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      05-12-2014, 04:35 PM   #287
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My fairly well equipped E92 DCT M3 weighs (without driver) 3688lb with an almost full tank of fuel. BMW claims a 138lb weight reduction for a comparably equipped DCT M4. I expect my M4 (which will be very comparably equipped as my E92) to weigh 3550lb with an almost full tank of fuel. I think it is very realistic. If not, I will be dissapointed with the BMW Marketing .

As I have stated before, I trust that the weight reduction numbers presented are fairly accurate. I don't trust the absolute DIN numbers (3300/3350lb) or the US curb presented by BMW though.
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      05-12-2014, 04:50 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
My fairly well equipped E92 DCT M3 weighs (without driver) 3688lb with an almost full tank of fuel. BMW claims a 138lb weight reduction for a comparably equipped DCT M4. I expect my M4 (which will be very comparably equipped as my E92) to weigh 3550lb with an almost full tank of fuel. I think it is very realistic. If not, I will be dissapointed with the BMW Marketing .

As I have stated before, I trust that the weight reduction numbers presented are fairly accurate. I don't trust the absolute DIN numbers (3300/3350lb) or the US curb presented by BMW though.
Same here. I think the claimed reduction is there and I think my F80 which is comparably equipped to my E90 except that the F80 has the new light MT while my E90 has DCT will be 200+ lbs lighter and that I will actually be able to feel it as increased agility when combined with the the efforts made in terms of chassi technology improvements outside weight, subframe fitting etc.
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      05-12-2014, 06:37 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Same here. I think the claimed reduction is there and I think my F80 which is comparably equipped to my E90 except that the F80 has the new light MT while my E90 has DCT will be 200+ lbs lighter and that I will actually be able to feel it as increased agility when combined with the the efforts made in terms of chassi technology improvements outside weight, subframe fitting etc.
I am also still very much on the fence about DCT. I posted my dissapointment with the DCT on the F8X in a thread for which I got quite a lot of heat . Going from my E92 DCT to an F82 6MT would yield around 228lb of weight reduction. This could definitely be felt and I am not yet convinced that the DCT brings much overall acceleartion advantage over the 6MT on the F8X except for the launch.
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      05-12-2014, 08:52 PM   #290
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I'm all for reducing weight by replacing components with lighter, yet equally strong or stronger components. A case in point is the CF drive shaft. When it comes to replacing equipment with flimsy, cheap material, however - not so much. An example that comes to mind is the use of thinner glass in the new Z28. I feel even worse when they charge you extra for removing stuff.

Yes the DCT is heavier, coming as is it does from the M5/6 parts bin with some tweaks. Being the ever optimist that I am having committed myself to drop over $100 K on a car, I prefer to think of the tranny as being beefier rather than fatter. Sure, it could be made super light if it were, for instance, made from parts printed with a 3D printer - but would it be rated for more than 600 hp as surely it must if they are using it in the M5/6?

I'm not knocking on the manual. Just trying to point out that lighter does not always = better in all applications.
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      05-12-2014, 08:57 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
I'm all for reducing weight by replacing components with lighter, yet equally strong or stronger components. A case in point is the CF drive shaft. When it comes to replacing equipment with flimsy, cheap material, however - not so much. An example that comes to mind is the use of thinner glass in the new Z28. I feel even worse when they charge you extra for removing stuff.

Yes the DCT is heavier, coming as is it does from the M5/6 parts bin with some tweaks. Being the ever optimist that I am having committed myself to drop over $100 K on a car, I prefer to think of the tranny as being beefier rather than fatter. Sure, it could be made super light if it were, for instance, made from parts printed with a 3D printer - but would it be rated for more than 600 hp as surely it must if they are using it in the M5/6?

I'm not knocking on the manual. Just trying to point out that lighter does not always = better in all applications.
I wonder too if they used that DCT because they know M3 owners are going to modify this powertrain for more output - and they wanted a beefier DCT in there for that eventuality (and possibly people trying to get warranty work done on a modified vehicle). Just thinking aloud.
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      05-12-2014, 09:02 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
I'm all for reducing weight by replacing components with lighter, yet equally strong or stronger components. A case in point is the CF drive shaft. When it comes to replacing equipment with flimsy, cheap material, however - not so much. An example that comes to mind is the use of thinner glass in the new Z28. I feel even worse when they charge you extra for removing stuff.

Yes the DCT is heavier, coming as is it does from the M5/6 parts bin with some tweaks. Being the ever optimist that I am having committed myself to drop over $100 K on a car, I prefer to think of the tranny as being beefier rather than fatter. Sure, it could be made super light if it were, for instance, made from parts printed with a 3D printer - but would it be rated for more than 600 hp as surely it must if they are using it in the M5/6?

I'm not knocking on the manual. Just trying to point out that lighter does not always = better in all applications.
That's kind of the core of the problem, isn't it. Making things light by making them flimsy is inexpensive. Making things lighter while maintaining (or improving) strength is expensive. You can make a gearbox lighter and stronger through better engineering (more efficient use of material) or by using materials that are lighter and stronger (more exotic alloys). Obviously, BMW has to work within constraints, so we get the heavier and stronger gearbox. I wouldn't fault someone for choosing the manual or the DCT, but I don't know that using the heavier DCT is something to be terribly excited about, other than the fact that it leaves plenty of headroom for tuning.
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      05-12-2014, 09:07 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
I wonder too if they used that DCT because they know M3 owners are going to modify this powertrain for more output - and they wanted a beefier DCT in there for that eventuality (and possibly people trying to get warranty work done on a modified vehicle). Just thinking aloud.
I think they did it for cost reasons. They simply had an off the shelf unit that was "good enough" therefore cutting development and manufacturing costs. The development money went into the 6MT this time around.
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      05-12-2014, 09:48 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
But it wasn't a promise, it was a target, wasn't it? (I have been too lazy to drag back up whatever initial interview that comment came from....). Targets and promises are different. Sure, less is more, but short of CF everything and going all old-school porsche "no door handles, just nylon straps, no AC, no stereo, etc" where was the rest to come?

Edit: ok, found it:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...+weight+target



so, yeah, a target. reached? no. Hence the 'don't be disappointed if...' caveat from the bimmerpost folks....

But, again, in a world where cars only get bigger and heavier, the diet combined with the new capabilities of this car seems an impressive combo.....
You need to look harder. Try here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=892746 and look where it says Weight:

"Under 3,306 lb (1500kg) weight ◦this figure is without driver and with 90% fuel." They didn't say target, it was specified under "SPECS."

That the car is bigger was a known fact then, so you can use it now to make excuse for the marketing "error." I suppose you can backtrack and say you didn't "promise" or it was "just a target" etc. But then you expect that from politicians or used car salesmen, not Official M3 M4 Specs from BMW.
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      05-12-2014, 10:06 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
You need to look harder. Try here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=892746 and look where it says Weight:

"Under 3,306 lb (1500kg) weight ◦this figure is without driver and with 90% fuel." They didn't say target, it was specified under "SPECS."

That the car is bigger was a known fact then, so you can use it now to make excuse for the marketing "error." I suppose you can backtrack and say you didn't "promise" or it was "just a target" etc. But then you expect that from politicians or used car salesmen, not Official M3 M4 Specs from BMW.
Easy Toronto. Don't worry - I'm sure the leafs/raptors/mayor situation will improve at some point....in meantime, practise yoga or something to ease off the aggression.


What I was 'searching for' (had you read the thread) was the post 'promising' E46 weight (which, as I was pointing out, it didn't actually do). When the car was released, what BMW said was it had an 80kg or 176 lb savings over E92 - which is what the OP seems to show......

BMW's claimed weights are always low. Like many say the claimed HP is low. Nothing new there.....comparing actual car to actual car the F80 does seem to land between a (noticeably smaller E46) and the E92. Losing 170 lbs is a good thing.

In your expert searching, have you found a scale weighed E46 to compare to these numbers? How close is the F80 to those? (What I find are numbers around 3,400-3,450 lbs scaled for the E46.....meaning it wouldn't hit 3,300 itself)

Last edited by (((myzmak))); 05-12-2014 at 10:18 PM. Reason: I felt like adding more. So I did. So there. Sue me or something
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      05-12-2014, 10:16 PM   #296
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Others from Europe have mentioned that the 3,300 weight is the true "stripper" weight because of TUV/EU regulations. TUV certificates are produced for all sorts of automotive components such as wheels, I would really like to see the one for the new M3--suspect it was all for marketing/initial headline grabbing.
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      05-12-2014, 11:16 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I think they did it for cost reasons. They simply had an off the shelf unit that was "good enough" therefore cutting development and manufacturing costs. The development money went into the 6MT this time around.
It's not as though the M5/6 parts bin was full of shite though? Am I off base in thinking that the beefier tranny from its high HP stablemates will mean a tranny that can not only handle more HP but also more abuse? Built Bavarian Tough? I'm cuing a good truck commercial jingo here for effect. They advertise trucks a lot out here in the wild west.
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      05-12-2014, 11:53 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am also still very much on the fence about DCT. I posted my dissapointment with the DCT on the F8X in a thread for which I got quite a lot of heat . Going from my E92 DCT to an F82 6MT would yield around 228lb of weight reduction. This could definitely be felt and I am not yet convinced that the DCT brings much overall acceleartion advantage over the 6MT on the F8X except for the launch.
Go with what you prefer. As far as the weight is concerned, even experienced drivers (including racing drivers) would be very hard-pressed to feel a weight loss of only 150-200 lbs. Objective comparison data might tell a different tale but your butt has a hard time noticing the difference!

Put another way, that amount of weight is similar to the difference between a passenger or no passenger.
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      05-13-2014, 02:28 AM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
Having a "confused" morning.

Who is saying BMW lied about weight savings? They said it would weigh about 80 kg or 176 lbs lighter than predecessor. (http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=923203)

That is what this scaled weight shows, almost exactly (174 lbs).

Weight varies depending on what is in the car, but apples to apples it seems BMW was right. ....which isn't so shocking since they are the ones building the damn cars.....
Please have a read here (its just earlier in this thread), the savings "apples to apples" just ain't 80 kg.
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      05-13-2014, 02:37 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
Go with what you prefer. As far as the weight is concerned, even experienced drivers (including racing drivers) would be very hard-pressed to feel a weight loss of only 150-200 lbs. Objective comparison data might tell a different tale but your butt has a hard time noticing the difference!

Put another way, that amount of weight is similar to the difference between a passenger or no passenger.
I disagree. In cars of this power to weight ratio, in straight ahead acceleration, I can feel the difference between passenger or no passenger (say 150-200 lb). That is on the order of 5%. My butt-o-meter is far from finely honed from years of road racing, but has gotten a decent work out on dirt bikes (rear wheel basically spinning all the time), snow machines, some off-roading in trucks, etc. For me I'm pretty sure I could't consistently identify 75 lb or so of difference. I think very experienced HPDE guys and certainly racers could probably identify consistently around 75 lb, but 25-50, doubt. Definitely no solid evidence/proof here, but reasonable numbers I believe.
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      05-13-2014, 08:25 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I disagree. In cars of this power to weight ratio, in straight ahead acceleration, I can feel the difference between passenger or no passenger (say 150-200 lb). That is on the order of 5%.
Ditto. I've said it elsewhere, but I can tell the difference with my dad (140 lbs) in the car, but I cannot tell the difference with my nephew (80 lbs). So somewhere between there (80 and 140 lbs) is the crossover for my butt dyno.
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      05-13-2014, 08:32 AM   #302
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At the track I've gone back to back sessions w/o and then w/ a buddy that is about 280. That's noticeable.
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      05-13-2014, 08:37 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I disagree. In cars of this power to weight ratio, in straight ahead acceleration, I can feel the difference between passenger or no passenger (say 150-200 lb). That is on the order of 5%. My butt-o-meter is far from finely honed from years of road racing, but has gotten a decent work out on dirt bikes (rear wheel basically spinning all the time), snow machines, some off-roading in trucks, etc. For me I'm pretty sure I could't consistently identify 75 lb or so of difference. I think very experienced HPDE guys and certainly racers could probably identify consistently around 75 lb, but 25-50, doubt. Definitely no solid evidence/proof here, but reasonable numbers I believe.
I once did a "joy ride" for a young lady at the track. She must have been 90-100lb at the most. After a few laps, she wasn't feeling too well so I dropped her off in the pits and jumped right back on track without leaving the driver's seat. I could definitely feel the difference in weight, I was in fact astonished by how much the difference could be felt. This is at the racetrack though, where the car is pushed at the limit so relatively small changes can be felt.
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      05-13-2014, 08:43 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Please have a read here (its just earlier in this thread), the savings "apples to apples" just ain't 80 kg.
Eh. Not sure "apples to apples" is the right question to ask. The right question is, how much is the difference as the cars were available from the factory, because that's how the vast majority of people will drive their car (unmodified). Once you start making modifications, the comparison becomes a rabbit hole. So if you look at your list:
  1. -45 lb (sunroof, as this is more apples to apples with the CF F80, this is 11 lb from the roof material and the balance from the sunroof and mecanism)
  2. -45 lb (convert it from DCT to MT, official figure)
  3. -XX lb (account for wheel+tire differences to BMW OEM 19" wheel - what wheels are those and what correction do we need here?)
  4. -YY lb ("full optioned" to get down to more lightly optioned - any estimates here?)

1) You can't subtract the weight of a CF roof from the E90 M3, because there was no CF roof available from the factory. Sunroof delete is a valid comparison.

2) Valid comparison.

3) Were both cars shod with factory wheels? If so, I don't know what compensation is required to do a factory-to-factory comparison.

4) The base F80 is very well optioned compared to the E90 cars. the biggest offender I can think of would be the heated seats, but are we certain the F80 didn't have them?

I think the XX and YY values from your list are going to be negligible if you're comparing factory equipment. Then again, maybe the F80 was equipped with a wheel that wasn't factory. I don't see photos of the car in that post, so I can't make that evaluation.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that the weight savings was oversold, and I don't intend to give BMW a pass, but I think some of the comparisons being made are pushing the needle too far in the other direction.
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      05-13-2014, 09:51 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Eh. Not sure "apples to apples" is the right question to ask. The right question is, how much is the difference as the cars were available from the factory, because that's how the vast majority of people will drive their car (unmodified). Once you start making modifications, the comparison becomes a rabbit hole
+1

I am leery of anyone making assumptions and calculations on weight savings based on hypotheticals.

Take 2 cars, from factory, equipped the same, and compare on the same scale, same conditions, etc. That is the only really fair comparison.

As that may/may not be possible, I agree with @js919: lets look to the fact that BMW USA says a 6MT weighs 3540lbs, which is damn close to what the scale weight was here.

3,300 was never a real world figure. As I noted above, even the E46 "target" weighed at least 100-150 lbs more than that.
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      05-13-2014, 10:10 AM   #306
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And look at what BMW has done with m cars this generation. They all feel lighter than they are and have underrated engines to give them the performance of lighter cars.
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      05-13-2014, 10:43 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I once did a "joy ride" for a young lady at the track. She must have been 90-100lb at the most. After a few laps, she wasn't feeling too well so I dropped her off in the pits and jumped right back on track without leaving the driver's seat. I could definitely feel the difference in weight, I was in fact astonished by how much the difference could be felt. This is at the racetrack though, where the car is pushed at the limit so relatively small changes can be felt.
Not unreasonable. However, are you certain you could accomplish the identification in a totally blind and random fashion? I lean toward doubting so.
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      05-13-2014, 10:49 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Eh. Not sure "apples to apples" is the right question to ask. The right question is, how much is the difference as the cars were available from the factory, because that's how the vast majority of people will drive their car (unmodified). Once you start making modifications, the comparison becomes a rabbit hole.
Apples to apples is the best question to ask and it has basis in BMWs original claim (in similarly equipped cars). Just for one example BMW is saying you can compare MT and DCTs between the models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
So if you look at your list:
  1. -45 lb (sunroof, as this is more apples to apples with the CF F80, this is 11 lb from the roof material and the balance from the sunroof and mecanism)
  2. -45 lb (convert it from DCT to MT, official figure)
  3. -XX lb (account for wheel+tire differences to BMW OEM 19" wheel - what wheels are those and what correction do we need here?)
  4. -YY lb ("full optioned" to get down to more lightly optioned - any estimates here?)

1) You can't subtract the weight of a CF roof from the E90 M3, because there was no CF roof available from the factory. Sunroof delete is a valid comparison.
No absolutely, this is the right way to compare an E90 M3 with CF roof vs. F80 M3 with carbon fiber roof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
3) Were both cars shod with factory wheels? If so, I don't know what compensation is required to do a factory-to-factory comparison.

4) The base F80 is very well optioned compared to the E90 cars. the biggest offender I can think of would be the heated seats, but are we certain the F80 didn't have them?

I think the XX and YY values from your list are going to be negligible if you're comparing factory equipment. Then again, maybe the F80 was equipped with a wheel that wasn't factory. I don't see photos of the car in that post, so I can't make that evaluation.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that the weight savings was oversold, and I don't intend to give BMW a pass, but I think some of the comparisons being made are pushing the needle too far in the other direction.
We're pretty well on the same page here. All of the other items are less significant, however, it just isn't fair to compare a loaded car to a stripper and also hold BMW "accountable" for their claim of 80 kg difference.
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