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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 76 32.34%
Trump Trump-umphant. 78 33.19%
Inclusive 17 7.23%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 68 28.94%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 9 3.83%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 235. You may not vote on this poll

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      Today, 01:05 PM   #6007
detroitm2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
"...one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine."

That doesn't say who initiated the call or who thought the trip to Ukraine was good/necessary. You could read that either way - the larger point being why is the President's personal attorney having these conversations and meetings when it would appear that official diplomacy would be much more appropriate when addressing things like government attempts to address corruption.
Indeed it doesn't. Thats part of the mystery of all this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
So, "special envoy" is meaningless if it isn't announced. No protections, even if it is announced, and there is no indication you're speaking for the President or anyone more important than yourself (a private citizen) without the announcement.

Was Zelensky supposed to guess whether Giuliani was a special envoy and speaking for the President?

Special envoys do not have to be announced. In some situations they are used as a covert position for investigative purposes.

If the President of the US says "I'm going to send a guy", you can be sure Zelensky knew he had some kind of envoy status with the President. Again, this does not need to be officially announced in any kind of capacity. The President is within his full right to utilize private citizens in this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
As was already pointed out - Rudy isn't employed by the government, full stop, so "transient, occasional or incidental" is irrelevant.
Again, what does this have to do with being an employee? My guess is you both just skimmed both of the documents I posted, because it makes it pretty clear there is no requirement to be a "government employee" to act as a special envoy to the President. Full stop.
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      Today, 01:06 PM   #6008
SumBMWGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
How would Zelensky know to bring up Rudy?

Did Trump actually name him a special envoy? As Trump's personal lawyer he holds absolutely zero standing or authority vs. any other private US citizen.
Directly from the transcript:

Quote:
For that purpose, I just recalled our ambassador from United States and he will be replaced by a very competent and very experienced ambassador who will work hard on making sure that our two nations are getting closer. I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and your confidence and have personal relations with you so we can cooperate even more so. I will personally tell you that one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine.
He doesn't need to "appoint" someone as a personal envoy, they just are. It doesn't matter if they hold any kind of power or authority. They are also offered zero diplomatic protections.

EDIT: further reading on this: https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cg...enn_law_review

Excerpt:
Quote:
An ambassador or other public minister is an officer of the
United States, and holds an office under the Government of
the United States. An agent sent out to a foreign country to
investigate, to ascertain and report facts, or to negotiate a
treaty, does not hold an office; but is engaged ir a temporary employment. An office is a continuing position, and
though the incumbent be changed, the duties remain. But an
employment which is transient, occasional or incidental, can
in no proper sense be termed an office.
Not a transcript, a call summary. As the actual transcript is still under lock and key as a classified piece of information. If that call was so perfect, how about the ACTUAL transcript be released.
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      Today, 01:10 PM   #6009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Not a transcript, a call summary. As the actual transcript is still under lock and key as a classified piece of information. If that call was so perfect, how about the ACTUAL transcript be released.
Is that the hill you're willing to die on?
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      Today, 01:12 PM   #6010
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Not pretty much. Exactly.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rty/661544002/
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      Today, 01:25 PM   #6011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
Not a transcript, a call summary. As the actual transcript is still under lock and key as a classified piece of information. If that call was so perfect, how about the ACTUAL transcript be released.
What is your source that says there is an actual classified verbatem transcript?
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      Today, 01:34 PM   #6012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Please actually read the documents, instead of assuming you know what you're talking about. No one said anything about being "employed"
Excerpt:
Quote:
An ambassador or other public minister is an officer of the
United States, and holds an office under the Government of
the United States. An agent sent out to a foreign country to
investigate, to ascertain and report facts, or to negotiate a
treaty, does not hold an office; but is engaged ir a temporary employment. An office is a continuing position, and
though the incumbent be changed, the duties remain. But an
employment which is transient, occasional or incidental, can
in no proper sense be termed an office.

Your excerpt does. And no he is not.

Rudy is being used in this capacity to not have to answer to anybody in government except Trump. For most things he can claim attorney client privilege or executive privilege.
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      Today, 01:44 PM   #6013
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Fox News Op-Ed piece by Judge Napolitano makes case for removal of president. Cites ample evidence.


https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trum...rew-napolitano

Darn liberal rag.
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      Today, 01:53 PM   #6014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
Excerpt:
Quote:
An ambassador or other public minister is an officer of the
United States, and holds an office under the Government of
the United States. An agent sent out to a foreign country to
investigate, to ascertain and report facts, or to negotiate a
treaty, does not hold an office; but is engaged ir a temporary employment. An office is a continuing position, and
though the incumbent be changed, the duties remain. But an
employment which is transient, occasional or incidental, can
in no proper sense be termed an office.

Your excerpt does. And no he is not.

Rudy is being used in this capacity to not have to answer to anybody in government except Trump. For most things he can claim attorney client privilege or executive privilege.
I don't think you understand what that paragraph means. There is nothing there that says an envoy needs to be "employed by the US government".
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      Today, 02:03 PM   #6015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Totally understand and agree. It's not illegal. There's a lot of things the POTUS can do with his/her power that are not strictly illegal, however it doesn't mean I like it! Bottom line I don't trust Trump's ability to pick the "right person for the job" as a substitute for career diplomats and foreign service personnel. I think our state department and diplomats are better trained, educated, and positioned to work through complex geo-political situations than anyone Trump (or Obama, or any other president) would hand pick to cowboy a special mission. I'm also not buying the "Rudy was there to root out corruption" line, but hey, i'm happy to change my mind as soon as I hear from Rudy, Bolton, Pompeo, Pence, and others in a forum that is not a cable TV entertainment channel.


So Rudy works for free? Follow the money. Who pays Rudy for his jaunts to Ukraine?
Dennis Rodman

<drops mic>


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