Time to replace CCB Rotors/pads? That'll be $17,000+

[Padfan9]

Thank god I decided not to get them! As good as they look, that is scary for anyone not leasing the car.

[swifty]

Originally Posted by dngo

Just a note - GTRs don't have carbon ceramics. They are just very expensive steel brakes.

Thanks for pointing that out finally. I was checking the net to see if Nissan made a change for 2015 and not even on the NISMO version do they run ceramics.

[MatthewDavid]

Looks like GetBMWParts has a retrofit at considerably cheaper (but still not cheap) than originally posted.

http://www.getbmwparts.com/partlocat...catalogid=4462

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

look into how CCB works at high temp, they essentially oxidize (aka burn off) at the high temp (CCB gets quite a bit hotter than steel, since they don't shed heat off as easily; but they don't distort or form thermal stress cracks like steel neither, hence its benefits) seen at the track to shed thermal energy generated during braking. they don't wear down like steel rotors at low temp, since the silica compounds in the CCB have much higher hardness than the pads. So, the only way to tell your CCB rotors have pasted its prime is by weighing it.

i dunno about you, but i would much rather trust a basic understanding of how these brakes work instead some guy's post on forums that is based on their "experiences" at track...

however, they do last almost forever under street use, if you keep it cool and don't abuse them. just need to swap the pads every now and then.

As a small precision, CCBs do shed heat energy better than iron rotors since they have a higher specific heat coefficient. However, since they have less mass, their temperature needs to increase more to absorb the same amount of energy. In turn, the higher temperature also helps them shed the energy better because heat transfer rate is directly proportional to temperature difference. The fact that they are able to more quickly dissipate heat is the main reason why CCB are more resistant to fade.

[Tonymiabmw]

Originally Posted by Curt2000

CCB Replacement Rotors
Front Left: 34112284805 $4,461
Front Right: 34112284806 $4,461
Rear Left: 34212284807 $3,824
Rear Right: 34212284808 $3,824

CCB Replacement Pads
Front: 34112284970 $565
Rear: 34212284990 $341

All total: $17,477 plus sales tax if you buy from a dealer ($1,572 in CA) and BMW labor...Could be north of $20,000 after all is said and done.

GTR owners be like...welcome to the club bro!

Did you track the car a lot? They just replaced mine due to vibration at 10k miles due to vibration.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As a small precision, CCBs do shed heat energy better than iron rotors since they have a higher specific heat coefficient. However, since they have less mass, their temperature needs to increase more to absorb the same amount of energy. In turn, the higher temperature also helps them shed the energy better because heat transfer rate is directly proportional to temperature difference. The fact that they are able to more quickly dissipate heat is the main reason why CCB are more resistant to fade.

Hummm, the specs from SGL-Brembo shows otherwise... It is pretty clear that these composite rotors have lower thermal conductivity than standard grey-iron rotors.

http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/internat...ml?__locale=en

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Hummm, the specs from SGL-Brembo shows otherwise... It is pretty clear that these composite rotors have lower thermal conductivity than standard grey-iron rotors.

http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/internat...ml?__locale=en

You also need to factor operating temperature when looking at thermal conductivity.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You also need to factor operating temperature when looking at thermal conductivity.

Sure, you would shed thermal energy faster if you have a larger delta T, but thermal conductivity coefficient remains the same at all temperature, unless the temp actually causes change to the materials itself, i.e. a phrase transformation of the ceramic compounds (i.e. oxidizing). At the end, you still have higher operating temp than iron rotors. But as I mentioned, CCBs have better mechanical properties than iron at elevated temp. And the specs from SGL shows that very clearly.

Nonetheless, I stand corrected with my original post. CCB has lower thermal conductivity than iron rotors, which will lead to higher overall rotor temp, and more importantly, higher temp at the rotor-pad contact surface during heavy braking as it takes longer for the thermal energy to dissipate through out the entire rotor.

[hyperboost]

that's a lot of dough

[absoluteis350]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Thanks for that photo. My CA was trying to tell me CCB are covered under maintenance and I was like dude you're on crack. This is nice proof.

EDIT: Actually he's still arguing they are covered. Interesting.

They are covered.. That is the OLD screen grab on the maintenance program. That language has been removed. It's really an irrelevant point because the pads and rotors are expected to last way beyond 50k mi, so BMW aren't doing anything special by including them in the program. Chances are, they will never need to be changed by BMW. Maybe one set of pads.

According to BMW, the rotors should last the life of the car, without tracking it. So who cares..

Originally Posted by M4TW

I can't seem to find any BMW-specific horror stories related to this.

Meanwhile, the fear and loathing of the CCB's seems to be a bit overstated, at least when it comes to replacement. To get socked would mean that there would be a chip (not an avalanche of complaints yet) that cannot be passed under some form of warranty (such as a "you broke it, you fix it one") or plain ole insurance.

When I last checked, my iDrive is reporting that my pads have 240,000 km to go until replacement. But I guess that's just fluffery as these brakes are clearly shite and no sane person would want to own them.

Exactly. They have been around on the M5/6s for a bit, and I haven't seen many major disasters over there. The horror stories on damage seem to be overblown. Take the M3/4 oil cooler location for example. Sure, anything can happen, but that doesn't mean its something to worry about continuously if its a rare occurrence. Like you pointed out, BMW is saying they should last the life of the car under normal use (no tracking). No one has yet to post anything up to indicate otherwise. Until that occurs, I consider the rest rumors.

[Brosef]

I think these replacement costs are overblown. I guarantee that there will be cheaper replacement costs for these rotors, both discounted OEM rotors and cheaper aftermarket alternatives.

what I'm most interested in is when there will be aftermarket iron rotors available. I've heard about being able to use other irons from the BMW lineup (the rear F10 irons for the fronts and then the front F80 irons for the rear???). I'm interested to see if anyone can verify that these would work.

the reality is that no one in their right mind is going to spend $17k+ for a new set of brake rotors/pads. you could always either buy a Brembo BBK for more like $7k or pick up a set of F80 iron rotors second hand for cheap.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Brosef

I think these replacement costs are overblown. I guarantee that there will be cheaper replacement costs for these rotors, both discounted OEM rotors and cheaper aftermarket alternatives.

what I'm most interested in is when there will be aftermarket iron rotors available. I've heard about being able to use other irons from the BMW lineup (the rear F10 irons for the fronts and then the front F80 irons for the rear???). I'm interested to see if anyone can verify that these would work.

the reality is that no one in their right mind is going to spend $17k+ for a new set of brake rotors/pads. you could always either buy a Brembo BBK for more like $7k or pick up a set of F80 iron rotors second hand for cheap.

Porsche's PCCBs have been out on the market for almost a decade, yet there is still not a lot of real alternatives to OE CCB rotors. The fact is making these materials are not trivial, and Brembo-SGL are the only OE suppliers at the moment. So far I have only seen Mov.It and Alcon making PCCB replacement rotors, and they all cost +$10k...

Unless someone like Giro-discs make replacement steel rotors, I would really recommend against the CCB option if you track the car. Even then, your pad choice will be very limited due to the OE calipers instead of the more commonly available pad shapes used on Brembo, Stoptech BBKs.

[48Laws]

Everyone who ordered CCB on a whim sphincter just tightened.

[RingMeister01]

From a Porsche owners perspective (996 GT2, 997 GT3) and PCCB on my GT2 and steels on my GT3, the PCCB were the overall better braking system. Without getting into a drawn out monologue the steels are a popular swap not only for Porsches but Ferraris as well due to lower running costs and greater pad choices.

It's great to have the ceramics as options. If it's not for you then don't get it. I think it's worth every penny.

[RowanBuds]

Originally Posted by 48Laws

Everyone who ordered CCB on a whim sphincter just tightened.

[RowanBuds]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

They are covered.. That is the OLD screen grab on the maintenance program. That language has been removed. It's really an irrelevant point because the pads and rotors are expected to last way beyond 50k mi, so BMW aren't doing anything special by including them in the program. Chances are, they will never need to be changed by BMW. Maybe one set of pads.

According to BMW, the rotors should last the life of the car, without tracking it. So who cares..

Can you provide a picture of the page in the guides included with the vehicle that no longer stipulates CCB's as not covered. I know you say they are, and said the same earlier, but there is a screengrab of the maintenance supplement shown on this thread saying they are explicitly NOT covered. Without proof I'm sorry to say you'll keep getting doubters.

As I said in my first inquiry of this thread to you I've been informed by my dealer the CCBs are NOT covered, and have been waiting to reply until I had hard proof they should be.

The statement on the website about vehicle specific exclusions leaves the door wide-open for your stance to be incorrect.

[LDSM]

So at this point, if you have the CCB option and want to swap to iron rotors and standard pads, there are no choices?

I wish we could hear from M performance centers, that have M3/M4's with CCB's to see how they're holding up, how soon are they replacing rotors etc.

[gsrbri]

I feel like I'm on the Rennlist forum...

Realizing this is a lot of mixing opinion with facts, but that's how it goes when the factory doesn't provide enough information for enthusiasts on technology like ceramic carbide/carbon brakes (Just ask anyone that owns a Porsche with PCCBs).

After a lot of research before buying my Porsche previously and now the M4, here's what I've found:

1) The Carbon/Ceramic braking system is superior. It is a simple fact. Better materials, larger hardware for more torque, full-floating rotor, larger pad surface area

2) If money was no object (re: replacement), I would have the M Carbon Ceramic braking system without question

3) If I were only going to street drive my M4 w/maybe one/two track days here and there, I would have ordered the M CCB

4) I regularly track my car ( 8-10 events per year or more) and while the CCB will provide better braking performance and offer that great reduction in unsprung weight, and may last several more track days than grey iron rotors/metallic pads, they will out-gas and eventually need replacement. My guess would be after one track season...maybe two, depending on driving style, proper cool-down, etc. Pricey! Also, there is just not enough consistent data out there from owners on either Porsche PCCB or M CCB. Too many inconsistent reports/opinions

I think the bottom-line is (again, my opinion) is that this is exotic racing hardware that was added to a road car (they added the ceramic carbide for durability vs. only carbon/carbon on a race car so you can drive on the street). Think of it as like a set of Michelin Cup tires. At $500 per set and a very short life, most people would call you insane for buying them and using up a few sets for a bunch of track laps...but we willingly do it

:-)

Again, my opinion. Not sure if that helps or throws more gas on the fire?

[Dalko43]

So much hate for the CCB option, with so little first hand experience to back it up. If people want CCB's, who cares?

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Honestly, I have no idea when these rotors start to oxide, since Brembo for sure doesn't publicize the chemical composition of their CCB rotors. But I wouldn't go as far as calling these CCBs have poor performance; they just not as cost effective as a good old steel BBKs. Just have look at pro level motorsports, the only cars that uses carbon or ceramic composite brakes are LMP1 and F1 cars, where they really need all the brakes they can for those downforce effect cars. Most of the GT, touring, and rally cars are still using traditional steel rotors. Are CCB better? Sure, but not $8k better in my opinion, considering you would have to replace them just as often as steel if you track them often.

I've heard that argument thrown around before...but I've also read that CCB's have limited use in GT, touring, ect. due to the regulations on what equipment can be used.

I doubt cost has anything to do with this decision for most race cars to use steel brakes over CCB's. GT, touring race cars, go through engine parts, transmissions, ect. at the rapid rate during race season...adding a few thousand $ more for CCB's is probably small fries compared to their overall operating budget.

Originally Posted by Curt2000

CCB Replacement Rotors
Front Left: 34112284805 $4,461
Front Right: 34112284806 $4,461
Rear Left: 34212284807 $3,824
Rear Right: 34212284808 $3,824

CCB Replacement Pads
Front: 34112284970 $565
Rear: 34212284990 $341

All total: $17,477 plus sales tax if you buy from a dealer ($1,572 in CA) and BMW labor...Could be north of $20,000 after all is said and done.

GTR owners be like...welcome to the club bro!

Yes, but how often do the average GTR owners, and M4 owners, have to replace the CCB's? If these rotors (not necessarily pads) can last 120k plus miles, then the cost may well be worth it.

Honestly until we get some actual data demonstrating the actual longevity of CCB's, or lackthereof, everyone on here is making a big deal out of nothing.

[richardg]

FYI ccb rotors can be refinished. Info here

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...1#post17713191

[RB Brakes]

Check this out:

http://www.racingbrake.com/Carbon-Ce...kes-s/7196.htm

[Neil McRae]

those prices are way wrong.