Single turbo F80 build, what's needed to support 800 whp?

[Vassilakis]

Hey,

I'm planning to do a single turbo build on a F80.
I currently have a ESS supercharged 2017 R8 V10+ that I've built the last 5 years, so I'm very familiar with that platform, not jet too much in depth with the S55.
Trying to do some research to see what's needed for around a 800 whp build. I will use the car as a fun street car to play around and burn some rubber with, to bully my other friends with supercars and also to do some track days with.

What turbo, turbo size and A/R would you suggest for such a build for try to keep the lag as low as possible and don't run out of turbo?

I'm of course planning to do the crank hub, den build the engine with pistons and rods.

How much torque/power can the DCT hold up with a xHP tune? When is upgraded clutches needed?

Motiv ReFlex for flex fuel E85, LPFP and boost control with internal W/G if I've understand right(?)

MHD as platform as I want to use map switch, do logging and flash custom maps. Is it possible to get one map with lower boost, one with full boost and one with boost by gear for better traction on MHD?

What LPFP to go with? Do I need upgraded fuel lines and a kit with return line?

At what power level do I need to change the HPFP?

Is it enough with EU5 or other updated injectors for DI or do I need PI?

Charge cooler, front and side mounted IC and oil cooler from do88.

No meth as I want it simple and live in Sweden where it's not crazy hot.

Is there something else needed for a reliable and simple build?
Any help is appreciated.

Best regards,
Alex

[DeTh]

Sounds like you're already decently knowledgeable.
For around 800 wheel, you'll see a lot of people with Precision/ other brands, they tend to stay in the 6Xmm range.

DCT can hold around 680wtq with xHp Stage 3. Im pretty close to this number now. Upgraded clutches (Deka, SSP) would be needed past that.

Reflex is only needed for port injection. To make 800 wheel, you can maybe do it DI but you will be right at the limit. PI is recommended. It does not control the LPFP. There is some flex-fuel integration with Reflex as well.

I'm not familiar with MHD, but BM3 you can do essentially that. You can cap the boost in settings, and turn down torque values on a gear-by-gear basis.

Precision Raceworks makes the LPFPs for this platform. 800whp is achievable on their Stage 3 Brushless, but you may want to consider a Stage 3.5-4 with an external Walboro pump for more headroom. You do not need upgraded fuel lines.

If you are PI, you can run the stock HPFP. If you are DI, you will need to upgrade the HPFP around 700whp. Nostrums 240bar HPFPs are capable of 800+ whp on full E85.
EU5 is not capable of 800whp DI only. You can maybe blend down from E85 and get more headroom with the Nostrum Stage 3 injectors (730whp on full E85).

Reliable at 800whp is hard. You're running right at trans limits, and you wont be able to do digs/low rolls without risking the stock axles. Hope this helps

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by DeTh

Sounds like you're already decently knowledgeable.
For around 800 wheel, you'll see a lot of people with Precision/ other brands, they tend to stay in the 6Xmm range.

DCT can hold around 680wtq with xHp Stage 3. Im pretty close to this number now. Upgraded clutches (Deka, SSP) would be needed past that.

Reflex is only needed for port injection. To make 800 wheel, you can maybe do it DI but you will be right at the limit. PI is recommended. It does not control the LPFP. There is some flex-fuel integration with Reflex as well.

I'm not familiar with MHD, but BM3 you can do essentially that. You can cap the boost in settings, and turn down torque values on a gear-by-gear basis.

Precision Raceworks makes the LPFPs for this platform. 800whp is achievable on their Stage 3 Brushless, but you may want to consider a Stage 3.5-4 with an external Walboro pump for more headroom. You do not need upgraded fuel lines.

If you are PI, you can run the stock HPFP. If you are DI, you will need to upgrade the HPFP around 700whp. Nostrums 240bar HPFPs are capable of 800+ whp on full E85.
EU5 is not capable of 800whp DI only. You can maybe blend down from E85 and get more headroom with the Nostrum Stage 3 injectors (730whp on full E85).

Reliable at 800whp is hard. You're running right at trans limits, and you wont be able to do digs/low rolls without risking the stock axles. Hope this helps

Thanks for the answer!

I'm looking at the 4N kit with EFR8474 (600-850whp) or EFR9274 (700-900whp).

I think I'm going to start with xHP stage 3 and stock clutches, and tune the car to keep the torque under the limit. If I need to update them I'll do that later on.

I've seen ReFlex integrates good with MHD for flex fuel, PI and boost control with internal W/G integrated with the stock system. Also to run the secondary fuel pump instead of a Hobbs switch. Will reach out to them to get more information about this.
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1779824
My understanding is that BM3 add MHD over all offers the same functions with some small differences.

I've been looking at Precision Raceworks. Stage 4 is with upgraded lines. Probably for the best while at it so I don't run out of fueling in later on.

Then it sounds like LPFP stage 4, PI and stock HPFP is a good combination and will leave me some headroom on the fueling side.

Yes, the reliability always suffers when you chasing more and more power, that's why I want the engine built to give me some piece of mind regarding that. If needed, upgraded clutches and axles later on if them fails. Always good to know the weakest link is not the most expensive lol.

[b_w.]

talk to Mike and he can walk you through what you need. I have seen 750whp on the 8474 so I think you are going to want to step up a size for 800. Talk to your tuner and they can provide suggestions on what tuning software and fuel upgrades. IMO sticking with DI is going to be more reliable and simpler but might be tough to get there. Dorch says their kit can get to 800whp on e85 but injectors are maxed.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by b_w.

talk to Mike and he can walk you through what you need. I have seen 750whp on the 8474 so I think you are going to want to step up a size for 800. Talk to your tuner and they can provide suggestions on what tuning software and fuel upgrades. IMO sticking with DI is going to be more reliable and simpler but might be tough to get there. Dorch says their kit can get to 800whp on e85 but injectors are maxed.

I've sent him an email with some questions about a week ago but no reply yet. Maybe I'll get one in some days.

I'm not sure what tuner to go with yet, so I'm on the hunt for that as well.

Yes that's my understanding. If stage 4 LPFP and Dorch lift kit or Nostrums HPFP with stage 3 injectors will be enough for around 800whp maybe that's the way to go instead of PI.

[DeTh]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

I've sent him an email with some questions about a week ago but no reply yet. Maybe I'll get one in some days.

I'm not sure what tuner to go with yet, so I'm on the hunt for that as well.

Yes that's my understanding. If stage 4 LPFP and Dorch lift kit or Nostrums HPFP with stage 3 injectors will be enough for around 800whp maybe that's the way to go instead of PI.

If I had to do my whole tuning process again, I would stay DI like I am now and switch to EcuTek and tune with Bend. They are one of the only tuners that I have heard absolutely nothing bad about. I was with CaryJordan before, he blew my motor. I am currently tuning with RK Tunes, his response time is EGREGIOUS. Im just not willing to swallow the $ pill of switching to EcuTek + another tuning cost.

It is cheaper to do the nostrum HPFPs all in. Labor for Dorch is insane. If you're building the motor then do Dorch at same time. If not, then do Nostrum. You can make 800whp stock motor by the way, I've seen it done.

Also if you plan to track this, you will have to turn the power way down but Im sure you knew that already

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by DeTh

If I had to do my whole tuning process again, I would stay DI like I am now and switch to EcuTek and tune with Bend. They are one of the only tuners that I have heard absolutely nothing bad about. I was with CaryJordan before, he blew my motor. I am currently tuning with RK Tunes, his response time is EGREGIOUS. Im just not willing to swallow the $ pill of switching to EcuTek + another tuning cost.

It is cheaper to do the nostrum HPFPs all in. Labor for Dorch is insane. If you're building the motor then do Dorch at same time. If not, then do Nostrum. You can make 800whp stock motor by the way, I've seen it done.

Also if you plan to track this, you will have to turn the power way down but Im sure you knew that already

Why would you go EcuTek over BM3 or MHD?
I’ve seen more recommend Bend in other threads. Will look into that when it’s time. Thanks, to grenade a engine or to wait too long for new revisions are not that funny.

Yeah, I saw the instructions for Dorch, a lot of work. I’m planning to build the motor anyway. Is Dorch the choise over Nostrum if we don’t take labor in consideration? Am planning to do the work myself.

For the track, do you have traction in mind as the reason to turn the power down or is it something else you were thinking about? Like cooling or something else?

[DeTh]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

Why would you go EcuTek over BM3 or MHD?
I’ve seen more recommend Bend in other threads. Will look into that when it’s time. Thanks, to grenade a engine or to wait too long for new revisions are not that funny.

Yeah, I saw the instructions for Dorch, a lot of work. I’m planning to build the motor anyway. Is Dorch the choise over Nostrum if we don’t take labor in consideration? Am planning to do the work myself.

For the track, do you have traction in mind as the reason to turn the power down or is it something else you were thinking about? Like cooling or something else?

Antonio beat me to it.
Bend will not tune upgraded turbo cars (or EU5 cars I believe) on any platform but Ecutek. Supposedly it has more customization available on the tuner side and better support for EU5's. I'm sure there might be other reasons why it's better but I never looked more into it.

Dorch v Nostrum is a toss up.
Looking at it mechanically, you're running more fuel through the stock HPFPs with the Dorch. I think of it similar to overclocking. You'll shorten the life of the OEM HPFPs, but to what extent who knows. Nostrum you're running HPFPs that are designed for that fuel volume.
That being said, I haven't really ever heard of failures with either one. I was on the phone with Nostrum a month ago or so and they had a refurbished set of 240bar HPFPs from their shop car for like 2/3rd of the original price. Might be worth giving them a call to see if they still have it.

If you're building motor and doing all these mods at the same time, the shop shouldn't charge you any extra (maybe .5hr) to do a Dorch install. With the motor in the car I believe it's about $1k in labor to install. This brings it pretty close to the price of the Nostrum

If you're going to wait to build the motor at a shop but do the rest of the build first by yourself, the Nostrum setup will be significantly easier. Shouldn't be more than 1-2 hours of labor at a shop, or you can do it yourself like me like you said😁

It might be worth calling both of them to see if you can stack both Dorch and Nostrum for the most fuel possible DI only. I believe they both have a specific disclaimer on their website saying they aren't "designed" to work together but Im sure someone has done it. Can't hurt to ask!

As for the track, I more meant it as traction based. But the more boost and power you're making, the hotter the car will get, which will affect cooling accordingly.

Pics from my install!

[NoorSinghJohal]

Dorch hpfp labor overlaps a bunch with the crankhub job. I had both done at the same time and the hpfp was only an hour extra labor.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by Antoniogaj

The reasoning people go with EcuTek is because Bend only tunes upgraded turbo setups on EcuTek exclusively. You will not be disappointed with Bend. Like DeTh said, I have yet to see anyone have issues with them, including myself.

I see. Before I looked at an older comparison between MHD, BM3 and EcuTek. I see that EcuTek now also have logging and flashing through the phone.

I saw they also integrate well with Motiv ReFlex+, so I guess you will also have the option to run boost by gear?

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by DeTh

Antonio beat me to it.
Bend will not tune upgraded turbo cars (or EU5 cars I believe) on any platform but Ecutek. Supposedly it has more customization available on the tuner side and better support for EU5's. I'm sure there might be other reasons why it's better but I never looked more into it.

Dorch v Nostrum is a toss up.
Looking at it mechanically, you're running more fuel through the stock HPFPs with the Dorch. I think of it similar to overclocking. You'll shorten the life of the OEM HPFPs, but to what extent who knows. Nostrum you're running HPFPs that are designed for that fuel volume.
That being said, I haven't really ever heard of failures with either one. I was on the phone with Nostrum a month ago or so and they had a refurbished set of 240bar HPFPs from their shop car for like 2/3rd of the original price. Might be worth giving them a call to see if they still have it.

If you're building motor and doing all these mods at the same time, the shop shouldn't charge you any extra (maybe .5hr) to do a Dorch install. With the motor in the car I believe it's about $1k in labor to install. This brings it pretty close to the price of the Nostrum

If you're going to wait to build the motor at a shop but do the rest of the build first by yourself, the Nostrum setup will be significantly easier. Shouldn't be more than 1-2 hours of labor at a shop, or you can do it yourself like me like you said��

It might be worth calling both of them to see if you can stack both Dorch and Nostrum for the most fuel possible DI only. I believe they both have a specific disclaimer on their website saying they aren't "designed" to work together but Im sure someone has done it. Can't hurt to ask!

As for the track, I more meant it as traction based. But the more boost and power you're making, the hotter the car will get, which will affect cooling accordingly.

Pics from my install!

I will build the engine straight away as I'm doing the crank hub and the single turbo install. So the Dorch lift kit wont be a big job while everything is apart. However, the Nostrum will be a easier job in the future if something happens and I need to take it apart. They also have a lifetime warranty.

They claim that they now can confirm that the Dorch and Nostrum works together.
"We have confirmed that our pump kits with a part number of H086-1511 do fit and function with the Dorch lift kit. We did not confirm the limits or performance of this combo, we cannot guarantee perfect functionality or any additional performance gains. We would not be able to provide tuning support with this combo."

Wonder how much more fuel they will deliver stacked together with the stage 3 injectors compared to just Nostrum.

[DeezBluBallz]

If I'm not mistaken, they don't do single bank tuning through Bend, via ECUtek.
Ended up keeping my BM3

I did the Vargas single kit w/6466, PR LPFP, Dortch HPFP, EU5 Injectors w/Bend Calibration Filter Kit, XHP trans tune, crank hub and all the other supporting mods. Still being tuned. But should be in the 700's Wheel.

LPFP,HPFP,EU5,XHP,crank hub and all the other supporting mods is the recipe, all factory controlled.

[Schemxr]

for 800whp,

upgraded lpfp with secondary pump with fuel regulator set to 72psi for secondary pump, dme will control primary pump

eu5 bmw oem injectors

port injection via motiv reflex

stock hpfp’s

if you decide to use external wastegate, you will need it to be controlled via a boost controller or a mac valve which can be controlled via motiv, if you use a internal wastegate, j believe you may be able to use stock wastage actuater with car’s dme. vargas sells a single turbo kit that uses the stock wastegate actuator(pricey)

stock trans, xhp stage 3 can hold 1000nm’s on stock dct.

with stock motor, torque will be limited to 650wtq for safety reasons

suggest going with a 1.01 or higher turbine housing since any lower will have too much torque down low for stock rods.



second option (no port)

still upgrade lpfp
dorch lift kit for hpfp’s (will have to ship out to dorch wait time is not ideal)
eu5 oem injectors
no port
no reflex needed as fueling will all be controlled by dme, reflex will be needed however if you choose to use external wastage to control boost

highley recommend getting tuned by abperformance.co very responsive and will help you with any diagnostics you may have

[Schemxr]

Originally Posted by DeTh

Sounds like you're already decently knowledgeable.
For around 800 wheel, you'll see a lot of people with Precision/ other brands, they tend to stay in the 6Xmm range.

DCT can hold around 680wtq with xHp Stage 3. Im pretty close to this number now. Upgraded clutches (Deka, SSP) would be needed past that.

Reflex is only needed for port injection. To make 800 wheel, you can maybe do it DI but you will be right at the limit. PI is recommended. It does not control the LPFP. There is some flex-fuel integration with Reflex as well.

I'm not familiar with MHD, but BM3 you can do essentially that. You can cap the boost in settings, and turn down torque values on a gear-by-gear basis.

Precision Raceworks makes the LPFPs for this platform. 800whp is achievable on their Stage 3 Brushless, but you may want to consider a Stage 3.5-4 with an external Walboro pump for more headroom. You do not need upgraded fuel lines.

If you are PI, you can run the stock HPFP. If you are DI, you will need to upgrade the HPFP around 700whp. Nostrums 240bar HPFPs are capable of 800+ whp on full E85.
EU5 is not capable of 800whp DI only. You can maybe blend down from E85 and get more headroom with the Nostrum Stage 3 injectors (730whp on full E85).

Reliable at 800whp is hard. You're running right at trans limits, and you wont be able to do digs/low rolls without risking the stock axles. Hope this helps

reflex does control lpfp if you have a secondary pump. you can attach the hobbs switch to one of the aux ports on motiv.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by DeezBluBallz

If I'm not mistaken, they don't do single bank tuning through Bend, via ECUtek.
Ended up keeping my BM3

I did the Vargas single kit w/6466, PR LPFP, Dortch HPFP, EU5 Injectors w/Bend Calibration Filter Kit, XHP trans tune, crank hub and all the other supporting mods. Still being tuned. But should be in the 700's Wheel.

LPFP,HPFP,EU5,XHP,crank hub and all the other supporting mods is the recipe, all factory controlled.

Yeah that's true. I've been reading something about that.
Wonder why they haven't sorted that. Many of the single turbo kits are unfortunately single bank.

I've been eyeballing the Vargas kit as well, it looks great and nice t be able to keep the carbon brace with a top mount. Do you have any clips of the sound? I've searched but couldn't find any.
Are you built or stock engine? Pump or e85? Do you have more headroom in fueling with that setup? What stage on PR LPFP? Still some turbo left?
Vargas said I easily can get 800-900whp with that turbo.

Pros and cons with top mounted vs bottom mounted for me.
Top mounted looks cool and I think you get more turbo sound. Might be harder to hide from the cops and more visible for our annual car inspection i Sweden.

Bottom mounted is a bit easier to hide and make it look more stock ish.

Is there any other differences between top vs bottom mount? Something that makes one to choose before the other?

Thanks!

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by Schemxr

for 800whp,

upgraded lpfp with secondary pump with fuel regulator set to 72psi for secondary pump, dme will control primary pump

eu5 bmw oem injectors

port injection via motiv reflex

stock hpfp’s

if you decide to use external wastegate, you will need it to be controlled via a boost controller or a mac valve which can be controlled via motiv, if you use a internal wastegate, j believe you may be able to use stock wastage actuater with car’s dme. vargas sells a single turbo kit that uses the stock wastegate actuator(pricey)

stock trans, xhp stage 3 can hold 1000nm’s on stock dct.

with stock motor, torque will be limited to 650wtq for safety reasons

suggest going with a 1.01 or higher turbine housing since any lower will have too much torque down low for stock rods.


second option (no port)

still upgrade lpfp
dorch lift kit for hpfp’s (will have to ship out to dorch wait time is not ideal)
eu5 oem injectors
no port
no reflex needed as fueling will all be controlled by dme, reflex will be needed however if you choose to use external wastage to control boost

highley recommend getting tuned by abperformance.co very responsive and will help you with any diagnostics you may have

Thank you! I plan to do pistons and rods to be safe and don't risk to blow the engine to easy lol.
Second option. With internal W/G or with Vargas kit I can still control the boost with the cars DME without Motiv ReFlex? For map switch and boost by gear. That sounds great to keep it simple for reliability. Also use MHD flex fuel sensor, or if it's possible to go with EcuTek with single bank.

[b_w.]

confirmed Ecutec is not capable of single bank. Bottom mount makes plenty of turbo noise. Cant imagine top mount improves on it.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by b_w.

confirmed Ecutec is not capable of single bank. Bottom mount makes plenty of turbo noise. Cant imagine top mount improves on it.

Thanks mate!
No that's true, it's such a short pipe and open filter anyway.

[Schemxr]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

Thank you! I plan to do pistons and rods to be safe and don't risk to blow the engine to easy lol.
Second option. With internal W/G or with Vargas kit I can still control the boost with the cars DME without Motiv ReFlex? For map switch and boost by gear. That sounds great to keep it simple for reliability. Also use MHD flex fuel sensor, or if it's possible to go with EcuTek with single bank.

you can’t do boost by gear on motiv yet with external wastegate. vargas kit has the way to connect the oem wastegate actuater to the wastagte in the manifold to allow the car’s dme to do everything from boost by gear, launch control etc. no need tk have a spring in the wastagte

[Schemxr]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

Thank you! I plan to do pistons and rods to be safe and don't risk to blow the engine to easy lol.
Second option. With internal W/G or with Vargas kit I can still control the boost with the cars DME without Motiv ReFlex? For map switch and boost by gear. That sounds great to keep it simple for reliability. Also use MHD flex fuel sensor, or if it's possible to go with EcuTek with single bank.

i would just go with bm3, they allow flex fuel with motiv relfex so if you have an ethanol sensor on your car and it plugs into the motiv, the motiv will communicate with the dme. for example, my tune rn is a flex tune single turbo using motiv and an external wastagte system.
ethanol sensor connects to motiv which applies proper port fueling and boost via mac valve based on the ethanol content, then the bm3 flash tune will be a flex tune so it can adjust the timings etc based on the ethanol percentage provided by motiv to the dme. you can view ethanol percentage on your dash by the rpm’s indicator.

it’s actually really simple. also bootmode allows single bank, or oem configuration and it is super simple to setup.

dm me on instagram and i can show you my setup and give you options on what you might want to go with. @surajf82 on IG

[DeezBluBallz]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

Yeah that's true. I've been reading something about that.
Wonder why they haven't sorted that. Many of the single turbo kits are unfortunately single bank.

I've been eyeballing the Vargas kit as well, it looks great and nice t be able to keep the carbon brace with a top mount. Do you have any clips of the sound? I've searched but couldn't find any.
Are you built or stock engine? Pump or e85? Do you have more headroom in fueling with that setup? What stage on PR LPFP? Still some turbo left?
Vargas said I easily can get 800-900whp with that turbo.

Pros and cons with top mounted vs bottom mounted for me.
Top mounted looks cool and I think you get more turbo sound. Might be harder to hide from the cops and more visible for our annual car inspection i Sweden.

Bottom mounted is a bit easier to hide and make it look more stock ish.

Is there any other differences between top vs bottom mount? Something that makes one to choose before the other?

Thanks!

I don't, it's still at the shop. PJT and my shop are working on the flex fuel tune. Do you have E85 in Sweden? Hopefully done in a week, then I can post something. Sounds like bottom mount would be the best for you(inspections). Either top mount or bottom, will get you to your goals. I'm a stock engine w/all the supporting mods. My goals are 700-750 wheel horse, and I was going to keep torque below 650. I did the 6466 w/1.05AR

[DeezBluBallz]

Here are some photos.