough to cook them.

Our cars have ZERO brake cooling and the stock pads are inadequate for anything outside of daily driving even if they have a stupid ass "M" on the backing plate. Pathetic design of a "sports car" courtesy of BMW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingLow78 View Post
This. There are a lot of things I really like about this car, but the street focus of the brakes is not one of them. The stock pads are definitely designed for no noise, long wear, and to work well in low temperatures. Mine resonated noticeably on the the Nurburgring or under braking from high autobahn speeds.
The stock pads are not intended for track use. It is even stated in the owner's manual.
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      10-10-2019, 02:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The stock pads are not intended for track use. It is even stated in the owner's manual.
Any recommendation on pads for 1st time track use?
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