Track Car Dilemma

[theox05]

So, I have a 2018 M4 ZCP. I took it to a HPDE and now I have caught that common affliction known as the track bug. However, I am terrified of taking it to the track outside of the HPDE days. My insurance covers me on HPDEs, but does not on other track days. Supplemental insurance is rather expensive and I would like to use that cash on parts/experience. Also, being a newbie, I feel as though I have a higher chance of doing something dumb and wrecking the car, thus being stuck with a massive bill at the end.

So, now I have a dilemma. Do I invest in a dedicated track car or use that money to improve the M4? Do you guys just have brass ones and say "Screw it, I cast my fortune to the fates!"?

I'm looking at 135i and e46 330i at the moment. Any other suggestions?

[SYT_Shadow]

As an avid track rat I would steer you as far away as possible from a dedicated track car.

You have just started tracking. You have much to learn young padawan.

Get some camber plates, track pads and you can track the M4 to your heart's delight. This will be much cheaper than buying a trailer and tow vehicle to drive the 'track' car there.

Plenty of companies offer track insurance dedicated to HPDE events, which is still cheaper than getting a dedicated car.

As an instructor I assure you no one is getting into accidents in the lower run groups. Once you make it to the top run group then it's a different story and that's the moment where a 'dedicated' car starts making sense

[theox05]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

As an avid track rat I would steer you as far away as possible from a dedicated track car.

You have just started tracking. You have much to learn young padawan.

Get some camber plates, track pads and you can track the M4 to your heart's delight. This will be much cheaper than buying a trailer and tow vehicle to drive the 'track' car there.

Plenty of companies offer track insurance dedicated to HPDE events, which is still cheaper than getting a dedicated car.

As an instructor I assure you no one is getting into accidents in the lower run groups. Once you make it to the top run group then it's a different story and that's the moment where a 'dedicated' car starts making sense

I hear you, let me put down a couple considerations:

1) Seems like I'm limited on what I can do to the car without falling victim to warranty voiding. I've seen some threads here where cars have been voided for "track use".

2) I have a tow vehicle already.

3) HPDE is covered, but I can't go just run the track outside of HPDE without buying supplemental insurance. Seems to run about $400 per day. That seems excessive.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by theox05

I hear you, let me put down a couple considerations:

1) Seems like I'm limited on what I can do to the car without falling victim to warranty voiding. I've seen some threads here where cars have been voided for "track use".

2) I have a tow vehicle already.

3) HPDE is covered, but I can't go just run the track outside of HPDE without buying supplemental insurance. Seems to run about $400 per day. That seems excessive.

Warranties don't get cancelled for track use as long as that track use falls into the 'HPDE' category. That means the organizer also has to consider it a HPDE and not allow timing devices, etc.
If your dealer says your warranty is voided you can go to BMWNA which will eventually uphold your warranty and spank the dealer a bit.


If you have free maintenance and you come with heat checked rotors for the second time you will no longer get free replacements. This seems pretty straight forward to me.

What kind of tracking are you doing outside of HPDE? PCA and BMWCCA have dozens of events per year that are considered HPDEs.
If you want to do W2W racing then yeah, definitely buy a track car... but I don't think that's what you're trying to do

[theox05]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Warranties don't get cancelled for track use as long as that track use falls into the 'HPDE' category. That means the organizer also has to consider it a HPDE and not allow timing devices, etc.
If your dealer says your warranty is voided you can go to BMWNA which will eventually uphold your warranty and spank the dealer a bit.


If you have free maintenance and you come with heat checked rotors for the second time you will no longer get free replacements. This seems pretty straight forward to me.

What kind of tracking are you doing outside of HPDE? PCA and BMWCCA have dozens of events per year that are considered HPDEs.
If you want to do W2W racing then yeah, definitely buy a track car... but I don't think that's what you're trying to do

Thanks, this makes sense. I suppose my only problem is that we only have 2 track days a year for my local club, would like to do more than that. I will check to see how many PCA has.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by theox05

Thanks, this makes sense. I suppose my only problem is that we only have 2 track days a year for my local club, would like to do more than that. I will check to see how many PCA has.

You'll see that most events are considered HPDEs because if they are not then no warranty covers them, even the track-specific warranties. So few people want to go to events where you'll trash your car and get nothing

[CRRobert]

Check into NASA, they have HPDE also, with that and BMWCCA, that can get me to over 6 track weekends this year.

[Mandi90TT]

If you are in CO, as your location says, you need to check out NASA Rocky Mountain. Plenty of HPDE sessions throughout the summer, probably fare more than you can afford.

Also, a note: I'd really be surprised if your insurance actually does cover HPDE. Almost all insurance companies, including USAA (which I have) have a clause in their policies that excludes anything that happens on a track surface.

[theox05]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

If you are in CO, as your location says, you need to check out NASA Rocky Mountain. Plenty of HPDE sessions throughout the summer, probably fare more than you can afford.

Also, a note: I'd really be surprised if your insurance actually does cover HPDE. Almost all insurance companies, including USAA (which I have) have a clause in their policies that excludes anything that happens on a track surface.

I have an email from Allstate that says they cover it. Needless to say, that email is permanently saved in my inbox lol. They basically just said they don't cover timed events, which is fine with me.

[Mandi90TT]

I'd read that email again. If they say specifically 'yes we cover HPDE events on a track surface' you are fine.

If, however, they don't say what they do cover, but they say they don't cover timed events, you will likely lose in a catastrophic claim.

You may want to read this thread

or this thread

or this thread

or this thread

or many others with a google search of 'does allstate cover hpde'

[CRRobert]

Yep, I joined NASA Rocky Mountain, they have first 2 day event at Pueblo April 12/13. I am signed up for that if I can heal from my rotator cuff surgery by then, otherwise High Plains in May with BMWCCA will be my first.

[GasBurnlife(landapanda)]

Originally Posted by theox05

Thanks, this makes sense. I suppose my only problem is that we only have 2 track days a year for my local club, would like to do more than that. I will check to see how many PCA has.

Wondering which car insurance do you carry? I have Geico and it would not cover HPDE events. I also called Progressive and they had the same answer.

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

If you are in CO, as your location says, you need to check out NASA Rocky Mountain. Plenty of HPDE sessions throughout the summer, probably fare more than you can afford.

Also, a note: I'd really be surprised if your insurance actually does cover HPDE. Almost all insurance companies, including USAA (which I have) have a clause in their policies that excludes anything that happens on a track surface.

I cannot seem to locate the exclusions for my USAA policy. I've reviewed the policy itself and the binder with no luck. Where did you find this information?

[theox05]

Originally Posted by CRRobert

Yep, I joined NASA Rocky Mountain, they have first 2 day event at Pueblo April 12/13. I am signed up for that if I can heal from my rotator cuff surgery by then, otherwise High Plains in May with BMWCCA will be my first.

I'll be at High Plains as well.

As for insurance, I carry Allstate. I emailed again, being as specific as possible, to confirm my HPDE coverage. I was pretty specific the first time, but that was a year ago.

Honestly, if I have to get supplemental insurance each time, that kinda makes the decision for me. I'll get a dedicated track car. If I'm covered, I'll stick with the M4.

[Continental02]

I have no affiliation and have never used them before, but I looked into this and it seemed like a good option.

https://opentrack.com/

If you literally just started tracking, I second some of the opinions here and would say definitely don't go buy a dedicated track car. You have a perfectly capable car. Spend a few thousand if you really need the peace of mind and get the annual insurance. Much cheaper in the long run if you eventually lose interest or don't end up tracking as much.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

I cannot seem to locate the exclusions for my USAA policy. I've reviewed the policy itself and the binder with no luck. Where did you find this information?

Mine has the following, under exclusions:

9. Loss to any vehicle while it is being operated in, or in practice for, any driving contest or challenge.

They will use that to deny HPDE, on the premise that it is practice for a driving contest/challenge. And they have more, and better, lawyers than you do.

[Mandi90TT]

I'll be at the first NASA event here in the RM region, at PMP, on April 13/14th, in the black M4. Feel free to stop by and say hi.

Here's the full schedule, for reference:

Utah Motorsports Campus
March 29th-30th

Pueblo Motorsports Park
April 13th - 14th

La Junta Raceway
May 18th-19th

Hallet Motor Racing Circuit
June 8th-9th

Pikes Peak International Raceway
June 29th-30th

High Plains Raceway
July 20th-21st

Utah Motorsports Campus (With Enduro)
August 2nd-4th

Pueblo Motorsports Park
August 24th-25th

NASA Nationals at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course
September 18th-22nd

High Plains Raceway
October 12th-13th

[bracer]

My general rule of thumb is not to track anything I can't afford to walk away from... I'm always amazed with people tracking cars they can barely afford the payments on. Remember just because you are under control the guy next to you might not be, and don't expect them or their insurance to cover an accident on track. (You have 100% liability for your car and any damage no matter what happened and who is at fault)

HPDE insurance is cheap compared to the price of the car btw, and I would not count on your daily insurance to covering a loss. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

I would also say most accidents happen in the fastest groups. People driving above their ability, etc...

As far as dedicated track cars. A Miata is as fast as the cars you have listed, cost 1/10 as much to operate and nothing on the car is over about $1500 to replace.

[Mandi90TT]

The above is all true.

On the flip side, in ~8 years of tracking cars with NASA, I have seen only 1 serious accident, someone balled up a newish 350Z into the wall on turn 10 at PMP.

I generally purchase track insurance for the first event of the year, for anytime I go to a new track I haven't been to before, and if the weather conditions look iffy for the weekend. Otherwise, I go without insurance. My M is paid for, by the way.

[MaynardZed]

I’ve always used track day insurance when taking my expensive street cars to the track. Gives me piece of mind on the few days I take those cars. Usually I’m in my race car though, which of course theres no insurance for racing.

True recent story: A couple of track buddies of mine went down to INDE for a little test and tune. One of them is a member there. There would only a few cars on this huge track at any one time, so no one would of even have thought of getting track day insurance. Probably couldn’t get it anyway since it’s not a real track day with a club.

Anyway, they had only been there maybe an hour or so and my one friend pulled onto the track in front of of my other buddy that was on a hot lap. Disrupted his concentration enough on a very fast tricky section that he lost control and put his brand spanking new Porsche 991.2 GT3 RS into the tire wall!

You might think maybe the Porsche driver was driving over his head or something. Well here’s the thing, he’s probably the best driver I’ve ever known and a 14 time NASA National TT champion. It’s not a matter of if, but when will you have an incident.

Porsche driver was not hurt. Took two hours to inch the RS into an enclosed trailer. Insurance will not cover, nor will the driver try to defraud insurance and make up a story to try to get it covered. Current estimates are north of $120K to repair the GT3 RS.

[bracer]

I've lost count on the number of incidents I've seen. (Maybe I don't run with the right crowds!) Some smaller, some complete totals. Most were "street" cars.

I've had one major myself, but it was a tube frame racecar. It was cheaper to fix after than probably an easy off in the M3. M3 is paid for and out of warranty. If I break it I fix it.

[RowanBuds]

Originally Posted by theox05

I hear you, let me put down a couple considerations:

1) Seems like I'm limited on what I can do to the car without falling victim to warranty voiding. I've seen some threads here where cars have been voided for "track use".

2) I have a tow vehicle already.

3) HPDE is covered, but I can't go just run the track outside of HPDE without buying supplemental insurance. Seems to run about $400 per day. That seems excessive.

I see you said allstate explicitly agreed to cover this - is that your broker or the underwriter putting that in writing? If the broker misinterprets the standard inclusions and endorsements, that doesn't necessarily put allstate on the hook for a loss.

If this is being put in writing by the underwriting staff at allstate, you should talk with your broker and that underwriter to see how much commission you can score, because their new business bonus for the next year will be absurd. We'll all be moving to allstate through your broker before you could blink.

These being covered as part of standard auto insurance is becoming more and more rare - almost unheard of lately.

In just the past 3 weeks I've had a few conversations with my broker trying to find a complete annual auto+hpde insurance policy and there is nothing we can locate that will cover what a hpde includes with full disclosures on my end. If I can avoid 500 a weekend towards lockton and combine that coverage in with my usual auto policy, I would love to do that.