Injector stuck, a short chronicle...

[ckendri]

Originally Posted by tomlong

I find that Iridium plugs bend back and in theory iridium plugs are not supposed to be gapped anyway.

I hear you on this. I have always been under the impression that iridium plugs are not supposed to be gapped or re-gapped. However, my assumption was that they didn't want anyone messing up the coating, and this is one reason I think so many people see early failure of their iridium plugs. In other engines running e85 or petrol, iridium plugs go for 100,000 miles, so why are we seeing so many people say they only get 8k-10k miles? My guess is the coating is getting damaged while gapping.

I also think you know what your doing gapping the plugs. I did not mean to insinuate otherwise.

[nbennettksu]

It's funny you can't do third gear pulls because of roasting the tires. I can't do 4th gear pulls cause I roast the clutch 🥲

New oem clutch arrived today. I can still do third gear pulls when I put the Mickey Thompson's on 💪🏼

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by ckendri

I hear you on this. I have always been under the impression that iridium plugs are not supposed to be gapped or re-gapped. However, my assumption was that they didn't want anyone messing up the coating, and this is one reason I think so many people see early failure of their iridium plugs. In other engines running e85 or petrol, iridium plugs go for 100,000 miles, so why are we seeing so many people say they only get 8k-10k miles? My guess is the coating is getting damaged while gapping.

I also think you know what your doing gapping the plugs. I did not mean to insinuate otherwise.

NGK says not to gap more than .008 in either direction. https://www.ngk.com/proper-ngk-gapping-instructions

However to gap tighter you usually have to tighten the gap past the normal point of elasticity in the metal so it actually bends...in which case it's possible that the ground strap contacts the electrode which is bad. Any extra pressure on the electrode may damage the ceramic around it.

The main failure point of the spark plugs appears to be the ceramic portion over time. Without the ceramic the plug tips can overheat and melt down very quickly, a situation like this in the cylinder with misfires can be very damaging...same if the ceramic breaks off in the cylinder (which unfortunately is common). Other reasons the ceramic may get damaged is from the combustion as the plugs in these motors are extended projected into the cylinder for better combustion/flame propogation based on the design. So they are basically projected deeper than most plugs; this is a trend with other DI motors such as the new NSX as an example. DI motors also run leaner and temps are higher due to this. You'll see that the NGK 97506 (M4 GT4 plug) and N20 Flex Plugs when compared...the N20 Flex plug has extended shrouding to help protect the ceramic portion a bit more from the combustion event.

I've ran some NGK Racing plugs that are not extended projection and they run poorly at lower rpms (and they were a 9 heat range as well which doesn't help as that's colder). I would get misfire/damage to boot codes on startup with these plugs however WOT was fine...regardless it's not a viable solution.

Best method right now is buy the N20 Flex Plugs from FCPEuro - PN 12120042724 and swap them regularly when you perform an oil change. Preventative and free maintenance. Get the proper tools and such. This is exactly what Bend Calibration recommends in their Operation Guide/Manual they send to customers for Ecutek tuning.

[TopJimmy]

Many thanks to
Commanderwiggin and tomlong
for excellent contributions here. You rock!


I also use a billet gap tool and feeler gauge set. Yes, I used the wife's emory board to smooth the edges of my feelers, and also to round off the gap tool screw tip that pushes on the plug. She thinks she lost the nail file, don't tell her!

My gap method: Obviously first measure plug gap with feelers. I find that I'm more accurate measuring with the plug in hand instead of in the gap tool. Then I screw the plug into the tool to give a little push (nothing in the gap) and REMEMBER HOW HARD YOU TURN. Start EASY first, harder turns later. Back the pusher up a little, then measure again with feelers. CREEP UP ON YOUR DESIRED GAP. The last thing you want to do is gap too tight, and then need to bend the ground strap back (soooo easy to crack the ceramic with needle nose pliers, don't even get close to it).

When I ran a 0.020 gap on 93 fuel my car idled like crap. Then 22 fixed it. F80Paul asks for 0.021 gaps, and only goes tighter in rare situations (only as needed). I'm still at 0.022" gaps on NGKs and pushing 27PSI max.

[TopJimmy]

Update added to post#2 for today. Got the car started but still running a little rough here and there. Need to change out plugs since these may be fouled up.

[TopJimmy]

It seems my NGK plugs were fouled. Swapped in my old OEM plugs gapped 0.021" and the car ran much better. I changed the oil and went for an easy ride to collect logs for Paul. I don't want to get on it hard until he gives the all clear.

[SE7EN335]

I feel like for anything stock turbos, spark plugs should be OEM Bosch and gapped at 0.018".

Anything upgraded turbos running on E85 should be N20 Flex Fuel Plugs gapped at 0.022".

I have known a few people running BM3 OTS Stage 2 93 octane tunes on stock turbos with NGK iridium spark plugs gapped at 0.022" and they keep misfiring. Once they switch back to OEM Bosch plugs, the misfires disappears. Can't be a coincidence...

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by SE7EN335

I feel like for anything stock turbos, spark plugs should be OEM Bosch and gapped at 0.018".

Anything upgraded turbos running on E85 should be N20 Flex Fuel Plugs gapped at 0.022".

I have known a few people running BM3 OTS Stage 2 93 octane tunes on stock turbos with NGK iridium spark plugs gapped at 0.022" and they keep misfiring. Once they switch back to OEM Bosch plugs, the misfires disappears. Can't be a coincidence...

I had a rough idle with OEM plugs at 18 but ran fine regapped 21-22. Had no problems with my NGK B8S at 21 until I fouled them. I felt the B8S ran very smooth even at med-high boost and advance. I'm saving my set of flex fuel F8S for after I see a spark blow out on the B8S.

[BzsBimmer]

I’m going to bump this old thread because it’s priceless info.

I just got the dreaded chassis malfunction last weekend and I just got the chance to pull all the plugs. #6 was wet and looked just like yours Jimmy.

I guess it’s time to pull the injector and maybe get a Bend fuel filter for good measure.

Just added ethanol the week prior to this too… go figure.

Also have to replace my O2 sensor anyway. Got the 12B304 error. Need to replace Bank 1, cyl's 1-3, I believe.

Makes me want to just sell my Akrapovik downpipes and Eventuri intakes since it all has to come out lol.

[M2_MEDUSA]

Adding to this thread, Would EU5 injectors prevented it from sticking open? Been doing alot of research on EU5 recently as Im going with paul also and were giving it the boogey so curious if I should jump straight to EU5. I do plan on running 93 every 500 miles of E-85 tho.. So maybe ill be safe without dropping the coin

[BzsBimmer]

I think if you’re going to do it right, increase the safety margin and headroom, do the lift kit and EU5 injectors.

I’m only looking for some decent gains and ability to run E blends so I’m staying stock injectors. There are a lot of people running eblends with stock injectors though.

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by M2_MEDUSA

Adding to this thread, Would EU5 injectors prevented it from sticking open? Been doing alot of research on EU5 recently as Im going with paul also and were giving it the boogey so curious if I should jump straight to EU5. I do plan on running 93 every 500 miles of E-85 tho.. So maybe ill be safe without dropping the coin

Yes, running EU5 injectors removes the need for ultra high HPFP pressure. Using the Dorch kit helps supply the added volume.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Yes, running EU5 injectors removes the need for ultra high HPFP pressure. Using the Dorch kit helps supply the added volume.

Dorch kit adds more pressure based on revving the pumps more, if you want volume you should change the pumps.

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

Dorch kit adds more pressure based on revving the pumps more, if you want volume you should change the pumps.

There's a fitment issue with going to Stage2 HPFPs, where a spacer is needed. Most of us are using the Dorch Hi-Lift Kit which pushes the stock HPFPs with a longer stroke of the vacuum pump shaft (instead of revving it more).

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

There's a fitment issue with going to Stage2 HPFPs, where a spacer is needed. Most of us are using the Dorch Hi-Lift Kit which pushes the stock HPFPs with a longer stroke of the vacuum pump shaft (instead of revving it more).

I would never put weird inventions in my car such as the dorch kit, either with a long stroke or with a 4-point lever, if this worked the engineers would not waste time and money making thicker pistons when they need more fueling.
it's just my opinion

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by Prodrive_X

I would never put weird inventions in my car such as the dorch kit, either with a long stroke or with a 4-point lever, if this worked the engineers would not waste time and money making thicker pistons when they need more fueling.
it's just my opinion

You're entitled to your opinion…but I don't see how this is a weird invention. The idea of a cam having increased lift is nothing new. Think of a pushrod V8 head. If you want to flow more you need a bigger cam and/or increased ratio rockers to push the valves open more. The Dorch kit is simply a bigger cam pushing a HPFP plunger a little more.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

You're entitled to your opinion…but I don't see how this is a weird invention. The idea of a cam having increased lift is nothing new. Think of a pushrod V8 head. If you want to flow more you need a bigger cam and/or increased ratio rockers to push the valves open more. The Dorch kit is simply a bigger cam pushing a HPFP plunger a little more.

I disassembled the vaccum/fuel pump's and yes, originally it goes up 4mm and I imagine the dorch kit goes up a maximum of 6mm, before touching the piston at the bottom of the pump, nobody works in fuel pumps this way, all manufacturers increase the diameter of the piston, It is not the same to increase stroke in a pump as to increase stroke in an engine, either with the crankshaft or with the camshafts.

[samsamdar]

TopJimmy

Hey sorry to bring back an old thread but I could really use some input here:
I think I got a really bad tank of e85. My Dorch HPFP died and after replacing that, i believe I’m not having injector issues. The only thing is that my car is running too lean (not too rich) so I’m a bit stumped here. All of my cylinders are misfiring at this point and the car is also throwing codes for injectors being switched off. I’m also getting fuel smelling white smoke out of the exhaust too… what should I do next? Replace the plugs and injectors?

Logs from right before the car threw errors and broke down:
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=65385dea1b09e47c346ede7b
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=65385c127235ca6e90c78ce4

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

TopJimmy

Hey sorry to bring back an old thread but I could really use some input here:
I think I got a really bad tank of e85. My Dorch HPFP died and after replacing that, i believe I’m not having injector issues. The only thing is that my car is running too lean (not too rich) so I’m a bit stumped here. All of my cylinders are misfiring at this point and the car is also throwing codes for injectors being switched off. I’m also getting fuel smelling white smoke out of the exhaust too… what should I do next? Replace the plugs and injectors?

Logs from right before the car threw errors and broke down:
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=65385dea1b09e47c346ede7b
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=65385c127235ca6e90c78ce4

Sorry but unless you logged STFT 1&2 and Lambda 1&2 I can’t compare them to see if fueling is off in one bank.

[n8dgr84]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

TopJimmy

Hey sorry to bring back an old thread but I could really use some input here:
I think I got a really bad tank of e85. My Dorch HPFP died and after replacing that, i believe I’m not having injector issues. The only thing is that my car is running too lean (not too rich) so I’m a bit stumped here. All of my cylinders are misfiring at this point and the car is also throwing codes for injectors being switched off. I’m also getting fuel smelling white smoke out of the exhaust too… what should I do next? Replace the plugs and injectors?

Logs from right before the car threw errors and broke down:
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=65385dea1b09e47c346ede7b
https://bootmod3.net/log?id=65385c127235ca6e90c78ce4

You can actually get a lean fire code when running so rich that nothing ignites. The 02 sensor doesn't measure liquids so it thinks you're running lean. White smoke is typically unburnt fuel steaming in the cats. I would pump the fuel out, change the oil, replace all injectors and spark plugs without running the car anymore and add the Bend fuel filter.

[samsamdar]

Originally Posted by n8dgr84

You can actually get a lean fire code when running so rich that nothing ignites. The 02 sensor doesn't measure liquids so it thinks you're running lean. White smoke is typically unburnt fuel steaming in the cats. I would pump the fuel out, change the oil, replace all injectors and spark plugs without running the car anymore and add the Bend fuel filter.

Yeah so I just confirmed that cylinder 1 injector is stuck open and is pouring a ridiculous amount of fuel lol so there's my issue...

How can I pump the fuel out of the car? I've tried siphoning through the fill port but haven't had any luck doing it. I've got a full tank of gas rn so pulling the LPFP is gonna be a royal pain

[n8dgr84]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

Yeah so I just confirmed that cylinder 1 injector is stuck open and is pouring a ridiculous amount of fuel lol so there's my issue...

How can I pump the fuel out of the car? I've tried siphoning through the fill port but haven't had any luck doing it. I've got a full tank of gas rn so pulling the LPFP is gonna be a royal pain

What makes you think the fuel is bad?
Maybe it's just a result of running the injectors at high psi levels. Seeing more and more of this lately where tuners like F80Paul run injectors at 3600psi+ and the gates break, causing at minimum a limp mode and at worst a windowed block.

The DME will shut down the bank of injectors with the stuck one to (hopefully) save the motor and that is the codes you saw.

I'd say focus on replacing the injectors, plugs, etc. Bad fuel is the least likely cause, IMO. If everything is replaced and still runs bad, drain the fuel.

Also, if possible, run lower HPFP pressure to keep them happier for longer like I did after switching tuners to Ata_T1T He was able to lower my HPFP from 3600 to 3300 on E60 while still adding more fuel and reducing the boost spike that I had. Adding safety and reliability is undervalued at (and over) the limits of the fuel system, unless money and/or downtime is of no concern. I'd reach out to Ata and see if he can get you an actual custom tune (btw he is way cheaper than the average tuner).