2015 Mustang benchmarked against outgoing M3. Already trailing the upcoming M4?

[Ashley Schaeffer BMW]

LMAO at this thread. I wonder if Audi has entitled children over on their forums too.

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Flat plane crank allows higher maximum revs and provides sharper response. A high revving V8, along with flat plane crank sound, in a lighter Mustang with a proper suspension. Count me in for one amazing foundation for a track car.

Why would a flat plane crank allow higher rpm, assuming the same mass for connecting rods and pistons?

Ferrari V8s have small strokes and small displacements (so small & light pistons). Some (458) even have titanium connecting rods. That's why they turn 9000 rpm, not because they have a flat plane crankshaft.

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by JAM3S

LMAO at this thread. I wonder if Audi has entitled children over on their forums too.

It is pretty funny. This thread is a lot like watching people fight at Target on Black Friday over a TV.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

Why would a flat plane crank allow higher rpm, assuming the same mass for connecting rods and pistons?

Ferrari V8s have high rpm limits because they have small strokes, small displacements (so small & light pistons) and titanium connecting rods, not because they have a flat plane crankshaft.

A flat plane has less mass and a lower moment of inertia, providing higher rpm and more rapid acceleration. Engine can simply rev easier.

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

A flat plane has less mass and a lower moment of inertia, providing higher rpm and more rapid acceleration. Engine can simply rev easier.

I agree that a flat plane crank will rev easier and more quickly, like a lightweight flywheel. So it will have less parasitic loss for sure.

But I don't think it inherently provides for higher rpm limits because I think in the bottom end, that limit tends to be defined by stroke length and mass of piston+con rod.

Pat

[IB M]

Agree new Mustang is badass. Less weight, same great power, good looks and IRS. My only beef is Chinese made transmission which petty as it sounds could be a deal breaker for me.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

I agree that a flat plane crank will rev easier and more quickly, like a lightweight flywheel. So it will have less parasitic loss for sure.

But I don't think it inherently provides for higher rpm limits because I think in the bottom end, that limit tends to be defined by stroke length and mass of piston+con rod.

Pat

LS V8 with a flat plane crank. Revs over 9,000.

http://ls1tech.com/articles/lingenfe...g-to-9000-rpm/

[chicochico]

Originally Posted by Dave2011M3

No Ecoboost motor for the S197 Mustang, shows you know absolutely nothing about Mustangs...question whether you even drove one...

My bad. I never paid any attention to the V6 because if I got one it would have been the GT or the Boss. I actually took out a GT in 2010/11 and had a blast in it. But not the rental car fleet version I just had. From the second I got in I knew I couldn't do it. I actually took the car back and asked for something else to drive (also it was a convert in a colder climate so that was a factor).

We will see how the new one rides, but it will have to be a huge jump in my books. Before last week I would have been touting it as well, now I'm skeptical.

It looks great though and I expect it will be leaps ahead of the outgoing model. I just don't think I can consider it an option anymore though. Oh well...

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

LS V8 with a flat plane crank. Revs over 9,000.

http://ls1tech.com/articles/lingenfe...g-to-9000-rpm/

Yes, that's an awesome engine. I'll note that to get it to rev to 9000 rpm, they also appear to have de-stroked the original LS1 (stroke altered from 3.622 to 3.350) and have custom internals.

Sounds great though.

[conradb]

Want to know the beauty of the new Mustang? It's basically the same Coyote 5.0 that has all the amazing Ford Racing parts for dirt cheap out there. You can slap on the titanium rods, springs, etc, and get a 9k rpm race beast for relatively little.

What does BMW have? A $1250 power pack that adds 20HP to your 3.0L TT engine?

[pruettfan]

I think a lot of folks misunderstand how car companies do benchmarking. They will pick a couple of cars and closely examine the characteristics, HP, torque, handling, braking and features. That does not mean that the car they are building will outperform or even match the performance of every car they benchmark against. I am sure the Mustang will be a good performing car, I can't imagine it will have the same level of quality because they are in two very different price categories. I have 182,000 miles on my E90 and most folks that ride in it can't believe even half that many miles. I guarantee you can't find and 06 Mustang with 182k on it that has held up as good as my car.

[conradb]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

I think a lot of folks misunderstand how car companies do benchmarking. They will pick a couple of cars and closely examine the characteristics, HP, torque, handling, braking and features. That does not mean that the car they are building will outperform or even match the performance of every car they benchmark against. I am sure the Mustang will be a good performing car, I can't imagine it will have the same level of quality because they are in two very different price categories. I have 182,000 miles on my E90 and most folks that ride in it can't believe even half that many miles. I guarantee you can't find and 06 Mustang with 182k on it that has held up as good as my car.

Uh, I can guarantee you I could. Like any car, it's how well the owner takes car of it. Why do you think there are so many collectors that have pristine 50 y/o mustangs?

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

LS V8 with a flat plane crank. Revs over 9,000.

http://ls1tech.com/articles/lingenfe...g-to-9000-rpm/

Originally Posted by catpat8000

Yes, that's an awesome engine. I'll note that to get it to rev to 9000 rpm, they also appear to have de-stroked the original LS1 (stroke altered from 3.622 to 3.350) and have custom internals.

It is also interesting that flat plane crank engines suffer much more from secondary balance problems than do cross plane crank engines, and said secondary balance problems are exacerbated by higher rpm and heavier components. So they don't smooth out as they rev, they get worse. This is probably why we've never seen cross plane cranks on American V8s and why Lingenfelter abandoned his LS1 flat plane engine project.

[ryan970]

looks like a buff BRZ

[BimmaDrew]

Overall, I'm shockingly impressed with Ford and their new Mustang. I like the Mustangs in general, but never enough to buy one (or even test drive one actually). But now I think it is definitely worth a hard look/drive.

One thing I'd like to add (I didn't read all the pages in this thread so I'm not sure it was already brought up), is that the (current) Mustang GT 5.0L has better MPGs than the current M3 (17/26 vs 14/20).

I know many M3 owners don't really care about fuel economy, but I can't afford multiple cars and when I get a new car in a year or 2, I will be using it as a daily driver just as all my other cars have been. Those miles really add up and eat a hole in my pocket after a while.

Also, I won't be surprised if the 2.3L EcoBoost will have similar or slightly better figures than the 435i.

However, I doubt the 5.0L will be better than the new M4's fuel economy. Of course, that could all change when they start introducting the "special editions" that will invevitably be added to the lineup a few years down the road...so we'll see (but I doubt it).

My overall point is, I am impressed with the Ford's ability to make such an impressive engine (power-wise) while still keeping it fairly economical on fuel too.

[bates1325]

it looks like a Honda accord

[Kayani_1]

Wow is that your yard stick for judging a car. Maybe you should take a look at the newer F3x series cars. They are more of an evolutionary approach then this Mustang any day. The Mustangs actually looks more revolutionary then the newer 3 series. The Porsche has looked the same since you and I were in diapers.

People can be so bias against American cars is just amazing. They make the most ridiculous excuses.

Originally Posted by onehungevo

The looks aren't different enough than the current model for me. I'm out!!

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

It is also interesting that flat plane crank engines suffer much more from secondary balance problems than do cross plane crank engines, and said secondary balance problems are exacerbated by higher rpm and heavier components. So they don't smooth out as they rev, they get worse. This is probably why we've never seen cross plane cranks on American V8s and why Lingenfelter abandoned his LS1 flat plane engine project.

Last post on flat plane crank engines for the night, I promise.

Here is a good article comparing a flat plane crank F1 engine with a cross plane crank NASCAR engine. Excellent reading.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm

Cheers,
Pat

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by desertfox73

I think they look far better than the current F30/F32. The new front end on the BMW 3 and 4 is a sloppy mess with a million lines intersecting all over the place. In the designer/engineer conversations, the BMW designers lost. As for the iPad screen in the BMW sticking up...yikes.

agree. I can't stand the "slope down" front end design on these cars as well as the screen glued on in F series. E9x is an industrial design but it will age very well. E9x M3 with stang 4.2 or C7 engine would be sick. The new Z07 and vodoo wil be a nightmare for new M3.

[XtoM]

I love trolling mustang fans

[XtoM]

Originally Posted by swanson

Keep laughing. You'll be the looking at taillights.

I can count the number of mustangs sold in the UK on one finger I'd like one but it's just not a car for Europe let alone the UKs roads, it's muscle, not finesse it does a great job of what it's meant for but it's not in the same league as an M, maybe an X5M

[kdiggz]

I'm going to buy the best car for me regardless of make, model, or price. I have no brand loyalty. A cool car is a cool car. The new M3 is going to have its hands full not only competing with other German makers but now it looks like america has some winners with the corvette and the mustang. The M3 won't be such an obvious choice next time around. It's nice to have options. The more cool cars the better!