BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-02-2019, 01:56 AM   #1
SE7EN335
Captain
327
Rep
984
Posts

Drives: 2022 M3 XDrive, 2023 IX M60
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (1)

Advice on suspension set up

I currently have a set of Bilstein B6s waiting in the garage. I want to install them with MP HAS and code the EDC with CS EDC settings. Has anyone tried that set up?

The car is a daily driver over some pretty shitty roads and aim to do track days about once every 2-3 months.

Would the set up be sufficient for those purposes or will it be too soft or stiff for those purposes?
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2019, 05:55 AM   #2
ntg44
Colonel
ntg44's Avatar
United_States
2888
Rep
2,147
Posts

Drives: R8 4.2 Spyder
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

I can't 100% relate, but I came from B16 Damptronic (which uses B6D shocks, although tuned to the kit vs. the standalone shocks you have), and am now on MP HAS with stock EDC shocks.

You will love the comfort of the MP HAS spring rates. Definitely feels stock to me, especially comparing to B16D.

You will also love the B6D's damping force. No longer will the car be cutting throttle over bumps, and you may even get an increase in steering feel (I did on my B16D, but not sure what was the biggest contributor).

In the end, the B16D kit was too much for my wife to handle, so I had to settle for something softer. But I miss how well the car would hook with the B16 kit. I think the combo you suggested will pair nicely, and if you want a cheaper route, I'd probably do Eibach V2 with B6D shocks. Do not recommend going any lower, otherwise it's bumpstop city.
Appreciate 1
jfritz271100.50
      12-02-2019, 02:46 PM   #3
jfritz27
Major
jfritz27's Avatar
1101
Rep
1,288
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 CS
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Interested in this thread...

First, ntg44, I want to give a big thanks for your other write-ups on the Damptronic kit. I'm hoping maybe you and/or other folks on this thread could put up with some dumb questions from a suspension noob -- I'm trying to get smarter with this stuff but I find it a challenging topic.

I currently have the MP HAS on my ZCP. After warranty expires, and with me getting more serious with tracking the car, I'm thinking about what's next for suspension to help maximize grip through fast corners and have been looking at the Damptronic kit.

Would someone be willing to briefly explain how one thinks about springs in relation to dampers, how this affects ride height and so forth (I understand that lowering springs, for example, are shorter, but therefore necessitate higher rates, which then have the effect of reducing the usable travel of the damper, right?)... The Damptronic kit comes with its own springs, correct? From what I've researched, the rates for these haven't been documented. How would one know whether the MP HAS springs are "compatible" with the Damptronic kit? When I say "compatible", I mean that they will physically fit, how they affect the damper function, and how they then affect ride height. (Again, sorry, these are quite basic)

Also, can one adjust the ride height with the Damptronic kit by itself? Meaning, that's an inherent quality of the kit without need for additional mods?

Thanks for any insights guys/gals...
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2019, 03:24 PM   #4
ntg44
Colonel
ntg44's Avatar
United_States
2888
Rep
2,147
Posts

Drives: R8 4.2 Spyder
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfritz27 View Post
Interested in this thread...

First, ntg44, I want to give a big thanks for your other write-ups on the Damptronic kit. I'm hoping maybe you and/or other folks on this thread could put up with some dumb questions from a suspension noob -- I'm trying to get smarter with this stuff but I find it a challenging topic.

I currently have the MP HAS on my ZCP. After warranty expires, and with me getting more serious with tracking the car, I'm thinking about what's next for suspension to help maximize grip through fast corners and have been looking at the Damptronic kit.

Would someone be willing to briefly explain how one thinks about springs in relation to dampers, how this affects ride height and so forth (I understand that lowering springs, for example, are shorter, but therefore necessitate higher rates, which then have the effect of reducing the usable travel of the damper, right?)... The Damptronic kit comes with its own springs, correct? From what I've researched, the rates for these haven't been documented. How would one know whether the MP HAS springs are "compatible" with the Damptronic kit? When I say "compatible", I mean that they will physically fit, how they affect the damper function, and how they then affect ride height. (Again, sorry, these are quite basic)

Also, can one adjust the ride height with the Damptronic kit by itself? Meaning, that's an inherent quality of the kit without need for additional mods?

Thanks for any insights guys/gals...

I won't have the really technical answers, but I can chime in where I know a thing or 2, mainly Bilstein Damptronic kits.

First thing - There are 2 Bilstein Damptronic kits "available" for this platform.

The first, is Bilstein B16 Damptronic - this is a full plug & play coil over system, including shocks,springs, and all the related hardware. This kit is 100% plug and play for EDC cars - just swap out and drive. Also height adjustable.

The second, is Bilstein B6 Damptronic shocks - these are only plug and play shocks with 100% OEM EDC integration. These are factory height shocks with much better damping, but you can use these with any springs that you can use with stock shocks - from stock to lowered. A shock can be compressed until it hits the bump stop - then it is no longer damping for you. Given that the generic B6D shocks are stock height shocks, it would be wise to use them with stock or conservatively dropped springs (like MP HAS). However, the B6D standalone shocks are basically nonexistent in the US, so if you want an actual physical Bilstein kit on your car, you're going to want the full B16 kit (or the passive version, called PSS10, if you don't require EDC integration). For the price, it's hard to beat.


Spring rates are what determine spring stiffness, not height necessarily. However, if you have a short and soft spring with stock height shocks, you're going to be hitting the bump stops a lot more from full compression, so your suspension is going to feel like crap. In my experience, Macht Schnell springs gave this sensation (in the rear). I didn't know until I changed to B16D and then to MP HAS with a much more conservative drop.

There are still only (technically) 4 options available in the US for cars with EDC if you want to keep EDC that I know of.

- B16 Damptronic

- B6 Damptronic shocks - can't get them in US

- KW DDC - same philosophy as B16D, full coil over system, but is not 100% plug and play like B16D. This kit is also considerably more expensive, but those who have it like it.

- Tractive electronic dampers - again, can't really figure out how to get them in the US. Some members have mentioned contacting DSC Sport to attain a set, but I have yet to encounter a post from someone in the US who actually acquired these from the US. Otherwise, I think this would have been the go to solution a long time ago for everyone with EDC.
Appreciate 2
jfritz271100.50
AlterZgo1537.50
      12-03-2019, 07:07 AM   #5
jfritz27
Major
jfritz27's Avatar
1101
Rep
1,288
Posts

Drives: 2018 F80 CS
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntg44 View Post
I won't have the really technical answers, but I can chime in where I know a thing or 2, mainly Bilstein Damptronic kits.

First thing - There are 2 Bilstein Damptronic kits "available" for this platform.

The first, is Bilstein B16 Damptronic - this is a full plug & play coil over system, including shocks,springs, and all the related hardware. This kit is 100% plug and play for EDC cars - just swap out and drive. Also height adjustable.

The second, is Bilstein B6 Damptronic shocks - these are only plug and play shocks with 100% OEM EDC integration. These are factory height shocks with much better damping, but you can use these with any springs that you can use with stock shocks - from stock to lowered. A shock can be compressed until it hits the bump stop - then it is no longer damping for you. Given that the generic B6D shocks are stock height shocks, it would be wise to use them with stock or conservatively dropped springs (like MP HAS). However, the B6D standalone shocks are basically nonexistent in the US, so if you want an actual physical Bilstein kit on your car, you're going to want the full B16 kit (or the passive version, called PSS10, if you don't require EDC integration). For the price, it's hard to beat.


Spring rates are what determine spring stiffness, not height necessarily. However, if you have a short and soft spring with stock height shocks, you're going to be hitting the bump stops a lot more from full compression, so your suspension is going to feel like crap. In my experience, Macht Schnell springs gave this sensation (in the rear). I didn't know until I changed to B16D and then to MP HAS with a much more conservative drop.

There are still only (technically) 4 options available in the US for cars with EDC if you want to keep EDC that I know of.

- B16 Damptronic

- B6 Damptronic shocks - can't get them in US

- KW DDC - same philosophy as B16D, full coil over system, but is not 100% plug and play like B16D. This kit is also considerably more expensive, but those who have it like it.

- Tractive electronic dampers - again, can't really figure out how to get them in the US. Some members have mentioned contacting DSC Sport to attain a set, but I have yet to encounter a post from someone in the US who actually acquired these from the US. Otherwise, I think this would have been the go to solution a long time ago for everyone with EDC.
Thank you very much for that summary and input, very helpful!
Appreciate 0
      12-03-2019, 09:16 PM   #6
captaindingy
Private
8
Rep
53
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: May 2018
Location: ATL

iTrader: (0)

I don't know where the idea came from that KW DDCs aren't plug and play but I've read it in several threads. I installed them in my '15 M4 and outside of having to assemble the EDC connector which takes about a minute per strut it's as plug and play as it gets.

I did a ton of research into my suspension setup and chose the KWs for the reason that many people go with the Bilstein b16 - KWs use a progressive spring, Bilstein uses linear. I don't track more than a few times a year and my car is my daily, beyond that I live in a pothole ridden hellhole. I love the KW suspension. It's world's better than stock.

In regards to coding, I opted to do CS everything as it was the newest and what I think, most advanced programming/setup available to date. But in order for it to function as it was intended I figured the rest of my hardware needs to be similar. So I installed the same sway bar setup (Civic front, comp rear) as the CS. It's great.
Appreciate 1
ntg442887.50
      12-03-2019, 09:31 PM   #7
ntg44
Colonel
ntg44's Avatar
United_States
2888
Rep
2,147
Posts

Drives: R8 4.2 Spyder
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by captaindingy View Post
I don't know where the idea came from that KW DDCs aren't plug and play but I've read it in several threads. I installed them in my '15 M4 and outside of having to assemble the EDC connector which takes about a minute per strut it's as plug and play as it gets.

I did a ton of research into my suspension setup and chose the KWs for the reason that many people go with the Bilstein b16 - KWs use a progressive spring, Bilstein uses linear. I don't track more than a few times a year and my car is my daily, beyond that I live in a pothole ridden hellhole. I love the KW suspension. It's world's better than stock.

In regards to coding, I opted to do CS everything as it was the newest and what I think, most advanced programming/setup available to date. But in order for it to function as it was intended I figured the rest of my hardware needs to be similar. So I installed the same sway bar setup (Civic front, comp rear) as the CS. It's great.

Good to know. Thanks for correcting my ignorance. I saw the photos of the wires and thought it looked hackey and sloppy compared to bilstein and tractive that just plug in. Considering the price difference for kw it just turned me off. Definitely my bad on that one.
Appreciate 0
      12-03-2019, 09:44 PM   #8
domino_z
Lieutenant Colonel
1196
Rep
1,958
Posts

Drives: F-Pace SVR
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

since you're in sydney, i know the issue you're having with ride quality on our aussie roads

i will say ride comfort in this car over broken tarmac and coarse bitumen highway has more to do with the tyre sidewall than any spring and shock combo

the f80 is a very stiff chassis with solid mounted rear subframe, and there is just no getting around that, other than taking the edge off with tyre choice

i am running 7k worth of tractive shocks, the ride quality on bumpy b and c country roads is vastly improved over stock comp hardware, but in the city over broken roads and train tracks, the clever edc compatible dampening is overwhelmed by a 30 series sidewall

im too late into ownership to bother, but if i had my time again i'd spend the money on a 19" wheel set on mp4s and put the dinan springs in set to oe heights/or min drop, and call it a day
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2019, 11:31 PM   #9
SE7EN335
Captain
327
Rep
984
Posts

Drives: 2022 M3 XDrive, 2023 IX M60
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntg44 View Post
I won't have the really technical answers, but I can chime in where I know a thing or 2, mainly Bilstein Damptronic kits.

First thing - There are 2 Bilstein Damptronic kits "available" for this platform.

The first, is Bilstein B16 Damptronic - this is a full plug & play coil over system, including shocks,springs, and all the related hardware. This kit is 100% plug and play for EDC cars - just swap out and drive. Also height adjustable.

The second, is Bilstein B6 Damptronic shocks - these are only plug and play shocks with 100% OEM EDC integration. These are factory height shocks with much better damping, but you can use these with any springs that you can use with stock shocks - from stock to lowered. A shock can be compressed until it hits the bump stop - then it is no longer damping for you. Given that the generic B6D shocks are stock height shocks, it would be wise to use them with stock or conservatively dropped springs (like MP HAS). However, the B6D standalone shocks are basically nonexistent in the US, so if you want an actual physical Bilstein kit on your car, you're going to want the full B16 kit (or the passive version, called PSS10, if you don't require EDC integration). For the price, it's hard to beat.


Spring rates are what determine spring stiffness, not height necessarily. However, if you have a short and soft spring with stock height shocks, you're going to be hitting the bump stops a lot more from full compression, so your suspension is going to feel like crap. In my experience, Macht Schnell springs gave this sensation (in the rear). I didn't know until I changed to B16D and then to MP HAS with a much more conservative drop.

There are still only (technically) 4 options available in the US for cars with EDC if you want to keep EDC that I know of.

- B16 Damptronic

- B6 Damptronic shocks - can't get them in US

- KW DDC - same philosophy as B16D, full coil over system, but is not 100% plug and play like B16D. This kit is also considerably more expensive, but those who have it like it.

- Tractive electronic dampers - again, can't really figure out how to get them in the US. Some members have mentioned contacting DSC Sport to attain a set, but I have yet to encounter a post from someone in the US who actually acquired these from the US. Otherwise, I think this would have been the go to solution a long time ago for everyone with EDC.
You can get the B6 Damptronics in US. Just need to find a UK or European vendor who will ship to US. I got mine for 1500 pounds shipped to Sydney Australia.
Appreciate 0
      12-05-2019, 11:36 PM   #10
SE7EN335
Captain
327
Rep
984
Posts

Drives: 2022 M3 XDrive, 2023 IX M60
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by domino_z View Post
since you're in sydney, i know the issue you're having with ride quality on our aussie roads

i will say ride comfort in this car over broken tarmac and coarse bitumen highway has more to do with the tyre sidewall than any spring and shock combo

the f80 is a very stiff chassis with solid mounted rear subframe, and there is just no getting around that, other than taking the edge off with tyre choice

i am running 7k worth of tractive shocks, the ride quality on bumpy b and c country roads is vastly improved over stock comp hardware, but in the city over broken roads and train tracks, the clever edc compatible dampening is overwhelmed by a 30 series sidewall

im too late into ownership to bother, but if i had my time again i'd spend the money on a 19" wheel set on mp4s and put the dinan springs in set to oe heights/or min drop, and call it a day
Yes I heard ZCP suspension with mild lowering springs and CS EDC coding works wonderfully.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2019, 06:45 AM   #11
domino_z
Lieutenant Colonel
1196
Rep
1,958
Posts

Drives: F-Pace SVR
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

Not sure why you want cs edc coding, it's stiffer than zcp in every mode

Some may think it's softer, but what you're feeling is the 35 series sidewall up front vs 30 series on comp
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2019, 03:31 PM   #12
M3SQRD
Major General
M3SQRD's Avatar
1931
Rep
5,305
Posts

Drives: E92 M3,G20 330ix,F22 240iX,F82
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mid-Atlantic

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntg44 View Post
- Tractive electronic dampers - again, can't really figure out how to get them in the US. Some members have mentioned contacting DSC Sport to attain a set, but I have yet to encounter a post from someone in the US who actually acquired these from the US. Otherwise, I think this would have been the go to solution a long time ago for everyone with EDC.
Here’s a set of Tractive dampers in the US purchased thru DSC Sport:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ractive&page=2

Another US supplier of Tractive dampers is Inertial Labs. Chris is a great guy to work with.
Appreciate 1
ntg442887.50
      12-08-2019, 08:19 PM   #13
matty088
Major
362
Rep
1,206
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ct

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by domino_z View Post
Not sure why you want cs edc coding, it's stiffer than zcp in every mode

Some may think it's softer, but what you're feeling is the 35 series sidewall up front vs 30 series on comp
I went from ZCP to cs coding and I believe the ZCP is more firm. I find the cs coding to be more Comfortable.
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2019, 11:55 PM   #14
SE7EN335
Captain
327
Rep
984
Posts

Drives: 2022 M3 XDrive, 2023 IX M60
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by domino_z View Post
Not sure why you want cs edc coding, it's stiffer than zcp in every mode

Some may think it's softer, but what you're feeling is the 35 series sidewall up front vs 30 series on comp
No the CS EDC coding makes the initial compression slower and rebound faster than ZCP EDC coding. This makes it more compliant.

I have sat in a M3 CS and it feels remarkably more comfortable than the non-ZCP because of this.
Appreciate 0
      12-09-2019, 02:48 AM   #15
domino_z
Lieutenant Colonel
1196
Rep
1,958
Posts

Drives: F-Pace SVR
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

I have the cs springs as oe fitment as my car is a zcp with sunroof

I have to take off my tractive suspension next week and go back to stock height, so I'll give the cs coding a run
Appreciate 0
      12-10-2019, 12:26 AM   #16
SE7EN335
Captain
327
Rep
984
Posts

Drives: 2022 M3 XDrive, 2023 IX M60
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by domino_z View Post
I have the cs springs as oe fitment as my car is a zcp with sunroof

I have to take off my tractive suspension next week and go back to stock height, so I'll give the cs coding a run
Oooooo how much are you selling the tractive suspension for? PM ME!
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:14 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST