S55 vs. S65

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Actually yes I am.

I'm mad because I loved my Euro Deliveries, love the idea of getting another generation of M car, and loved the amazing, soulful, bespoke engines BMW M was offering. I'm mad all that is gone.

I'm not a fan of turbo lag, tuned non-M engines being passed off as "M-Power", pedestrian sounds augmented with the stereo (LOL) or short shifting at 5500 RPM, all of which are realities of the new Ms.

Mad it's faster? Heck no. I'm embarrassed and surprised it's not faster than it is. Like I said, the diesel Audi was dominating LeMans. Didn't make me want a diesel "performance" car either.

I WANTED to want the new M3/M4.

Like I said... maybe you should drive it (like I did ) first before judging. You might be surprised and it seems short sighted to me.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by gthal

Like I said... maybe you should drive it (like I did ) first before judging. You might be surprised and it seems short sighted to me.

It's only as short sighted as reviewing any specs or choosing any car to test or not test drive, isn't it?

Besides, when the majority of professional and even amateur reviewers lament the lack of throttle response, lack of decent sound and benefits of short shifting, does that not inform us?

Is there anyone who believes that more boost and bigger heads / cam timing will improve the throttle response of the already laggy N55? BMW didn't put the 7 second spool up feature on the new M turbos because it was so responsive without it.

I'd guess that I WILL end up driving one before my next purchase; as I said, I REALLY wanted to keep my BMW M thing rolling. I'm simply not impressed, between the undetectable yet trumpeted weight reduction to the N55 with a sticker and a tune.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Actually yes I am.

I'm mad because I loved my Euro Deliveries, love the idea of getting another generation of M car, and loved the amazing, soulful, bespoke engines BMW M was offering. I'm mad all that is gone.

I'm not a fan of turbo lag, tuned non-M engines being passed off as "M-Power", pedestrian sounds augmented with the stereo (LOL) or short shifting at 5500 RPM, all of which are realities of the new Ms.

Mad it's faster? Heck no. I'm embarrassed and surprised it's not faster than it is. Like I said, the diesel Audi was dominating LeMans. Didn't make me want a diesel "performance" car either.

I WANTED to want the new M3/M4.

We are completely on the same page. I've found my F8X kindred spirit.

However.... Since the new M3 has 4 doors (great as I have 2 new-ish little boys) and is, at least in a straight line, every bit as fast as a 991 C2S, one too may be in my future. There are just many more options to consider competitively today.

[Audio Fan]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Actually yes I am.

I'm mad because I loved my Euro Deliveries, love the idea of getting another generation of M car, and loved the amazing, soulful, bespoke engines BMW M was offering. I'm mad all that is gone.

I'm not a fan of turbo lag, tuned non-M engines being passed off as "M-Power", pedestrian sounds augmented with the stereo (LOL) or short shifting at 5500 RPM, all of which are realities of the new Ms.

Mad it's faster? Heck no. I'm embarrassed and surprised it's not faster than it is. Like I said, the diesel Audi was dominating LeMans. Didn't make me want a diesel "performance" car either.

I WANTED to want the new M3/M4.

Dude, it may be time for you to move past M. You seem way too agitated and stressed over this car, and you haven't even driven it. It's not worth it. There are too many choices. Cars should bring joy, not stress. I had an E92 M3, and I'll bet that everything on the new ones will be as good, if not way better. It will sound different, but it's just different. Who defined the sound of a low torque, NA engine as the best? No one. It's just what we are used to. All that extra power with a better chassis will be addictive.

Did you stress out when you lost your keyboard when iPhones took over. I'm guessing you did. Tech evolves and generally found to be better once the fear of change subsides. BMW has made the biggest change in the M3 family ever - it will be looked back upon on the future with great fondness. They new the change to turbos, electric steering, etcetera would be highly scrutinized. As such, they had to make a bigger performance change than with any prior generation. Plus, they had to make room for the M2. From the reviews, which are superb, the consensus is about as high as you could expect. Don't over amplify each little niggle. They all have to say something negative. If amplified all of the positives with the same gain as you apply to the negatives, you might just stroke out with joy.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Audio Fan

Dude, it may be time for you to move past M.

We agree on this.

You seem way too agitated and stressed over this car, and you haven't even driven it. It's not worth it. There are too many choices. Cars should bring joy, not stress.

Again, we agree.

I had an E92 M3, and I'll bet that everything on the new ones will be as good, if not way better.

Higher redline = more exciting = better = E9x.

Instant throttle response vs. turbo lag = more exciting = better = E9x.

No need for stupid stereo fake engine noise because the ACTUAL mechanical sounds are so magnificent = better = E9x.

Bespoke engine = more exclusive = better = E9x.

So, we don't even close to agree on that point.

It will sound different,

Once again, we agree.

but it's just different.

Again, you'll find yourself with the minority opinion, and NOT my opinion, on this one. The sound of a 5500rpm turbo six is in no way as aurally pleasing as the magnificent S65 (which itself is inferior to the sound of the S85).

Who defined the sound of a low torque, NA engine as the best? No one.

Best? Unknown. Better than the turbo 6? EVERY reviewer, and me.

It's just what we are used to. All that extra power with a better chassis will be addictive.

Yup, that'll make it SOUND way better.

Did you stress out when you lost your keyboard when iPhones took over. I'm guessing you did.

Not sure why you'd take it personal, but whatever. I actually love BETTER technology. But what I DON'T want is a sports car that loses all uniqueness and becomes simply a commodity car with a commodity engine, for a few MPG of fuel economy. I've had my E90 M3 for almost 3 years and have almost 17k miles on it. So I bought a $68k car, and had it averaged 4mpg better than it did, I'd have saved ~$700 TOTAL over those three years. ONE PERCENT of the car's price. Like I give a shit about THAT.

Tech evolves and generally found to be better once the fear of change subsides.

This isn't "tech evolving". It's using a regular engine in an M car, instead of an M bespoke engine. It's a 335i with a tune. How many 335i's have an S65 in them? MAYBE half a dozen on Earth? How many 335i's have a tune? Maybe 20,000 of them in the US alone? Most of those will be as powerful as the new M car, with a $1k software patch. And their engine will be EXACTLY as "special" as that in the new M3.

BMW has made the biggest change in the M3 family ever - it will be looked back upon on the future with great fondness. They new the change to turbos, electric steering, etcetera would be highly scrutinized. As such, they had to make a bigger performance change than with any prior generation.

WHAT? This new engine SUCKS! Almost identical HP (S65 vs S54 was an 80hp, or 25%, change, for comparison), low RPM, laggy, sounds pedestrian, not a bespoke M engine ... NO WAY is it "bigger performance change than any prior generation". It's effectively NO performance change.

Plus, they had to make room for the M2.

How does this have any effect on the conversation? Shouldn't they have made the M3 FASTER to do this?

From the reviews, which are superb, the consensus is about as high as you could expect.

Superb? You mean like the short shift at 5500, the crappy sound, the lag, the FAKE sound through the speakers, the 335i engine with a sticker and a tune? Are those the superb reviews we're discussing?

Don't over amplify each little niggle. They all have to say something negative. If amplified all of the positives with the same gain as you apply to the negatives, you might just stroke out with joy.

Bottom line, if this car succeeds, and there's no way it's as popular as the prior version, then it does so IN SPITE of the engine, not BECAUSE of it.

[Sedan_Clan]

Kurt you need a sedative......maybe an enema too!

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Kurt you need a sedative......maybe an enema too!

Again with the personal. Conversation isn't about ME. It's about THE CAR. Stick to THAT conversation.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Again with the personal. Conversation isn't about ME. It's about THE CAR. Stick to THAT conversation.

Ok then: sorry you don't like a car you haven't driven.

Bon voyage and Bon chance in all your future motoring endeavours.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Actually yes I am.

I'm mad because I loved my Euro Deliveries, love the idea of getting another generation of M car, and loved the amazing, soulful, bespoke engines BMW M was offering. I'm mad all that is gone.

I'm not a fan of turbo lag, tuned non-M engines being passed off as "M-Power", pedestrian sounds augmented with the stereo (LOL) or short shifting at 5500 RPM, all of which are realities of the new Ms.

Mad it's faster? Heck no. I'm embarrassed and surprised it's not faster than it is. Like I said, the diesel Audi was dominating LeMans. Didn't make me want a diesel "performance" car either.

I WANTED to want the new M3/M4.

I am with you. I struggle to be as enthusiastic about getting this new generation of M3(4) as I was getting my E46 and E92. With each successive iteration of the previous generations, I got more of what I liked. Now, with the F82, what I am getting is different. As you, I am (a little) mad about the engine and the DCT. I decided to take the leap of faith anyway, but I am not yet sure I will like it.

You are however being at bit harsh on some of the points you bring. Yes, the S55 will need to be short shifted. But at 7000~7300rpm, not at 5500rpm.

While it might not be as special as the S65, the S55 is a bespoke engine, not a tuned N55. Almost every component in the engine is unique. Yes, a tuned FBO N55 can make as much power, but for how long? After one lap it either heat soaks or goes in limp mode. That is where the ///M engineering went. I am still a bit wary about throttle response and the overall feel of the engine.

As for sound, to be honest, when I first got my E92, I preferred the sound of my old stock S54. I just loved how this engine screamed its lungs out at WOT nearing redline. The S65 sounded monotone almost video gamish in contrast. Three successive things I did drastically improved the sound of the car, MPE, K&N and BPMSport tune. Now the sound is pure bliss. I barely use the stereo anymore. I keep getting compliments for how good the car sounds from neighbors, track buddies or techs at the dealer. I am pretty sure the S55 will never match this.

I think the chassis will be fabulous though on this latest gen, and for me, this is very important.

I guess I will know for sure in a few weeks when I get mine. If I don't like it, I will just sell it and move on to something else .

[AreOut]

Kurt I do understand your sentiment and it's true S65 has much better sound (worst of all you can't turn off the fake sound on S55 engine), but S55 has better performance&economy and it's lighter package overall.

If you ask me it's good they are very different so everyone can choose what he likes.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As you, I am (a little) mad about the engine and the DCT. I decided to take the leap of faith anyway, but I am not yet sure I will like it.

Actually I have DCT in my E90 M3, and I love it.

I'm not at all anti-technology or old school. I just happen to like the sound of high RPMs and the responsiveness of the S65.

You are however being at bit harsh on some of the points you bring. Yes, the S55 will need to be short shifted. But at 7000~7300rpm, not at 5500rpm.

You can see it from the power curve; sure, you CAN run it to 7k, but you'll be faster if you get it into the next gear at 5500, and some reviewers have already noted that. On the other hand, the S65 should be taken to 8k+ for max speed. It's a monster on the high end, and it's thrilling.

While it might not be as special as the S65,

LOL, come on! It's the same engine as comes in half BMW's lineup, except with a tune!

the S55 is a bespoke engine, not a tuned N55. Almost every component in the engine is unique. Yes, a tuned FBO N55 can make as much power, but for how long? After one lap it either heat soaks or goes in limp mode. That is where the ///M engineering went. I am still a bit wary about throttle response and the overall feel of the engine.

I can't wait to hear some guy with his "S" 55, talking to the JB3 N55 guy who outruns him:

"Oh yea, well, I have a better RADIATOR!".

LOL.

As for sound, to be honest, when I first got my E92, I preferred the sound of my old stock S54. I just loved how this engine screamed its lungs out at WOT nearing redline. The S65 sounded monotone almost video gamish in contrast.

I have no disagreement with that. The S54 is a sweet-sounding, and nice performing engine. That nasty, metallic thrumming at redline is amazing! The S54, S65 and S85 are absolutely the pinnacle of "everyday guy" engines. They're all magnificent.

Three successive things I did drastically improved the sound of the car, MPE, K&N and BPMSport tune. Now the sound is pure bliss. I barely use the stereo anymore. I keep getting compliments for how good the car sounds from neighbors, track buddies or techs at the dealer.

Interesting. I've done nothing to mine, but maybe I should look into this?!

I am pretty sure the S55 will never match this.

Oh, you're more than "pretty sure". Might as well go ahead and say so. Can you make it sound better than stock? Yea, probably. Perhaps Dinan will be able to kill the speaker-engines for you when they give it a tune? But will it ever sound like it's running 8000+ rpm and have telepathic throttle response? Uh, NO!

I think the chassis will be fabulous though on this latest gen, and for me, this is very important.

Yea, me too - it'll be good, and it matters.

I guess I will know for sure in a few weeks when I get mine. If I don't like it, I will just sell it and move on to something else .

I'm not over it yet that they abandoned great engines, for commodity engines, so I'm not even close to buying. I'd pick up an RS5 first, despite the douches they have hawking them locally. Or more likely, just hang on to my E90 for now.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Actually I have DCT in my E90 M3, and I love it.

I'm not at all anti-technology or old school. I just happen to like the sound of high RPMs and the responsiveness of the S65.

So do I, and absolutely love the DCT on my E92. I feel we got short changed with the DCT on the F8X though. See my babbling and ranting here.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

You can see it from the power curve; sure, you CAN run it to 7k, but you'll be faster if you get it into the next gear at 5500, and some reviewers have already noted that.

This is not true. To maximize acceleration, you need to maximize power. Hence you need to surf the power curve (5500-7300rpm on the S55). You need to shift to get the RPM in the next gear at 5500rpm. Not shift at 5500rpm.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

LOL, come on! It's the same engine as comes in half BMW's lineup, except with a tune!

No it's not. You should read a bit more on the topic. IMO, the S55 differs as much from the N55 than the S54 did from the M54.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I can't wait to hear some guy with his "S" 55, talking to the JB3 N55 guy who outruns him:

"Oh yea, well, I have a better RADIATOR!".

LOL.

I should have put this in context. I love(d) my ///M3s because of their dual nature. Great daily drivers and great track cars. And I do track a fair bit, this is why I have an M3.

I could not care less if an FBO 335 passes me on the highway, that is not where I like to enjoy speed. On the track though, doing 30+ minute sessions, I want an engine that will be able to last the whole session and give me its full power all the way through. Tuned FBO N54/N55s just can't do that. Even my track buddies that run 1Ms complain about loss of power on hot days. I don't think this will be an issue with the S55.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Interesting. I've done nothing to mine, but maybe I should look into this?

You should, you'll love it

[ASAP]

Someone hasn't seen the S55 stock and tuned dyno yet...

The only thing that's outrunning a tune S55 is an RB N54... That's before the S55 even touches any other type of fuel... I am stunned by the S55 so far.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Savory

How did this become a S65 vs N54 thread?.

Probably because the N54/N55/S55 are all effectively the same thing except for stickers, a tune and stereo speakers.

[svc0x80]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Probably because the N54/N55/S55 are all effectively the same thing except for stickers, a tune and stereo speakers.

Wow, that is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by svc0x80

Wow, that is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

+1

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by svc0x80

Wow, that is an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

I say these three, 3L, inline six, same bore spacing, turbo Bimmer engines are NOT "incredibly" different. Slightly different turbo configuration, different tune. Otherwise, same basic thing. Same exact displacement, same number of cylinders, about the same redline, all turbos. It's not like I said it was the same as the (magnificent) S65 or S85 engines. This is just another 3L turbo BMW engine. You could put a tune on your X3 engine and it would be about the same thing.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I say these three, 3L, inline six, same bore spacing, turbo Bimmer engines are NOT "incredibly" different. Slightly different turbo configuration, different tune. Otherwise, same basic thing. Same exact displacement, same number of cylinders, about the same redline, all turbos. It's not like I said it was the same as the (magnificent) S65 or S85 engines. This is just another 3L turbo BMW engine. You could put a tune on your X3 engine and it would be about the same thing.

not to mention a 335i will be able to rival a M4 in the sound department with the right exhaust. a E90 335i would never touch the V8 in the sound.

[svc0x80]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I say these three, 3L, inline six, same bore spacing, turbo Bimmer engines are NOT "incredibly" different. Slightly different turbo configuration, different tune. Otherwise, same basic thing. Same exact displacement, same number of cylinders, about the same redline, all turbos. It's not like I said it was the same as the (magnificent) S65 or S85 engines. This is just another 3L turbo BMW engine. You could put a tune on your X3 engine and it would be about the same thing.

After owning several forced induction cars, N/A engines are the ones that seem boring, torque is only produced at high RPM and this makes for a terrible daily driver. Turbo cars not only make great daily drivers, but the real fun starts at 100mph+ (I'm not sure if that safe on shitty roads of Columbus). Unlike the S65, the S55 is build to handle large amounts of pressure, and that pressure results in ridiculous amounts of torque. You know higher flame front propagation rates at higher pressures. Whats the S65 pushing? a measly 300ft/lb? The N54 puts out 295 and the N55 322. Exactly how is this magnificent again? Ah yes the sound.

Compare 18+ psi on a 3.0L, the 4.0L displacement of the naturally aspirated V8 is a joke. I mean seriously if you're going to talk about magnificent V8s BMW is not the company you should reference.

The S55 is superior to both N54 and N55, closed deck (like the RB26 and 2JZ), has twin-wire arc spayed iron/carbon coating instead of liners, bore and stroke are different as are pistons and more importantly rods and crankshaft.

Its hardly just an engine with a different turbo configuration and different tune.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by svc0x80

After owning several forced induction cars, N/A engines are the ones that seem boring, torque is only produced at high RPM and this makes for a terrible daily driver. Turbo cars not only make great daily drivers, but the real fun starts at 100mph+ (I'm not sure if that safe on shitty roads of Columbus). Unlike the S65, the S55 is build to handle large amounts of pressure, and that pressure results in ridiculous amounts of torque. You know higher flame front propagation rates at higher pressures. Whats the S65 pushing? a measly 300ft/lb? The N54 puts out 295 and the N55 322. Exactly how is this magnificent again? Ah yes the sound.

Compare 18+ psi on a 3.0L, the 4.0L displacement of the naturally aspirated V8 is a joke. I mean seriously if you're going to talk about magnificent V8s BMW is not the company you should reference.

The S55 is superior to both N54 and N55, closed deck (like the RB26 and 2JZ), has twin-wire arc spayed iron/carbon coating instead of liners, bore and stroke are different as are pistons and more importantly rods and crankshaft.

Its hardly just an engine with a different turbo configuration and different tune.

You can have a N/A engine that has low end torque. look at the C63 AMG or corvettes. They get the great sounding, low end power and more responsive engines. It just takes a big N/A engine to make good power at every RPM.

My biggest problem with these new trubo engines is the sound, or lack there off. The screaming sound of the S65 with a aftermarket exhaust is half the reason i wanted one. I put up with the lack of low end power to have a 8400RPM engine that sounds pretty sick.

i would say there are more people like you than me. Most just want the power.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I say these three, 3L, inline six, same bore spacing, turbo Bimmer engines are NOT "incredibly" different. Slightly different turbo configuration, different tune. Otherwise, same basic thing. Same exact displacement, same number of cylinders, about the same redline, all turbos. It's not like I said it was the same as the (magnificent) S65 or S85 engines. This is just another 3L turbo BMW engine. You could put a tune on your X3 engine and it would be about the same thing.

Nearly (without the last statement!) totally right ... and if there are greater differences between N54/55 and the S55 to make the M engine better for track use, the most important part of an engine is even the same - the engine (powerdelivery) characteristic !!!
From an race engine like characteristic of the S65 they changed to the torque orientated characteristic of an one-for-all-engine - sure an improvement for daily drivers but an great loss of engine spirit, uniqueness and fun.

Overall the new M3/M4 is really the "best M3 ever" but despite of its engine an not because of its engine ... the rest of the car is so much better than all precessors, that the engine doesn´t count in terms of car performance.

AND only stupid 335i(only)-Fanboys will think, that the engine and powerdelivery characteristic of the S65 was like it is, because BMW M couldn´t produce an NA engine with high low end torque like the C63 AMG or Ford Mustang engine. Its all about the engine philosophy of BMW M -> "Rennsporttechnik (und -Motoren!) in Straßenfahrzeugen" ... and for all who can´t handle such an car properly there was the perfect and diverent characteristic 335i - the S65 has enough low end torque to be an good daily driver, but no single Nm more than needed, because on track only hp, linear power delivery and driveability counts and not high low end torque.

[Jockey]

So this debate is still going on after all the personal reviews saying how much they love the sound (which is still such a subjective matter it really even shouldn't be part of the debate any longer).