BMW M4 - Sport Auto test ride and interview with Albert Biermann

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

They are not! They will use the DCT from the M5/M6 which has longer ratios than the E9x DCT. Not longer ratios than the M5/M6 DCT...

In the South African magazine article in the other thread, it is mentioned that the F8X will use the same DCT gear ratios as the F10 M5/6 but with a shorter final drive for shorter overall gearing.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=915648

However, the spacing between gears is much greater on the new DCT (only the 6th to 5th ratio is smaller). I guess with the broad power plateau of the S55, the tight ratios are not as beneficial as they were with the S65's peaky power curve. On the other hand, the larger spacing between the gears implies a greater RPM drop with each shift, sort of defeats the point of having 7 gears IMO.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

In your translation you said DCT from the M5/6 with longer ratios for better fuel consumption . That sure implies it has taller ratios than the M5/6 . Should be easy enough to figure out though once the final specs are released .

I have corrected my translation (that was why I apologised in advance for bad translations or missed meanings )

It clearly states in the interview that it will get the M5/M6 DCT and that the longer gearing of that improves fuel consumption.

My bad on the translation/english text.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In the South African magazine article in the other thread, it is mentioned that the F8X will use the same DCT gear ratios as the F10 M5/6 but with a shorter final drive for shorter overall gearing.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=915648

Which falls in line with the German article. I have rephrased my translation so that it now gives a more correct meaning of the German text and not least a better English text.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Looks like in the SA CAR article they say it's the same box with the same ratios as the M5/6 with a Shorter final drive ratio ! It will have a higher torque to the wheel vs weight ratio than the M5/6 !!!

I have rephrased my translation so that it now actually says what I thought it said all along... I re read and saw that it wasn't accurate and could be misunderstood

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Boss330

EPS has traditionally been installed in main stream cars so far and it hasn't been a performance choice yet. Now that tech has evolved and they are able to get better steering feel it should be better suited to a enthusiast car.

Remember that EPS doesn't replace the steering linkages, it's just an assistance. Just like hydraulic power steering is.

I imported a RHD S2K EPS set up and retrofitted it to my (now sold) KA8 Acura Legend a few years back. Quite well versed on them , although I was quite surprised at how simple it was to retrofit.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In the South African magazine article in the other thread, it is mentioned that the F8X will use the same DCT gear ratios as the F10 M5/6 but with a shorter final drive for shorter overall gearing.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=915648

However, the spacing between gears is much greater on the new DCT (only the 6th to 5th ratio is smaller). I guess with the broad power plateau of the S55, the tight ratios are not as beneficial as they were with the S65's peaky power curve. On the other hand, the larger spacing between the gears implies a greater RPM drop with each shift, sort of defeats the point of having 7 gears IMO.

Understand what you mean, but with a 6 speed the spacing would have to be even larger to achieve the same 1st gear ratio for take off and tall top gear for good fuel economy.

With a 7 speed you can have better spacing between gears for both acceleration and fuel economy, right?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Porsche has done a great job it seems with their electro mechanical steering in the 991, so hopefully BMW will get a similarly good system from ZF as well.

So in that view I don't see his comments on electro mechanic steering as idiotic at all...

I've got my fingers crossed. EMS has tremendous potential once they figure it out.

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

I imported a RHD S2K EPS set up and retrofitted it to my (now sold) KA8 Acura Legend a few years back. Quite well versed on them , although I was quite surprised at how simple it was to retrofit.

[RussRamz]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

3kg increase in weight is not a legitimate negative to hydraulic over electric.

Yes it is if the electric steering is equal to or superior to the hydraulic system. It is my understanding the M3/M4 will use the same electric steering system in the new Porsche 911 GT3 which has received rave reviews.

What is it about the electric steering system in the new M3/M4 and for that matter, the 911 GT3 you don't like?

[Kayani_1]

If one is so worried about an insurance one would not buy a 75K luxury sports cars. Just like all the other overly expensive parts the insurance will cover that too.

That is my problem that they kept the development cost down instead of developing a proper hydraulic setup.

Originally Posted by Leo88

So the car would have cost 10-15k more, and the first asshole that hit your rear at a stop would cause some thousands $ damage due to CF bumper!

The electric steering was used to keep development cost down, it's so simple don't focus on the 3 kg saved, that's a collateral thing.

[Kayani_1]

Why skimp give us the hood and bumpers too.

So far the EPS setups that I have tried all sucked. So I am judging based on the sample already put out by BMW.

The best EPS on the market seems to be by Porsche in GT3 even that one took criticism for not being as good as the hydraulic one in last GT3. The other setup that got praise and was better then the one in 911 C4 was Stingray Corvette.

I would be happy to see for myself that BMW has proven me wrong. I hope you guys are right.

Originally Posted by Boss330

The M4 HAS a CF trunk

And maybe we should try the steering and how it feels before judging it as useless...

If you read the other story from the Australian mag you will get some more insight from Biermann on their thoughts on the steering

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Why skimp give us the hood and bumpers too.

So far the EPS setups that I have tried all sucked. So I am judging based on the sample already put out by BMW.

The best EPS on the market seems to be by Porsche in GT3 even that one took criticism for not being as good as the hydraulic one in last GT3. The other setup that got praise and was better then the one in 911 C4 was Stingray Corvette.

I would be happy to see for myself that BMW has proven me wrong. I hope you guys are right.

Sure, more CF parts would be even better

I just mentioned that the M4 allready has a CF trunk since you mentioned that as one of the things they should have done. The M3 doesn't have one though.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

3kg increase in weight is not a legitimate negative to hydraulic over electric.

Originally Posted by RussRamz

Yes it is if the electric steering is equal to or superior to the hydraulic system. It is my understanding the M3/M4 will use the same electric steering system in the new Porsche 911 GT3 which has received rave reviews.

What is it about the electric steering system in the new M3/M4 and for that matter, the 911 GT3 you don't like?

Exactly, if EPS is equal to or even superior, then 3kg is a legitimate contribution.

The point is that it is assumed that the EPS will be worse/useless. It's a dangerous assumption to make, especially if it is not only assumed but stated as a fact...

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Exactly, if EPS is equal to or even superior, then 3kg is a legitimate contribution.

The point is that it is assumed that the EPS will be worse/useless. It's a dangerous assumption to make, especially if it is not only assumed but stated as a fact...

no one said it would be worse

once and for all, what I said was that 3kg loss in weight (which im not even sure how you quantify because it doesn't seem like they even designed a hydraulic system in the first place, so how do you quantify weight loss vs a system that was never designed) was not a significant factor in the decision to go electric vs hydraulic.

its not like they said, well, we were gonna go hydraulic but we can save 3kg using electric so lets do that. they did it for financial reasons, and that's fine. I just don't understand even bringing up the weight loss as a factor in the decision because IMO it was basically irrelevant towards deciding to go electric vs hydraulic.

I am sure they will dial in the electric system well, and I will almost certainly buy an m3 unless audi brings the rs3 and it has a manual.

Ive driven a new 991 with the electric steering and IMO its better in every way than the 997, including the steering. So I am in no way anti-EPS

[pkimM3r]

Pretty sure bpm will have a tune for the electric steering just like it does for the current gen.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Because torque is torque and all of a sudden you don't give a rats ass about RPM because you now have useable power delivery in every situation. There is nothing like Boost!

Huh? Another unusable torque comment lol. Get your revs in the powerband and downshift.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Understand what you mean, but with a 6 speed the spacing would have to be even larger to achieve the same 1st gear ratio for take off and tall top gear for good fuel economy.

With a 7 speed you can have better spacing between gears for both acceleration and fuel economy, right?

For good fuel economy, all you need is a tall top gear. Quickly shift through the lower gears while accelerating and cruise on the tall top gear. That is what they seen to have have done with the new DCT; the spacing between 6th and 7th is much geater on the new DCT (76%) compared to the old one (83%) .

Considering that the current E9X is already barely able to keep traction in first gear with its "measly" 295lb-ft of torque, that the new DCT has a shorter first gear, that the F8X FD will likely also be shorter (the F10 M5 has the same FD as the E9X DCT M3 and the article quotes that the M3/4 will a shorter FD than the M5/6) and that the S55 will have significantly more engine torque, the DCT's first gear will be pretty much useless on the F8X.

Unless you want to

Hopefully they will have selected a more optimal and perfromance oriented gear spacing for the newly designed 6MT .

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

no one said it would be worse

once and for all, what I said was that 3kg loss in weight (which im not even sure how you quantify because it doesn't seem like they even designed a hydraulic system in the first place, so how do you quantify weight loss vs a system that was never designed) was not a significant factor in the decision to go electric vs hydraulic.

its not like they said, well, we were gonna go hydraulic but we can save 3kg using electric so lets do that. they did it for financial reasons, and that's fine. I just don't understand even bringing up the weight loss as a factor in the decision because IMO it was basically irrelevant towards deciding to go electric vs hydraulic.

I am sure they will dial in the electric system well, and I will almost certainly buy an m3 unless audi brings the rs3 and it has a manual.

Ive driven a new 991 with the electric steering and IMO its better in every way than the 997, including the steering. So I am in no way anti-EPS

Thanks for the clarification (I believe it is others that have made comments that indicate that the EPS will suck...)

It should be fairly easy for them to quantify the difference between a EPS and hydraulic system. They know what components are needed for both systems and also know the weight of components for both systems, so a quantification should be easy peasy The degree of detail in engineering is immense and they will easily know the difference in weight between two such systems. And, today cars and systems are computer designed. No need to actually build a system and weigh the actual components...

But in this circumstance I believe it's just as simple as making a list of necessary components, with known weight, needed for EPS vs Hydraulic:

Hydraulic system:
-Hydraulic pump
-Steering rack with hydraulic circuitry
-Hydraulic reservoir (with fluid)
-Hydraulic lines/hoses

EPS:
-EPS unit attached to steering linkage (like steering column)

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

For good fuel economy, all you need is a tall top gear. Quickly shift through the lower gears while accelerating and cruise on the tall top gear. That is what they seen to have have done with the new DCT; the spacing between 6th and 7th is much geater on the new DCT (76%) compared to the old one (83%) .

Considering that the current E9X is already barely able to keep traction in first gear with its "measly" 295lb-ft of torque, that the new DCT has a shorter first gear, that the F8X FD will likely also be shorter (the F10 M5 has the same FD as the E9X DCT M3 and the article quotes that the M3/4 will a shorter FD than the M5/6) and that the S55 will have significantly more engine torque, the DCT's first gear will be pretty much useless on the F8X.

Unless you want to

Hopefully they will have selected a more optimal and perfromance oriented gear spacing for the newly designed 6MT .

The Sport Auto article doesn't say anything about a lower first gear. It merely says the DCT will be from the M5/M6, giving a larger gear spacing. The SA article on the other thread verifies that the gear ratios will be retained from the M5/M6, but with a lower final drive ratio.

6MT is from the 1M, modified and with reduced weight (12kg leaner than the E9x MT).

Good fuel economy means having a optimum gear for more than just highway speeds. At least where I live with large variations in altitude and the majority of roads being narrow two lane roads with lots of curvature...

[jbockrd]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Sure, more CF parts would be even better

I just mentioned that the M4 allready has a CF trunk since you mentioned that as one of the things they should have done. The M3 doesn't have one though.

Do they just paint over the CF on the trunk?

[ZGM3]

Originally Posted by RussRamz

It is my understanding the M3/M4 will use the same electric steering system in the new Porsche 911 GT3 which has received rave reviews.

This is the first that I heard about BMW using the same system as the GT3. It is my understanding that the software is much more important that the type of unit installed, so lets hope that BMW figures this out. Plus the GT3 benefits greatly from the rear wheel steering which the BMW won't have.

I certainly hope that the electric steering system in the new M3/4 will be great but I will have to hold my breath until there are some reviews from people that don't work for BMW, and I get to drive it myself.

It will all come down to the software and for some reason it doesn't seem that easy to reproduce the feel of the hydraulic assist.
Look at Porsche: the GT3 has the same mechanics as the 911 but the GT3 has much better steering feel and response (rear steering??). Many people that own the current 911 are hoping that there is a software update so that their car's steering numbness is removed and brings it closer to the GT3 but it hasn't happened yet.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by jbockrd

Do they just paint over the CF on the trunk?

Yes, just like other cars with CF parts/bodies.