Single turbo F80 build, what's needed to support 800 whp?

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by Schemxr

you can’t do boost by gear on motiv yet with external wastegate. vargas kit has the way to connect the oem wastegate actuater to the wastagte in the manifold to allow the car’s dme to do everything from boost by gear, launch control etc. no need tk have a spring in the wastagte

4N have a kit with BorgWarner EFR with internal wastgate, that also keeps the OEM actuator. That sounds like a good option for simplicity.

Originally Posted by Schemxr

i would just go with bm3, they allow flex fuel with motiv relfex so if you have an ethanol sensor on your car and it plugs into the motiv, the motiv will communicate with the dme. for example, my tune rn is a flex tune single turbo using motiv and an external wastagte system.
ethanol sensor connects to motiv which applies proper port fueling and boost via mac valve based on the ethanol content, then the bm3 flash tune will be a flex tune so it can adjust the timings etc based on the ethanol percentage provided by motiv to the dme. you can view ethanol percentage on your dash by the rpm’s indicator.

it’s actually really simple. also bootmode allows single bank, or oem configuration and it is super simple to setup.

dm me on instagram and i can show you my setup and give you options on what you might want to go with. @surajf82 on IG

Both BM3 and MHD have flex fuel kit that's plug and play on the fuel hat on the fuel tank that integrates to the DME.
If I go with that, 4N kit with internal w/g, PR LPFP updated HPFP and injectors I don't need PI and can ditch the Motiv ReFlex and run everything through the cars DME with MHD or BM3. They both offer basically the same options.

Great, I'll do that. Thanks!

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by DeezBluBallz

I don't, it's still at the shop. PJT and my shop are working on the flex fuel tune. Do you have E85 in Sweden? Hopefully done in a week, then I can post something. Sounds like bottom mount would be the best for you(inspections). Either top mount or bottom, will get you to your goals. I'm a stock engine w/all the supporting mods. My goals are 700-750 wheel horse, and I was going to keep torque below 650. I did the 6466 w/1.05AR

I see, hope you get it done soon!
Yes, we have E85 in a lot of stations, that's why flex fuel will work great here.
Yeah, bottom I'll probably go for the 4N bottom mount kit.

Originally Posted by DeezBluBallz

Here are some photos.

That looks really nice! Top mount is sexy!

[Wanted_M]

Originally Posted by DeezBluBallz

Here are some photos.

Are you able to run a catch can?

[DeezBluBallz]

Originally Posted by Wanted_M

Are you able to run a catch can?

Yes, on the opposite side.

[Wanted_M]

Originally Posted by DeezBluBallz

Yes, on the opposite side.

Thanks, looks bad ass

[BadBoostedBMWM3]

Originally Posted by DeTh

If I had to do my whole tuning process again, I would stay DI like I am now and switch to EcuTek and tune with Bend. They are one of the only tuners that I have heard absolutely nothing bad about. I was with CaryJordan before, he blew my motor. I am currently tuning with RK Tunes, his response time is EGREGIOUS. Im just not willing to swallow the $ pill of switching to EcuTek + another tuning cost.

It is cheaper to do the nostrum HPFPs all in. Labor for Dorch is insane. If you're building the motor then do Dorch at same time. If not, then do Nostrum. You can make 800whp stock motor by the way, I've seen it done.

Also if you plan to track this, you will have to turn the power way down but Im sure you knew that already

Truth… I just did it with only DI and GC Max’s.

[Vassilakis]

I’ve talked to Nostrum and asked if they know how much more fueling you will get with their HPFP and stage 3 injectors paired with a Dorch Lift Kit.
He was guessing it gives around 20% more fuel than with “just” their HPFP and injectors. He know three cars running that setup and they did one in house. That car made 889whp on pump E85 (E70-E77). That car also had cams and intake with a built engine.

For what power levels do you need to upgrade the camshaft and maybe valve springs?
Is it needed for around 850whp?

[f80msynn007]

I to am going the single turbo route. I suggest you pick your tunner first before you pick your turbo kit. I went with bend and took there recommendations which was port injection with id injectors supplied by them motiv reflex supplied by them a precision lpfp 3.5 or higher. You dont need to change the hpfp or the injectors. As for the turbo kit I reached out to Mike at 4N asked if he would add the second bank he said ya for an extra $150 which I did. Bend also said to either run a garret g35-1050 or precision 6466 I went with the garret they did say not to run the borg Werner The EFR is a great turbo but needs a well balanced, engineered installation with good wastegate, which usually doesn't happen in this range of vehicles. Definitely no internal gate or electronic gate. I plan running Ecutek as they recommended. MHD+ does offer single bank as of now it does not work with motiv reflex. My opinion pick the tuner first then go from there.

[astris]

Originally Posted by f80msynn007

I to am going the single turbo route. I suggest you pick your tunner first before you pick your turbo kit. I went with bend and took there recommendations which was port injection with id injectors supplied by them motiv reflex supplied by them a precision lpfp 3.5 or higher. You dont need to change the hpfp or the injectors. As for the turbo kit I reached out to Mike at 4N asked if he would add the second bank he said ya for an extra $150 which I did. Bend also said to either run a garret g35-1050 or precision 6466 I went with the garret they did say not to run the borg Werner The EFR is a great turbo but needs a well balanced, engineered installation with good wastegate, which usually doesn't happen in this range of vehicles. Definitely no internal gate or electronic gate. I plan running Ecutek as they recommended. MHD+ does offer single bank as of now it does not work with motiv reflex. My opinion pick the tuner first then go from there.

Nice. I was wondering if 4n would do that. Do you have a built motor?

[f80msynn007]

At the moment I do not. I do plan on building it later down the road.

[astris]

Originally Posted by f80msynn007

At the moment I do not. I do plan on building it later down the road.

What are your power goals on the stock motor?

I always thought it would be fun to do a DI only, single turbo 4n, dual bank, Bend tuned setup. I’m already at 700whp/660wtq (stock motor) so I don’t think there would be much point for me to swap other that it’s something different.

[f80msynn007]

My power goals are 700-800. But if I’m not mistaken chetrickerman is pushing around 900 on a stock block. I to also thought that I was gonna go DI and was about to pull the trigger on a dorch hpfp and nostrum injectors but after talking to Ian and his partner I was told other wise. That’s why I think it’s important to choose a tuner first that way you aren’t wasting money on parts you might not need.

[astris]

Originally Posted by f80msynn007

My power goals are 700-800. But if I’m not mistaken chetrickerman is pushing around 900 on a stock block. I to also thought that I was gonna go DI and was about to pull the trigger on a dorch hpfp and nostrum injectors but after talking to Ian and his partner I was told other wise. That’s why I think it’s important to choose a tuner first that way you aren’t wasting money on parts you might not need.

I’m a bit surprised they leaned toward the PI route for you. I was the first flex, with all DI upgrades, car Bend did. Idea was to stay away from PI to keep things simple and as originally designed. Car has been flawless from day one. Maybe one day I’ll go the 4N, all DI route.

I’m sure you’re going to love the setup with Bend tune.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by astris

I’m a bit surprised they leaned toward the PI route for you. I was the first flex, with all DI upgrades, car Bend did. Idea was to stay away from PI to keep things simple and as originally designed. Car has been flawless from day one. Maybe one day I’ll go the 4N, all DI route.

I’m sure you’re going to love the setup with Bend tune.

Ian at Bend said DI with PR stage 3 or higher LPFP and Dorch lift kit + EU5, Motiv ReFlex for boost control and PI if you want a bit more power.

PI for more power over Dorch lift kit + Nostrum HPFP and Nostrum stage 3 injectors.
"We tuned the in house car... if you want the additional power potential from stage 3's there are some driveability and other considerations in stability; it also will take more time and cost more money. If you assume that, then we will tune the stage 3's."

[wheela]

Originally Posted by f80msynn007

I to am going the single turbo route. I suggest you pick your tunner first before you pick your turbo kit. I went with bend and took there recommendations which was port injection with id injectors supplied by them motiv reflex supplied by them a precision lpfp 3.5 or higher. You dont need to change the hpfp or the injectors. As for the turbo kit I reached out to Mike at 4N asked if he would add the second bank he said ya for an extra $150 which I did. Bend also said to either run a garret g35-1050 or precision 6466 I went with the garret they did say not to run the borg Werner The EFR is a great turbo but needs a well balanced, engineered installation with good wastegate, which usually doesn't happen in this range of vehicles. Definitely no internal gate or electronic gate. I plan running Ecutek as they recommended. MHD+ does offer single bank as of now it does not work with motiv reflex. My opinion pick the tuner first then go from there.

I'm suprised by their comments about EFR turbos. Many people on this platform and other platforms run them without boost control issues. I've seen people mention this, but in specifically searching for examples I've only come across 1 car that had issue, it was an n54 and I believe it was Motiv working on an EFR kit with a two-piece machined manifold for that platform. I'm not sure why they were having issues, perhaps poor wastegate placement or angle of entry into the turbine housing? I don't know, but that was the only car I've seen with issues, and numerous others without issue. Chet Rickerman on here is running a big EFR and I don't believe he's seen boost control issues with EFR's either, and he tunes multiple platforms. I hope he'll chime in with his thoughts on EFR's.

Edit: Correction, it wasn't motiv, it was CES:

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ngle-Turbo-Kit

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by wheela

I'm suprised by their comments about EFR turbos. Many people on this platform and other platforms run them without boost control issues. I've seen people mention this, but in specifically searching for examples I've only come across 1 car that had issue, it was an n54 and I believe it was Motiv working on an EFR kit with a two-piece machined manifold for that platform. I'm not sure why they were having issues, perhaps poor wastegate placement or angle of entry into the turbine housing? I don't know, but that was the only car I've seen with issues, and numerous others without issue. Chet Rickerman on here is running a big EFR and I don't believe he's seen boost control issues with EFR's either, and he tunes multiple platforms. I hope he'll chime in with his thoughts on EFR's.

Edit: Correction, it wasn't motiv, it was CES:

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2285583-CES-Motorsport-BMW-335-N54-twinscroll-steedspeed-BW-EFR-Single-Turbo-Kit

Here’s what Ian at Bend said about the EFR, it just seems to be the ones with internal w/g.

“The 4n kit is ok if you get the kit with: widebands in exhaust manifold (so you have the choice of best calibration method at time of tuning), dual wastegate upgrade/straight gate or similar for boost control that will hold 230kpa flat or lower (roughly 20psig). EFR turbo is ok but definitely not with internal egate; we have tried this many times and it does not work correctly at all. Different calibrators have different definitions of "works well" and I'll leave my comment at that. In short, we will not tune EFR + internal E gate.”

[wheela]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

Here’s what Ian at Bend said about the EFR, it just seems to be the ones with internal w/g.

“The 4n kit is ok if you get the kit with: widebands in exhaust manifold (so you have the choice of best calibration method at time of tuning), dual wastegate upgrade/straight gate or similar for boost control that will hold 230kpa flat or lower (roughly 20psig). EFR turbo is ok but definitely not with internal egate; we have tried this many times and it does not work correctly at all. Different calibrators have different definitions of "works well" and I'll leave my comment at that. In short, we will not tune EFR + internal E gate.”

Wow, even more intersting. Pages 25-32 of the EFR technical brief (attached) makes it clear that Borg Warner went to great lengths to come up with a twin scroll internal wastegate solution to work well for high power applications. It's hard to imagine a world-wide top tier turbocharger manufacturer would put a wastegate on their flag ship turbo which doesn't work, much less leave it like that for > 10 years? Not directing this at you, you're just the messenger. He obviously has his reasons for not wanting to tune internally gated EFR's. Maybe they are more finicky to tune and he doesn't want to put in the extra time. But to claim their internal gate doesn't work coreectly at all, or to insinuate that tuners satisfied with the boost control they get from them must not have a good definition of what "works well" sounds like a bs answer to me.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by wheela

Wow, even more intersting. Pages 25-32 of the EFR technical brief (attached) makes it clear that Borg Warner went to great lengths to come up with a twin scroll internal wastegate solution to work well for high power applications. It's hard to imagine a world-wide top tier turbocharger manufacturer would put a wastegate on their flag ship turbo which doesn't work, much less leave it like that for > 10 years? Not directing this at you, you're just the messenger. He obviously has his reasons for not wanting to tune internally gated EFR's. Maybe they are more finicky to tune and he doesn't want to put in the extra time. But to claim their internal gate doesn't work coreectly at all, or to insinuate that tuners satisfied with the boost control they get from them must not have a good definition of what "works well" sounds like a bs answer to me.

Today I talked with Mike on 4N about this and Bend’s take on it. Mike said that he know Bend is really great on the big HP build S55 and probably prefer the route with external gate as it’s the setup they’ve got most experience with.

As with all there’s pros and cons.
Mike have been running his M4 GTS track car with the EFR internal gate really hard for long track sessions and been testing a lot without any problems, even with a Samsonas sequential gearbox.
The pros are simplicity with boost controlled by the DME. No vacuum lines for wastegates that can get problems with heat near the manifold.
He can do wideband in the manifold for dual bank tuning, but with hard use and track days the sensors will fail faster and is harder to replace. Also the cables are more exposed to heat from the manifold.

His recommendation for 1000 crank hp and my purpose was;

EFR9280 internal w/g. Full boost at around 4000 rpm. (The EFR8474 are good for around 900 hp and have full boost at 3800 rpm).
Either stay DI with Dorch LK with EU5 (might be at the limit for the power, especially with E85. Or PI 950cc and have plenty of fueling cheaper than Dorch.
Motiv ReFlex for PI and flex fuel.
PR LPFP stage 3 brushless or stage 4.
Single bank with MHD.

For my power level he recommended Manley pistons and Manley Turbo Tuff rods as the CP-Carrillo was a bit overkill.

[b_w.]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

Today I talked with Mike on 4N about this and Bend’s take on it. Mike said that he know Bend is really great on the big HP build S55 and probably prefer the route with external gate as it’s the setup they’ve got most experience with.

As with all there’s pros and cons.
Mike have been running his M4 GTS track car with the EFR internal gate really hard for long track sessions and been testing a lot without any problems, even with a Samsonas sequential gearbox.
The pros are simplicity with boost controlled by the DME. No vacuum lines for wastegates that can get problems with heat near the manifold.
He can do wideband in the manifold for dual bank tuning, but with hard use and track days the sensors will fail faster and is harder to replace. Also the cables are more exposed to heat from the manifold.

His recommendation for 1000 crank hp and my purpose was;

EFR9280 internal w/g. Full boost at around 4000 rpm. (The EFR8474 are good for around 900 hp and have full boost at 3800 rpm).
Either stay DI with Dorch LK with EU5 (might be at the limit for the power, especially with E85. Or PI 950cc and have plenty of fueling cheaper than Dorch.
Motiv ReFlex for PI and flex fuel.
PR LPFP stage 3 brushless or stage 4.
Single bank with MHD.

For my power level he recommended Manley pistons and Manley Turbo Tuff rods as the CP-Carrillo was a bit overkill.

My o2's are in the downpipe but I cant see how you are changing an o2 sensor mounted to the collector on his kit without pulling the turbo which means lifting the engine. It is super tight and I dont see how you could get in there. There are a bunch of guys successfully running single turbo track cars on MHD with it setup the way Mike does it. This is my first season with the setup but it works great and Motiv has been top notch too. Is Ecutek better than MHD...probably, but MHD works.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by b_w.

My o2's are in the downpipe but I cant see how you are changing an o2 sensor mounted to the collector on his kit without pulling the turbo which means lifting the engine. It is super tight and I dont see how you could get in there. There are a bunch of guys successfully running single turbo track cars on MHD with it setup the way Mike does it. This is my first season with the setup but it works great and Motiv has been top notch too. Is Ecutek better than MHD...probably, but MHD works.

Yeah, that’s a good point.
I’ll just go with MHD, and if EcuTec will support single bank in the future it’s always possible to swap platform.

[RAT3DM]

Originally Posted by Vassilakis

I’ve talked to Nostrum and asked if they know how much more fueling you will get with their HPFP and stage 3 injectors paired with a Dorch Lift Kit.
He was guessing it gives around 20% more fuel than with “just” their HPFP and injectors. He know three cars running that setup and they did one in house. That car made 889whp on pump E85 (E70-E77). That car also had cams and intake with a built engine.

For what power levels do you need to upgrade the camshaft and maybe valve springs?
Is it needed for around 850whp?

I'm running a built motor with Schrick cams and the Nostrom Stage 3 injectors with the Dorch Lift Kit and PR Stg 3 brushless and have plenty of fuel for my smaller upgraded Pure HF's. I didn't want to be limited with fueling and wanted to keep it completely DI. At this point I'm turbo limited. I'm sure I could throw on a big single and make 1000whp so your 800whp goal is very achievable.

Also cams aren't needed to make power, and tbh give the tuners more trouble than positives, hence why most of them recommend to keep the stock ones, but they will help carry the power to redline with little drop off which is nice.

[Vassilakis]

Originally Posted by RAT3DM

I'm running a built motor with Schrick cams and the Nostrom Stage 3 injectors with the Dorch Lift Kit and PR Stg 3 brushless and have plenty of fuel for my smaller upgraded Pure HF's. I didn't want to be limited with fueling and wanted to keep it completely DI. At this point I'm turbo limited. I'm sure I could throw on a big single and make 1000whp so your 800whp goal is very achievable.

Also cams aren't needed to make power, and tbh give the tuners more trouble than positives, hence why most of them recommend to keep the stock ones, but they will help carry the power to redline with little drop off which is nice.

Thanks! Are you planning on bigger turbos, considering how much money you've spent on building the motor? Or did you just want to go overkill to play it safe?
How much power are you running now?
Who did your tuning and on what platform?
Stock cams with upgraded valve springs might be enough instead of upgraded cams?