M3/M4 vs. GT350

[///M3Owner]

This engine should've been in the F8x Ms...

[ixse]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

How can it be under 60k well equipped?

with the list of additional mods above the regular GT, which is already in the mid 40k well equipped....

remember the camaro zl1 is almost 60k well equipped!

People like you got a real surprise when z06 msrp was released. Wait till you see it.. Domestics can play hardball on the msrp fights. Its gonna be cheaper than you expect it to be for all its worth (kinda just the opposite of European rivals)

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by ixse

People like you got a real surprise when z06 msrp was released. Wait till you see it.. Domestics can play hardball on the msrp fights. Its gonna be cheaper than you expect it to be for all its worth (kinda just the opposite of European rivals)

Well, i built the stingray to my liking- it is 76.5k (not fully optioned). Pretty close to the m4. did the same for the mustang gt @ 44.5k. Still thinking the gt350 will be 60k+ for the options I want. We'll see soon.

[dkhm3]

Here's a Camaro ZL1 built to my liking. it is 64.5k. Think the GT350 will be much less?

I know it is auto, but I am matching it to my dct m3. I don't want to row myself, had to do it for the previous m's. Had my fill.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by smakdown61

Theres going to be so much dealer markup on this car when it comes out.......

Yeah, I wonder if they will even honor A Plan or S plan on this car. Probably not...I think it usually excludes specialty vehicles.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Here's a Camaro ZL1 built to my liking. it is 64.5k. Think the GT350 will be much less?

I know it is auto, but I am matching it to my dct m3. I don't want to row myself, had to do it for the previous m's. Had my fill.

Attachment 1119599

Personally I think it will be less. But how much I have no idea. Mid to high 50s base?

A 2013 loaded LS Boss was about $50K. Even in 2013 a loaded GT would set you back low $40s.

[ixse]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Here's a Camaro ZL1 built to my liking. it is 64.5k. Think the GT350 will be much less?

I know it is auto, but I am matching it to my dct m3. I don't want to row myself, had to do it for the previous m's. Had my fill.

Attachment 1119599

If it comes around 64k fully loaded, i think its still a great perf bargain compared to german competition. Gt350 will only come in manual i believe, so it won't be for lazy people
You just can't compare this car to M3.. Its much more perf focused and no compromises. It will eat up M3 all day at any track.. But obviously its a mustang and a ford.. So the Q is can you deal with that..

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Here's a Camaro ZL1 built to my liking. it is 64.5k. Think the GT350 will be much less?

I know it is auto, but I am matching it to my dct m3. I don't want to row myself, had to do it for the previous m's. Had my fill.

Attachment 1119599

5.9% for well qualified buyers....horrendous

I don't think there will be a gas guzzler tax, could be wrong

[attila]

I like it! Even though it does not sound like a flat plane crank V8. It sound like the regular cross plane crank. It does not sound like it have alternating firing order. Compare it the 430 scud or something form F.
Still good though.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Well, i built the stingray to my liking- it is 76.5k (not fully optioned). Pretty close to the m4. did the same for the mustang gt @ 44.5k. Still thinking the gt350 will be 60k+ for the options I want. We'll see soon.

Attachment 1119596

Nice. I think the carbon options are a bit overpriced as are the optional seats but you pretty much built the same car I did minus those two pieces.

I think my version came in at around $72k, but with supplier pricing it was a cool $66k. Not too bad for a very well optioned stingray. Wish BMW would allow some kind of supplier pricing. It would make getting a //M4 a no brainer.

Chevy offers at least $6k off the stingray with supplier pricing. My M3 build would set me back $76k.

[TunedM2C]

Mustang6G.com Q&A with Jamal Hameedi on the new Shelby GT350 Mustang

PRODUCTION:

Q: Do you expect it to be a limited production?
A: It will be about the same as a GT500.

Q: Will there be as many built as customers want?
A: …Up to a point.


WEIGHT:

Q: Is the GT350 lighter than the base GT?
A: Yea, we’re not really talking curb weight today, but there was a lot of light-weighting. Much of it went to offset all the mass that we added in terms of power, brakes, etc., but we also went beyond that too.

Q: So you’re optimistic that…
A: Yea, I’m not going to tell you. [laughs]


ENGINE:

Q: Is it dry sump?
A: It’s not dry sump.

Q: Is it direct injection?
A: No.

Q: Where do you get the extra 0.2 liter displacement
A: It’s all bore. It’s got plasma sprayed bore lining. Same lining coating as the 2013 GT500.

Q: Better breathing with flat planes?
A: It’s the rotational inertia that it reduces and also from an exhaust standpoint because you’re going side to side, you’re never disturbing the next cylinder’s firing.

Q: And mass reduction on the crank right?
A: Right.

Q: Where is the crank made?
A. It’s mostly in-house.

Q: You guys forge the crank and machine it yourselves?
A: Yea, there’s bits that are forged…

Q: This is a pretty big motor for a flat plane crank (big displacement). What have you done in terms of crankshaft damping?
A: There’s almost 30 things we did (outside the block) to compensate for it. It’s going to be a whole other story on how we did that.

Q: Challenges with emissions compliance with a flat plane crank?
A: It was harder than usual.

Q: Tell us about the variable loading exhaust valve?
A: It’s got an electric valve. So the valve, depending on what driver mode you’re in, the valve will either be open all the time (track mode) or it will open under certain conditions.

Q: Is it dependent on RPM or back pressure?
A: It’s electronically controlled so there’s algorithms in there that turn valve on in the right point in time.

Q: How much were you able to share with the 5.0L?
A: There are little common parts (i.e. things in the valve train), but it’s pretty much an all-new engine: new heads, new casting, new intake, new crank, new pistons, new rods, new halfshafts.

Q: There were rumors this engine was nicknamed Voodoo, is that the name it’s going by?
A: That was its nickname, yes.

Q: Any chance of seeing this engine in anything else?
A: Right now it’s just in this car. Which we’ve always done, just like the Trinity engine in the GT500. The GT500 was the only place you got the 5.8L.

Q: So it’s exclusive for now at least?
A: Yea.

Q: Is factory top speed software-limited?
A: No, it is drag-limited.

Q: How high does it go?
A: We’re not talking numbers today.


BENCHMARKS:

Q: What were your benchmarks for this car?
A: We had four cars that we bought. One was a 911 Carrera S — that was our main one. But we also bought a Ferrari California and that was mostly for NVH benchmarking. That’s the only flat plane crank front-engine car really out there. And then we bought a C7 corvette and also a Z28.

Q: Relative lap times compared to a Boss 302 around a race track?
A: Not really comparable. Way faster.. an order of magnitude faster.


SUSPENSION:

Q: What is the percentage of stiffness difference on the bushing between the GT350 and the standard GT?
A: Not that much. The bushings are different. The rate, the springs, the swaybars are different.

Q: Is the bushing changes primarily a handling thing or is it for NVH?
A: All for responsiveness and handling.


TRANSMISSION:

Q: Tell us a little about the transmission.
A: It’s a Tremec 3160 transmission that’s been modified fairly significantly to cope with the demands of the flat plane crank engine.

Q: What about the fly wheel and the clutch?
A: It’s got a low inertial dual mass flywheel and two 15-mm dual disc clutch.


WHEELS/BRAKES:

Q: Why black wheels?
A: Actually there’s a reason for that. The brake pads we use, they create so much dust and customers just hate it. You drive the car once with clean wheels and they are dirty after a short drive. So that’s why we got dark wheels.

Q: Why no carbon ceramic brakes?
A: I think you’ll find out later that affordability was a big part of this car.

Q: So keeping price down was a big part of that?
A: Yes. That was a priority with this car.


MISC:

Q: Is it meant to be a Boss 302 replacement or a GT500 replacement? Where is it positioned in the lineup?
A: It is its own beast. Just because the whole flat plane crank is so different than anything we’ve done and anything that’s out there.

Q: In terms of the body panels, how much does it share with the GT and how much of it is new?
A: From the A-pillar forward it’s all new. The whole rear diffuser is new. Rear quarter panels are the same.

Q: Will this be a platform for the GT500?
A: The car has got really good bones so…

Q: How much fun was it working on this?
A: It was awesome. I don’t want to stop.

[krnnerdboy]

So much awesomeness!!! This should sway m3/4 buyers that want it for track purposes.

[dkhm3]

i'm more swayed by the way it looks, it is a great looking car.

[Boss330]

This is interesting on many levels...

It used to be European cars that had high tech, exotic, high revving engines. While the US muscle cars had pushrod V8's. US muscle cars was fast in a straight line but not so good around a track.

Now, the last gen Camaro and Corvette has set stupidly fast times on the Nurburgring. And now this!!!!!!!!!!

A flat plane crank V8 Mustang which is a magnitude amount faster than the Boss302 LS on a track. A car that already beat the last gen M3 around LS. It has a NA engine that sounds awesome, uses race spec crank layout and should be well suited for track driving.

It's not just a competitor to many euro sports cars, it's probably superior in many ways!!!

I wonder what the BMW M, Porsche and Merc AMG guys are thinking about this new engine from Ford... Did we drop the ball by abandoning the NA engine?

What would be awesome would be a limited edition M3/M4 with the P65 engine in it

(P65 is the flat plane crank race version of the S65)

[backhill]

Originally Posted by gtr

I'm thinking about getting one. Seems to be lots of car for the price but hope the weight is under 3600lbs.

Current base GTs are curbed at 3517. Should have no problem breaking 3500 with everything they're touting.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Boss330

This is interesting on many levels...

It used to be European cars that had high tech, exotic, high revving engines. While the US muscle cars had pushrod V8's. US muscle cars was fast in a straight line but not so good around a track.

Now, the last gen Camaro and Corvette has set stupidly fast times on the Nurburgring. And now this!!!!!!!!!!

A flat plane crank V8 Mustang which is a magnitude amount faster than the Boss302 LS on a track. A car that already beat the last gen M3 around LS. It has a NA engine that sounds awesome, uses race spec crank layout and should be well suited for track driving.

It's not just a competitor to many euro sports cars, it's probably superior in many ways!!!

I wonder what the BMW M, Porsche and Merc AMG guys are thinking about this new engine from Ford... Did we drop the ball by abandoning the NA engine?

What would be awesome would be a limited edition M3/M4 with the P65 engine in it

(P65 is the flat plane crank race version of the S65)

The P65 is a race motor that came in a $400K car. I don't think you were gonna get anything remotely close to that in a street car.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

This is interesting on many levels...

It used to be European cars that had high tech, exotic, high revving engines. While the US muscle cars had pushrod V8's. US muscle cars was fast in a straight line but not so good around a track.

Now, the last gen Camaro and Corvette has set stupidly fast times on the Nurburgring. And now this!!!!!!!!!!

A flat plane crank V8 Mustang which is a magnitude amount faster than the Boss302 LS on a track. A car that already beat the last gen M3 around LS. It has a NA engine that sounds awesome, uses race spec crank layout and should be well suited for track driving.

It's not just a competitor to many euro sports cars, it's probably superior in many ways!!!

I wonder what the BMW M, Porsche and Merc AMG guys are thinking about this new engine from Ford... Did we drop the ball by abandoning the NA engine?

What would be awesome would be a limited edition M3/M4 with the P65 engine in it

(P65 is the flat plane crank race version of the S65)

Euro laws are forcing the manuf to go turbo - there's no going back.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Euro laws are forcing the manuf to go turbo - there's no going back.

I know, I was the one who posted all the emissions legislation, data and calculations that showed the impact of the M division on CO2 FAE (Fleet Average Emission)...

[amdmaxx]

This car is pure awesomeness..

[nicknaz]

I wonder if "over 500hp" means "a bit under 600hp"

[gthal]

I love this comment....

Q: Relative lap times compared to a Boss 302 around a race track?
A: Not really comparable. Way faster.. an order of magnitude faster.

The Boss 302 is already a very capable track car so if the GT350 is an "order of magnitude faster" it will be a beast

[ixse]

Great to hear "affordability" was a big part. I just have a hunch we are in for a surprise. Starting msrp 51500 sounds pretty delicious