S55 vs. S65

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Welcome to the home of the late model E9X hissy fit thread. Be gentle with them. Or they could stomp their feet and hold their breath til they're blue.

BMW might call the hissy fit a lost customer.

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

BMW might call the hissy fit a lost customer.

At least you're not bitter about it.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

I truly think these comparisons are useless as most will ignore objective data and refer to subjective "data" points to make their case.

The S55 was developped in an era of ever increasing emissions/fuel consumption regulations and post financial crisis cost cutting through platform sharing initiatives. This simply cant be denied.

Does that undermine the performance of the S55? Undeniably no, by all preliminary figures it is a powerhouse waiting to be uncorked. M seems to have clearly made the most out of the base N55 and in that perspective they deserve praise.

The S65 was developped in an era of sky high R&D budgets through BMW's F1 involvement. It was built on the amazing platform that was the S85. They reach the pinnacle of what was the M philosophy at the time; race car engines in casual clothing. Instead of being governed by regulations it was inspired by its competition such as the RS4 4.2 FSI and 6.2 AMG.

I do believe, had regulations been not so strict, BMW would have retained a small displacement V8 and would have introduced new tech (DI, FI, hybrid, etc) to add power. There is simply no replacement for displacement.

This is however wishful thinking and something we will never truly know.

The S65 is technically 10 years old and is showing its age versus the new crop of engines. I own one, and have test driven the new M3, the feel and experience are completely different and is entirely up to the customer to determine what he likes best. The new S55 is more powerful, more flexible, consumes less; it is the right engine for the job required in 2014.

At the end of the day, the new M3/4 is a better car than its outgoing model, not Surprisingly. M has changed; if you don't like their philosophy there's always Porsche

Enjoy them in good health, they're all a blast anyways!

Nice post!


@Kurt_OH

That hissy fit may mean a lost customer, but if they lose one and gain three new customers, it's a win. Like the post above stated, people tend to refer to subjective data points to make a case when they can't argue with the objective data.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

I truly think these comparisons are useless as most will ignore objective data and refer to subjective "data" points to make their case.

The S55 was developped in an era of ever increasing emissions/fuel consumption regulations and post financial crisis cost cutting through platform sharing initiatives. This simply cant be denied.

Does that undermine the performance of the S55? Undeniably no, by all preliminary figures it is a powerhouse waiting to be uncorked. M seems to have clearly made the most out of the base N55 and in that perspective they deserve praise.

The S65 was developped in an era of sky high R&D budgets through BMW's F1 involvement. It was built on the amazing platform that was the S85. They reach the pinnacle of what was the M philosophy at the time; race car engines in casual clothing. Instead of being governed by regulations it was inspired by its competition such as the RS4 4.2 FSI and 6.2 AMG.

I do believe, had regulations been not so strict, BMW would have retained a small displacement V8 and would have introduced new tech (DI, FI, hybrid, etc) to add power. There is simply no replacement for displacement.

This is however wishful thinking and something we will never truly know.

The S65 is technically 10 years old and is showing its age versus the new crop of engines. I own one, and have test driven the new M3, the feel and experience are completely different and is entirely up to the customer to determine what he likes best. The new S55 is more powerful, more flexible, consumes less; it is the right engine for the job required in 2014.

At the end of the day, the new M3/4 is a better car than its outgoing model, not Surprisingly. M has changed; if you don't like their philosophy there's always Porsche

Enjoy them in good health, they're all a blast anyways!

This points hits on all the good points that went into the E90 and the F80. IMO the F80 is a car i would want to lease and just have fun with it. the E90 is a car i would want to keep forever because of the era it was built in. Or the fact we probably wont see engines like it again. Engines with less worry about fuel consumption or emissions are a thing of the past. Which is how it should be also!

[svc0x80]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

BMW might call the hissy fit a lost customer.

Don't worry, others will replace that lost customer. BMW is trading at what 92 and change? Not like they aren't going sell a faster better M car just because it lacks the sound of the old V8. I personally like the whistle of the turbos better than the V8. It drives like a champ BTW, way better than the E90.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

BMW might call the hissy fit a lost customer.

Still driving the E92 and already gave them your money. LOL.

BMW-1
Lost Customer- 0

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

At least you're not bitter about it.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by Epoustouflant

I truly think these comparisons are useless as most will ignore objective data and refer to subjective "data" points to make their case.

The S55 was developped in an era of ever increasing emissions/fuel consumption regulations and post financial crisis cost cutting through platform sharing initiatives. This simply cant be denied.

Does that undermine the performance of the S55? Undeniably no, by all preliminary figures it is a powerhouse waiting to be uncorked. M seems to have clearly made the most out of the base N55 and in that perspective they deserve praise.

The S65 was developped in an era of sky high R&D budgets through BMW's F1 involvement. It was built on the amazing platform that was the S85. They reach the pinnacle of what was the M philosophy at the time; race car engines in casual clothing. Instead of being governed by regulations it was inspired by its competition such as the RS4 4.2 FSI and 6.2 AMG.

I do believe, had regulations been not so strict, BMW would have retained a small displacement V8 and would have introduced new tech (DI, FI, hybrid, etc) to add power. There is simply no replacement for displacement.

This is however wishful thinking and something we will never truly know.

The S65 is technically 10 years old and is showing its age versus the new crop of engines. I own one, and have test driven the new M3, the feel and experience are completely different and is entirely up to the customer to determine what he likes best. The new S55 is more powerful, more flexible, consumes less; it is the right engine for the job required in 2014.

At the end of the day, the new M3/4 is a better car than its outgoing model, not Surprisingly. M has changed; if you don't like their philosophy there's always Porsche

Enjoy them in good health, they're all a blast anyways!

Only 6 posts, but so well spoken. Proves the quality over quantity. Please stick around.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Nice post!


@Kurt_OH

That hissy fit may mean a lost customer, but if they lose one and gain three new customers, it's a win. Like the post above stated, people tend to refer to subjective data points to make a case when they can't argue with the objective data.

I agree with all of this. As I said previously, the S65 simply brings tremendous enjoyment of truly fantastic engineering and design, fabulous sound, responsiveness and uniqueness to the E9x. If the measure is simple speed, the new engine delivers what you want. If "special" adds value to a potential customer's calculations, the new car loses points.

In any event, clearly BMW thinks the customers they want don't care enough to leave over it, or that there aren't any legit alternatives anyway. As for losing one and gaining three, that's not happening, especially as the M3 gets less special. If it's JUST fast (nothing particularly compelling or special in addition), then it's in a big group of fast "commodity" cars. Besides, BMW doesn't sell many M cars to begin with; gaining multiple new buyers to replace each of those lost is unlikely. Oh, and in my case, both my wife and I currently drive Bimmers so there are two customers at risk who like and have bought new BMWs, and want to buy more of them. Our son also likes them and will soon be driving. We'll see if they didn't lose three.

On the other hand, maybe the new engine won't end up being the catastrophe of a tuned
N55 that I fear.

[Kurt_OH]

I replied to the first of the "BMW doesn't need you" responses and replied before seeing the others.

My comment wasn't meant as a wish for BMW to suffer from folks leaving. More just disappointment that I probably will despite my wish to stay.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jockey

That's not what you said ol' sport. Here's what you said:

Yup, and the vast majority of reviewers (I read all 32 from the front of this forum) who mention the S65 note the same things:

1. It has better response and immediacy than the new turbo engine
2. It sounds special/racy/fantastic vs. fairly universally dull.

I say any degradation of something "positive" in the prior version (sound, special character, responsiveness ...), and is less so in the new version, is a negative. Not saying there's nothing positive on the other side of the ledger (more torque really being the only one that matters to me), but this is not a wholly superior, or even IMHO net superior engine.

Must be why six of the 32 reviews stated they missed the S65 and lamented it's passing.

Your ignorance is showing. And the underlined part is factually untrue.

11 of 32 reviews stated the sound of the F80 was boring, muffled or in some other way mediocre. Six commented specifically on the undesirable fake sounds and five said it sounded like a diesel. 12 said they liked the sound and three commented on it being loud.

Actually, most of that entire statement is just totally wrong. Multiple people have done the math and shown the optimum shift point is 7300 RPMs. Why? Because it's still making max power and an upshift and keeps you perfectly in the max power band.

Multiple reviewers mentioned that running the engine above 5500rpm wasn't beneficial to either performance or enjoyment.

You act like BMW (and the S65 specifically) was the only V8 engine ever put into a car.

The S65 isn't just "a V8 engine put into a car". It's a fairly special engine.

It's a special engine,

Agreed. See above.

no doubt but it's not the epitome of the M3 line.

It's right behind the S54 from the CSL.

If it was the end all be all, why did a V8 only find it's way into an M3 once?

They developed it and immediately put it in the M3 (did they use it in the Z8 also?). It is a fuel-swilling pig, no doubt about it. I guess that's why? Can't say for sure - they didn't consult me, or I'd have said to keep it, or replace it with something even more fabulous, like a destroked, 4L V10 running to 9k rpm ...

[Jockey]

Well, I guess that settles it then

In fact, most of the reviews do not agree with you. The best you got was 1/3 agreeing with a single comment. That's far from overwhelming.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Well, I guess that settles it then

In fact, most of the reviews do not agree with you. The best you got was 1/3 agreeing with a single comment. That's far from overwhelming.

True.

Not as much complaint about lag as I thought. No question it's a step back from the prior two M engines in that regard, as well as sound and thrill, but the reviewers didn't hate it.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

True.

Not as much complaint about lag as I thought. No question it's a step back from the prior two M engines in that regard, as well as sound and thrill, but the reviewers didn't hate it.

Yes, it's called turbo charged. Lag will happen. However, it seems most of the lag seen by reviewers can either be attributed to DCT lag (not being in S3) or not being in Sport +. And there's some discussion when the anti-lag feature is actually enabled in in Sport + since it doesn't sound like Sport + is an on/off switch for it.

Also, more than just a handful of reviewers have labeled this engine has having linear power delivery which is pretty special for an F/I engine.

This article does a very good job of describing the positive and negative attributes of the E92 M3, 1M, and F82: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2014/06/23.../#!prettyPhoto

The S55 will no doubt be a special engine, just like the S65 and S54 before but for different reasons.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Yes, it's called turbo charged. Lag will happen. However, it seems most of the lag seen by reviewers can either be attributed to DCT lag (not being in S3) or not being in Sport +. And there's some discussion when the anti-lag feature is actually enabled in in Sport + since it doesn't sound like Sport + is an on/off switch for it.

Isn't the spooled up turbo mode of sport plus time limited? Meaning that's not how most of your time driving this car will be experienced?

As for "its called turbo charged", yea we agree - That's one of the big downers of turbo engines. That, low revs, boring sound ...

Also, more than just a handful of reviewers have labeled this engine has having linear power delivery which is pretty special for an F/I engine.

Power that builds is more exciting to me.

This article does a very good job of describing the positive and negative attributes of the E92 M3, 1M, and F82: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2014/06/23.../#!prettyPhoto

That is an interesting article. Thanks!

The S55 will no doubt be a special engine, just like the S65 and S54 before but for different reasons.

You've jumped to a wholly unsupported conclusion there. Until it proves itself in thousands of costumer scenarios and track days, it's just a commercial. Further, I'd argue that no matter how a 425 hp turbo motor performs, it simply isn't that special. It's a commodity. Would the M4 experience be that different with a detuned V6 from a GT-R or from the upcoming RS5? No, you probably wouldn't even notice if you already owned one and they snuck into your garage and did it overnight.

Try that with an S65.

[ASAP]

You know you can get that the S65 experience for a third of the price in an S2000. That car is more trackworthy than an m3 will almost ever be.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You know you can get that the S65 experience for a third of the price in an S2000. That car is more trackworthy than an m3 will almost ever be.

Wouldn't agree with any of that other than price and is a track worthy car.

But yea, I'd like to have one!

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Wouldn't agree with any of that other than price and is a track worthy car.

But yea, I'd like to have one!

How so? It weights about 900 lbs less... is the autox king. Is the best driver's learner car available and comes with the best specific NA output per liter 4 cylinder engine in the world that also revs to 8300. If it lacks on power; you add a comtech SC where you will still be at a 1/3 of the price and it's near game over. The only thing the S65 has then sound and yada yada. Oh and you also get relatively cheap Honda maintenance which is great for the track.

But let me guess... its not a BMW then?

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

You've jumped to a wholly unsupported conclusion there.

No it isn't. Just because your bias is blinding you (because for some reason if you seem to think that the S55 being "special" would somehow cheapen the S65). And again, the S55 IS a special motor, just like the S65 is a special motor, JUST FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

When you make blank statements like this, it's obvious your bias is overpowering:

Further, I'd argue that no matter how a 425 hp turbo motor performs, it simply isn't that special.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by ASAP

How so? It weights about 900 lbs less... is the autox king. Is the best driver's learner car available and comes with the best specific NA output per liter 4 cylinder engine in the world that also revs to 8300. If it lacks on power; you add a comtech SC where you will still be at a 1/3 of the price and it's near game over. The only thing the S65 has then sound and yada yada. Oh and you also get relatively cheap Honda maintenance which is great for the track.

But let me guess... its not a BMW then?

You forget is also has the best 6MT gearbox in history.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Jockey

No it isn't. Just because your bias is blinding you (because for some reason if you seem to think that the S55 being "special" would somehow cheapen the S65). And again, the S55 IS a special motor, just like the S65 is a special motor, JUST FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

When you make blank statements like this, it's obvious your bias is overpowering:

Again I'll point out it hasn't even been in customers hands in any quantities. It is LITERALLY just a commercial. A thing that may turn out to live up to the hype. Maybe it won't. Either way, IT IS NOT YET KNOWN!

You're right that I'm biased. I want instant throttle response, spectacular, unique character, soulful sound and utter uniqueness. NONE of that comes with the N55/S55.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Again I'll point out it hasn't even been in customers hands in any quantities. It is LITERALLY just a commercial. A thing that may turn out to live up to the hype. Maybe it won't. Either way, IT IS NOT YET KNOWN!

You're right that I'm biased. I want instant throttle response, spectacular, unique character, soulful sound and utter uniqueness. NONE of that comes with the N55/S55.

It's been reviewed to death. Owners have taken delivery. Hell, owners have already taken it to the track.

Keep using N55 and S55 interchangeably, it continues to demonstrate your ignorance.


The F8X and S55 aren't for you? Fine. No one has a gun to your head.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by ASAP

How so?

I'll start with the literal: you get "the S65 experience" from "the S65", not a 4cyl.

It weights about 900 lbs less... is the autox king. Is the best driver's learner car available and comes with the best specific NA output per liter 4 cylinder engine in the world that also revs to 8300.

Yup. Cool car it is

If it lacks on power; you add a comtech SC

No thanks. You lose me when you go there.

where you will still be at a 1/3 of the price and it's near game over. The only thing the S65 has then sound and yada yada.

Well at least you're funny, but we apparently value things differently. The M3 delivers a lot more than the Honda. Is that what you have? You could even get a new mustang gt, sc it and be easy ahead of the new M cars in price and performance. Sounds like that may be the way you'd prefer to go.

Oh and you also get relatively cheap Honda maintenance which is great for the track.

Probably true, though so far just brake pads and fuel ...

But let me guess... its not a BMW then?

That's true and I do like BMWs. But I'm not looking for a track only car right now, nor an "only fun or interesting when I'm beating on it" car like the new M4. That's just another awesome thing about the S65 and S85. You know they're special every second they're running.