Interview w/ M chief engineer Biermann hints at M3/M4 0-60 in 4.3 seconds and 26 MPG

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

True--autocross, relatively slow class drag racing, and the like should be excluded. To be accurate, I suppose we should have entered into this conversation stating "road course car racing" although I doubt there was too much confusion, given the context of the situation.

Haha, and sorry for quoting you before the edit! I'm avoiding accomplishing actual work right now, and as a result I'm replying to some of these pretty quickly.

Yes, drag racing is a non-subject in the discussion here.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

no lag?

i've had honest feedback from 1m coupe drivers on their site because I love that car and wanted to get into one before getting the m3....it can be minimized but the lag is still there.

Agree. A turbo car will have lag, it's the nature of the beast. But having owned numerous turbocharged cars, the 135 has had the least out of all of them. I think one of the key differences being even not in full boost, the engine still produces enough power to make up for the lack of boost. I'm sure the 1M is even better and I'm willing to bet the M3/4 will be much better.

Isn't the M3/4 coming with some sort of "anti-lag" system? I thought I remember reading about that. Of course, a true anti-lag system causes havoc on the turbos.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

With which sanctioning body?

As I mentioned in my post, a stock GT3 RS not only competed in the Nurburgring 24 Hours, but actually beat most of the racecars and came in 13th overall after driving 3 hours to the track, it was then driven 3 more hours right back to Weissach.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11005242...at-nurburgring

http://www.sportauto.de/news/24h-pro...n-1793219.html

I don't read German but I know there were a few modifications to the car's ABS system, it had a racing fuel cell, roll cage, and competition seats added. Carbon ceramic brakes were removed since they are not allowed in its class and it ran on different wheels.

Obviously the GT3 RS is a totally different car to the M3 and has little-to-nothing to do with this discussion, I don't really even know why I brought it up. My only point was that the M3 is a street car that can handle a few laps around a track at moderate pace before needing to cool down. It seems crazy to me to expect anything more. This was true for the E46, the E9x, and it will be true of the F80. They were never very serious track cars and to answer your question yes I have driven my previous E90 M3, 135i, and 328i on track and they were fine at 7/10s or 8/10s but anything more was asking quite a lot from a soft street car.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Remonster

As I mentioned in my post, a stock GT3 RS not only competed in the Nurburgring 24 Hours, but actually beat most of the racecars and came in 13th overall after driving 3 hours to the track, it was then driven 3 more hours right back to Weissach.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11005242...at-nurburgring

http://www.sportauto.de/news/24h-pro...n-1793219.html

I don't read German but I know there were a few modifications to the car's ABS system, it had a racing fuel cell, roll cage, and competition seats added. Carbon ceramic brakes were removed since they are not allowed in its class and it ran on different wheels.

It's based on a stock car, but quite a lot of modifications had to be done before entering the race...

The rear Wheel Arches had to be modified to make room for the larger tires and the ABS had to be reprogrammed. The photos also illustrate that it wasn't just a stock car anymore... Althought it's impressive that the suspension etc seems to be stock.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Remonster

Obviously the GT3 RS is a totally different car to the M3 and has little-to-nothing to do with this discussion, I don't really even know why I brought it up. My only point was that the M3 is a street car that can handle a few laps around a track at moderate pace before needing to cool down. It seems crazy to me to expect anything more. This was true for the E46, the E9x, and it will be true of the F80. They were never very serious track cars and to answer your question yes I have driven my previous E90 M3, 135i, and 328i on track and they were fine at 7/10s or 8/10s but anything more was asking quite a lot from a soft street car.

According to BMW M, the F8x will be the most track ready "standard" M3 ever.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by Boss330

According to BMW M, the F8x will be the most track ready "standard" M3 ever.

I honestly don't doubt it after seeing those last few batches of Nürburgring test videos with the F80/F82s going buckwild. They looked very serious and very quick.

[solstice]

GT3 RS...

On those pictures it looks like a Scalextric car. My dad bought me one of the biggest standard sets available when I was five. Best toy I ever had and started a lifelong racing and car passion. One of the cars was a 911, it wasn't nearly the fastest but I loved that car. One day I own a real life one

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Remonster

My only point was that the M3 is a street car that can handle a few laps around a track at moderate pace before needing to cool down. It seems crazy to me to expect anything more. This was true for the E46, the E9x, and it will be true of the F80. They were never very serious track cars and to answer your question yes I have driven my previous E90 M3, 135i, and 328i on track and they were fine at 7/10s or 8/10s but anything more was asking quite a lot from a soft street car.

But yes, 911 GT3RS

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's based on a stock car, but quite a lot of modifications had to be done before entering the race...

The rear Wheel Arches had to be modified to make room for the larger tires and the ABS had to be reprogrammed. The photos also illustrate that it wasn't just a stock car anymore... Althought it's impressive that the suspension etc seems to be stock.

Good to have a German speaker here with us! Thanks for all the translating you've been doing for us.

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by solstice

GT3 RS...

On those pictures it looks like a Scalextric car. My dad bought me one of the biggest standard sets available when I was five. Best toy I ever had and started a lifelong racing and car passion. One of the cars was a 911, it wasn't nearly the fastest but I loved that car. One day I own a real life one

You and me both dude

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Agree. A turbo car will have lag, it's the nature of the beast. But having owned numerous turbocharged cars, the 135 has had the least out of all of them. I think one of the key differences being even not in full boost, the engine still produces enough power to make up for the lack of boost. I'm sure the 1M is even better and I'm willing to bet the M3/4 will be much better.

Isn't the M3/4 coming with some sort of "anti-lag" system? I thought I remember reading about that. Of course, a true anti-lag system causes havoc on the turbos.

My garage is an e90m3 and an e82 135i. Ive had an evo ix and my brother has had an evo x.

The 135i lag and lag in throttle response is HORRIBLE. Its my fiances car and even she complains about it.

The evos were different - lag was due more to boost but throttle response was much better (small ass turbos).

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

My garage is an e90m3 and an e82 135i. Ive had an evo ix and my brother has had an evo x.

The 135i lag and lag in throttle response is HORRIBLE. Its my fiances car and even she complains about it.

The evos were different - lag was due more to boost but throttle response was much better (small ass turbos).

Well throttle response is not turbo lag. I will agree that the throttle response in the 135 is not the best. Thanks BMW for the throttle-by-wire crappy programming.

On the other hand, the N54 135 does not have bad turbo lag (I'm not saying no turbo lag) thanks to the small snail turbos that hit full boost at 6 psi. It doesn't take much exhaust pressure on the turbine to spin it up. I haven't driven an N55 but I've heard the turbo lag is worst than the N54.

But yes, I feel the same way about the throttle response.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Well throttle response is not turbo lag. I will agree that the throttle response in the 135 is not the best. Thanks BMW for the throttle-by-wire crappy programming.

On the other hand, the N54 135 does not have bad turbo lag (I'm not saying no turbo lag) thanks to the small snail turbos that hit full boost at 6 psi. It doesn't take much exhaust pressure on the turbine to spin it up. I haven't driven an N55 but I've heard the turbo lag is worst than the N54.

But yes, I feel the same way about the throttle response.

yes, the 135i we have is an n55 with dct....there is throttle lag and turbo lag so its like a double whamey to the bad....

[Jockey]

You know, PPK1 fixes some of the issues that BMW introduced with their new ECU flash to fix the wastegate rattle and rough idle.

Of course, it is moderately annoying to pay for something to fix something from BMW that BMW messed up in the first place

[kkrBMW3]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Agree on both your points. Most I've gotten for short periods in the E92 is 23 mpg a 65 in 6th. A ~30% bump would be a nice bonus on trips. I know any excessive right pedal use will drop that off quickly, though.

The best I have recorded in my 2013 E92 M3 is 19.9 MPG

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by kkrBMW3

The best I have recorded in my 2013 E92 M3 is 19.9 MPG

What tires/wheels are you running? With my track setup (275/35/18 PSSs square) I couldn't get better than 19.9 mpg on the highway. I was always chasing that 20.0 mpg (even the closest track to me is 2.5 hours away, and I've driven as far as 9 hours away for a few trackdays).

With the stock ZCP setup though, I can get just over 22 mpg at 70 mph.

[Kayani_1]

Get a tune and you can modify the stock throttle response. However, no amount will bring turbo in line with a proper high performance NA engine. Unless of course you put a electric motor with the turbo like Porsche did.

Originally Posted by pkim1079

My garage is an e90m3 and an e82 135i. Ive had an evo ix and my brother has had an evo x.

The 135i lag and lag in throttle response is HORRIBLE. Its my fiances car and even she complains about it.

The evos were different - lag was due more to boost but throttle response was much better (small ass turbos).

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Get a tune and you can modify the stock throttle response. However, no amount will bring turbo in line with a proper high performance NA engine. Unless of course you put a electric motor with the turbo like Porsche did.

Or like BMW did? (i8).

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Get a tune and you can modify the stock throttle response. However, no amount will bring turbo in line with a proper high performance NA engine. Unless of course you put a electric motor with the turbo like Porsche did.

I know thats true but what if you dont want to modify?

I guess with the dinky turbos on the s55 with the added tech it shouldnt be that bad. But still not on par with a proper na setup.

Back in the fast and furious days i still preferred a high hp na setup than anything else and i still stick to it.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I know any excessive right pedal use will drop that off quickly, though.

Yes, 1M was the same way, great mileage if you drove it mellow but if you got into it, the mileage drops fast! that's one of the fallacies about turbo motors....the mileage is much better if you buy a sports car and drive it like a prius but if you drive it like a sports car, the mileage benefit is not as good and in the meantime you have given up amazing sound, high revving, instant throttle response for lag and "heat soak'"

[Kayani_1]

The BMW i8 vs the Porsche 918 there is no comparison. The Porsche 918 is a pure race car that is street legal and BMW i8 is overly expensive excuse of what it could have been.

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Or like BMW did? (i8).

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's based on a stock car, but quite a lot of modifications had to be done before entering the race...

The rear Wheel Arches had to be modified to make room for the larger tires and the ABS had to be reprogrammed. The photos also illustrate that it wasn't just a stock car anymore... Althought it's impressive that the suspension etc seems to be stock.

The modifications made were ones that were REQUIRED to be in the race that no standard car could do without.

The fact that this near as makes no difference stock car took 13th place amongst race cars just shows how good and how over engineered that truly are. I honestly cannot think of another car that could do what the GT3 RS did.

M cars while decent at the track will never be the type of track cars even regular Porsches let alone GT cars are. They're ok for a session but will quickly show where and what they lack. They are better as street cars and the way BMW is going thats really all they're good for.
While BMW says the m3/m4 is more track ready I'm sure the caveat is having their ceramic brakes which I'm sure are pretty good but at the same time, their turbo engines leave a lot to be desired as far as cooling and ability to withstand hard use on the track.