GT350 or SS 1LE v F8x ZCP on track

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Overlooked lap data coming out of NCM where Andy Pilgrim (pro) is running hot laps with stock cars.

SS 1LE ran a 2:15.6 on the stock Eagle F1 Supercar 3 (not 3R) tires.

Base GT350 got a host of upgrades for '19 -- aero front & rear, Cup 2 (although not the fast variety), updated springs, dampers, braking calibration. GT350R also got some updates.

'20 GT350 ran a 2:15.1. ('20 GT350R 2:13.6.)

For reference, 991.2 GT3 is 2:11.1.

Consistent with what I've experienced, except on a tighter, shorter circuit the slightly modified 1LE is GT350R territory or better, and runs the GT3 unreasonably close. Counterintuitive if you think of the Camaro as big and cumbersome, but straights are where the GT3 gains chunks of time.

NCM front max speeds:

991.2 GT3: 144 mph
GT350R 136 mph
1LE: 134 mph

Back "straight":

991.2 GT3: 144 mph
GT350R: 136 mph
1LE: 132 mph

Used 1LE is like 30k nowadays. Pretty ridiculous.

I did my first few trackdays in the F80 at NCM back in 2017. Just grabbing from my "fastest lap" my Vmax were (grand full):

Front: 132mph
Mid: 130mph
Back: 127mph

Obviously those aren't very good but it at least gives you an idea. I had very little experience with the F80 at that point (and first time with high-ish HP), and was on RE11 tires. My plan was to go back earlier this summer with the expectation of going for sub-:20's with RE71s and more experience (but I bailed on the event).

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Nice data thanks for sharing. Does Andy have data in F8x for comparison?

(I’m seeing 2:20 as the fastest time on our forums, m3cs on ?pirelli slicks?)

I ran a very slow :23 a few years ago, and a more-prep'd M2 did a :20 this year. I'd expect a decent driver to get under :20 with minimal mods (no slicks).

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

comparing pro to non pro is not apples to apples.

Mr Clay did 2:01 at VIR in my CS with the suspension actively trying to kill him... no one else is going to match that time

That's a great time.

I was really hoping to get down there this year and chase after Provost time of :03 and :05 (1LE) since I've ran rather close to his times at Watkins and MidO (this year he has been quite a bit faster though so the gap is probably larger now).

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Probably the best reference point available for stock ZCP. Figure it's the better part of 2 seconds off a 718 GTS? (Speculating...)

Idk...I feel like it might be even more of a gap to the GTS.

NCM caters to a well-prep'd car with camber or a good chassis (corvette, porsche, etc.). A stock F8X (non GTS or CS) has more trouble putting the power down and making quick transitions (look at how aggressive he is being with the 1LE), which is important at NCM.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Idk...I feel like it might be even more of a gap to the GTS.

NCM caters to a well-prep'd car with camber or a good chassis (corvette, porsche, etc.). A stock F8X (non GTS or CS) has more trouble putting the power down and making quick transitions (look at how aggressive he is being with the 1LE), which is important at NCM.

I can see that. Absolutely chucks the R in some spots too.

Think the ZCP is just pretty outgunned in this group.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

I did my first few trackdays in the F80 at NCM back in 2017. Just grabbing from my "fastest lap" my Vmax were (grand full):

can you donate your car to Andy P so he can get some laps in and bring some data to compare with the other cars

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

.
Consistent with what I've experienced, except on a tighter, shorter circuit the slightly modified 1LE is GT350R territory or better, and runs the GT3 unreasonably close. Counterintuitive if you think of the Camaro as big and cumbersome, but straights are where the GT3 gains chunks of time.

NCM front max speeds:

991.2 GT3: 144 mph
GT350R 136 mph
1LE: 134 mph

Back "straight":

991.2 GT3: 144 mph
GT350R: 136 mph
1LE: 132 mph

Rdok[/url]

If you regularly track against 991 GT3s there is no doubt that they are extremely fast in straights. That is where they get their advantage.
They have good power, low weight and exceptional gearing.

In turns, any random piece of shit with suspension, sticky wide tires and a decent driver will corner fast


I don't share the awe of the 1LE that seems prevalent here. It has massive sticky tires and suspension designed to handle them, hence it's fast. If you get wheels and tires plus suspension onto an F8X it'll be faster.

The 1LE already comes fully optimized for track use. You won't be able to fit wider tires and I'm not sure how much you'll gain from suspension. But it's heavy and not very powerful, which would limit its speed for someone who has 3k for suspension and 1k for wheels to spend in an F8X

Regardless the 1LE and ZL1s are like our brothers from a different mother. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, so I don't take consider them rivals or take pleasure passing them.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Regardless the 1LE and ZL1s are like our brothers from a different mother. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, so I don't take consider them rivals or take pleasure passing them.

That's funny...

SS 1LE didn't get the really legit track rubber though. Supercar 3R came on the ZL1 1LE, but not the SS 1LE. Supercar 3 is stock on the SS 1LE and probably a small step up in track performance from PSS/PS4S, but not on the level of 3R, Trofeo R, NT01, that group.

Like I said previously, stock SS 1LE (Supercar 3) runs my Z/28 with Trofeo R very close.

Fit an equivalent track-oriented tire + alignment and it jumps into GT3, GT350R, GTS territory. Just in my experience.

As for the Camaro team's approach being crudely effective, yep. I think there's a little more to it than being a big piece o' shit with springs and wide tires, but let's not split hairs. I'm not a fan because of the refinement.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

That's funny...

SS 1LE didn't get the really legit track rubber though. Supercar 3R came on the ZL1 1LE, but not the SS 1LE. Supercar 3 is stock on the SS 1LE and probably a small step up in track performance from PSS/PS4S, but not on the level of 3R, Trofeo R, NT01, that group.

Like I said previously, stock SS 1LE (Supercar 3) runs my Z/28 with Trofeo R very close.

Fit an equivalent track-oriented tire + alignment and it jumps into GT3, GT350R, GTS territory. Just in my experience.

As for the Camaro team's approach being crudely effective, yep. I think there's a little more to it than being a big piece o' shit with springs and wide tires, but let's not split hairs. I'm not a fan because of the refinement.

The POS with sticky tires was not meant at the Camaro. It was just a general statement. The Camaro is not a POS

The 1LE is effective and comes ready to roll right away which is what matters in the end. I'd like to buy a third track car and sometimes think of one of these, but I think it would be significantly slower than the E90 or the CS at a big boy track as both of those cars have sticky tires and suspension that can handle them

A 1LE would have the same problem as an E9X M3 when fighting a 991 GT3 at a fast track if the gt3 driver is good: the 1le and e9x just lack power. The GT3 will disappear in every single straight.
A beautiful thing of the CS for example is it can keep up just fine in straights. So the same driver that was gaining time in turns and braking zones in an e9x vs a 991 gt3, when in something like a CS that can keep up in straights... well it's game over for the gt3.

Making a car faster in turns is 'easy'. MCS suspension, square 10.5 wheels and you're good to go. However gaining 50whp reliably and without overheating is incredibly hard

PS: love the 7L NA concept of the Z28. So much win in a single package

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The POS with sticky tires was not meant at the Camaro. It was just a general statement. The Camaro is not a POS. A hacked together E36 M3 is IMO

The 1LE is effective which is what matters in the end. I'd like to buy a third track car and sometimes think of one of these, but I think it would be significantly slower than the E90 or the CS at a big boy track as both of those cars have sticky tires and suspension that can handle them

A 1LE would have the same problem as an E9X M3 when fighting a 991 GT3 at a fast track if the gt3 driver is good: the 1le and e9x just lack power. The GT3 will disappear in every single straight.
A beautiful thing of the CS for example is it can keep up just fine in straights. So the same driver that was gaining time in turns and braking zones in an e9x vs a 991 gt3, when in something like a CS that can keep up in straights... well it's game over for the gt3.

Making a car faster in turns is 'easy'. MCS suspension, square 10.5 wheels and you're good to go. However gaining 50whp reliably and without overheating is incredibly hard

PS: love the 7L NA concept of the Z28. So much win in a single package

Yeah, and I should say that my experiences with the SS 1LE are not at a properly fast track. Run with them at a 2 mile circuit, top speed in the 12X-13X range. VIR, Watkins, Sebring, I'm sure you're right.

Chased down by that 7.0 at Sebring (in my E90) is where I decided I probably needed one. Picked one up when there were dozens marked down and collecting dust. Thought I'd keep as stupid entertainment for a season, 3 yrs later and I don't think it's going anywhere.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Yeah, and I should say that my experiences with the SS 1LE are not at a properly fast track. Run with them at a 2 mile circuit, top speed in the 12X-13X range. VIR, Watkins, Sebring, I'm sure you're right.

Chased down by that 7.0 at Sebring (in my E90) is where I decided I probably needed one. Picked one up when there were dozens marked down and collecting dust. Thought I'd keep as stupid entertainment for a season, 3 yrs later and I don't think it's going anywhere.

That 7.0 is going to be entertaining for a while with all the turbocrap nowadays!

Do you know what kind of NA power can be reliably extracted from the 1LE?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

comparing pro to non pro is not apples to apples.

Mr Clay did 2:01 at VIR in my CS with the suspension actively trying to kill him... no one else is going to match that time

Was it the rear dampers that were “trying to kill him”? Sub 2:00s with sorted suspension?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

That's funny...

SS 1LE didn't get the really legit track rubber though. Supercar 3R came on the ZL1 1LE, but not the SS 1LE. Supercar 3 is stock on the SS 1LE and probably a small step up in track performance from PSS/PS4S, but not on the level of 3R, Trofeo R, NT01, that group.

Like I said previously, stock SS 1LE (Supercar 3) runs my Z/28 with Trofeo R very close.

Fit an equivalent track-oriented tire + alignment and it jumps into GT3, GT350R, GTS territory. Just in my experience.

As for the Camaro team's approach being crudely effective, yep. I think there's a little more to it than being a big piece o' shit with springs and wide tires, but let's not split hairs. I'm not a fan because of the refinement.

The SS 1LE stock tires are pretty sticky. I'd say in the NT01/PSC2/RE71R range. The Supercar 3R are a step above, in the PSC2R/Trefeo-R range.

I've refrained to post on this thread so far, because it is fundamentally very difficult to truly compare lap time potential of different cars. Journalistic publications will always compare completely stock cars. I think this is meaningful for the average consumer as it allows to compare the ultimate performance prowess of different cars. However, these comparisons are not that meaningful for track rats as most of us in this sub-forum, because cars have different performance margins left within them. For instance, the F8X is massively under-tired from the factory. Simply fitting stickier tires to an F8X makes a huge difference in lap times, and the stock suspension with only camber plates added can take a fair bit more tire. Further, comparing times during amateur track days is also quite difficult because of varying driver skill, state of tune of the cars, tires fitted and wear on the tires.

I have 3 good track buddies than run the SS-1LE. It is one great machine for the price . All three of my friends are quite decent drivers and they have together tried quite a few different tire combinations. They were pretty much running the same times as the stock 1LE tires when using NT01, RE-71R and PSC2, hence my earlier comment. Those times were on par with my old 2015 M4 on NT01 and about 2 seconds off my pace in my M4cs on NT01. One of these buddies tried the Supercar-3R and gained over 2 seconds a lap . The drawback is that they were shot after just 2 track days. With Hoosiers, he was 2 seconds faster than with the Supercar-3R and said the suspension had no problem handling the grip, the brakes started to struggle though.

I cannot comment on the GT350/GT350R as I have not come across one that was well driven. But I have to say, the ones that I've crossed really sounded awesome .

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Was it the rear dampers that were “trying to kill him”? Sub 2:00s with sorted suspension?

Yes it was! Wrong valving from the factory
For sure he can do sub 2 at VIR with functioning suspension and a R1 tire but I can't.

Without aero and at full weight, maybe with a R1S we can drop 2min at WGI. Not sure though, we may need aero for that

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I have 3 good track buddies than run the SS-1LE. It is one great machine for the price . All three of my friends are quite decent drivers and they have together tried quite a few different tire combinations. They were pretty much running the same times as the stock 1LE tires when using NT01, RE-71R and PSC2, hence my earlier comment. Those times were on par with my old 2015 M4 on NT01 and about 2 seconds off my pace in my M4cs on NT01. One of these buddies tried the Supercar-3R and gained over 2 seconds a lap . The drawback is that they were shot after just 2 track days. With Hoosiers, he was 2 seconds faster than with the Supercar-3R and said the suspension had no problem handling the grip, the brakes started to struggle though.

I cannot comment on the GT350/GT350R as I have not come across one that was well driven. But I have to say, the ones that I've crossed really sounded awesome .

Pretty surprised no gains with the NT01 vs. the Supercar 3. Perhaps Goodyear did a standout job matching the OE tire with the 1LE chassis. I struggle to think you'd run equal times in your CS NT01 vs. Supercar 3.

-2+ seconds 3 to 3R sounds right though.

As for comparing cars and lap times, agreed in general. But if you're boring enough and tend to stick to one track year after year (after year...), a pretty useful and reliable data set emerges. My commentary is based upon fastest recorded laps (w/ best drivers) at my home track only. Not Motor Trend math, as is popular here.

Back to the original question, I know of no stock ZCP that runs close to even with the SS 1LE at its best. And no ZCP + tires that runs in GT350R, 991.1 GT3, GTS territory. SS 1LE does.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

That 7.0 is going to be entertaining for a while with all the turbocrap nowadays!

Do you know what kind of NA power can be reliably extracted from the 1LE?

Dude... http://hennesseyperformance.com/vehi...pe575-upgrade/

I don't know cost, maybe 10k? Pick up a slightly used SS 1LE for low 30's, add power, suspension basics, brake upgrades, tires & wheels for another chunk. All in <50k for god knows what kind of track pace...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Back to the original question, I know of no stock ZCP that runs close to even with the SS 1LE at its best. And no ZCP + tires that runs in GT350R, 991.1 GT3, GTS territory. SS 1LE does.

Careful there. At the Glen the CS can do 2:06 with just tires, not even wheels. Just swapping for a set of oe sized re71s.

I've been going there for years. I've only seen a couple 991 gt3 and gt3 rs that are in the 2:06 range.

Like CanAut I've also never run into a well driven gt350/1le/zl1 but obviously they exist.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Pretty surprised no gains with the NT01 vs. the Supercar 3. Perhaps Goodyear did a standout job matching the OE tire with the 1LE chassis. I struggle to think you'd run equal times in your CS NT01 vs. Supercar 3.

-2+ seconds 3 to 3R sounds right though.

As for comparing cars and lap times, agreed in general. But if you're boring enough and tend to stick to one track year after year (after year...), a pretty useful and reliable data set emerges. My commentary is based upon fastest recorded laps (w/ best drivers) at my home track only. Not Motor Trend math, as is popular here.

Back to the original question, I know of no stock ZCP that runs close to even with the SS 1LE at its best. And no ZCP + tires that runs in GT350R, 991.1 GT3, GTS territory. SS 1LE does.

My local track is rather high speed with few technical sections (it is an ex-F1 track). And yes, with it being only a 90 minute drive away from where I live and it being a pretty epic track, I tend to be "boring enough" go there more often than not and so do my track buddies in their SS 1LE. But we do also visit other tracks over the season for some variety .

Regarding the SS 1LE on 3R, he was only very slightly faster than I am. I tend to make up a fair portion of time on the straights, where my CS pulls significantly stronger than the SS 1LE (15~20km/h top speed difference on the back straight).

I am curious to see the lap time difference on my CS between the NT01 and stock PSC2. I reckon there's probably not that much difference. I might try that just for fun next season.

There's no SS 1LE that can hang with a well driven and properly tired 991 GT3 at my local track, you need a LS1 1LE for that.

IMO, all those comparisons are only in good fun since none are true apples-to-apples, there are just too many variable. To me, as long as we are a bunch of friends running in the same time bracket to have fun on track, it is all that really matters .

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Careful there. At the Glen the CS can do 2:06 with just tires, not even wheels. Just swapping for a set of oe sized re71s.

I've been going there for years. I've only seen a couple 991 gt3 and gt3 rs that are in the 2:06 range.

Like CanAut I've also never run into a well driven gt350/1le/zl1 but obviously they exist.

Talking ZCP, not CS. I don't underestimate CS advantages over ZCP and track potential.

The gaps, as I've driven and experienced them (all stock form):

Base/ZCP F8X: 1:44-1:45
Z/28 & SS 1LE: 1:41-1:42
GT3, GT350R, GTS: sub-1:40

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

My local track is rather high speed with few technical sections (it is an ex-F1 track). And yes, with it being only a 90 minute drive away from where I live and it being a pretty epic track, I tend to be "boring enough" go there more often than not and so do my track buddies in their SS 1LE. But we do also visit other tracks over the season for some variety .

Regarding the SS 1LE on 3R, he was only very slightly faster than I am. I tend to make up a fair portion of time on the straights, where my CS pulls significantly stronger than the SS 1LE (15~20km/h top speed difference on the back straight).

I am curious to see the lap time difference on my CS between the NT01 and stock PSC2. I reckon there's probably not that much difference. I might try that just for fun next season.

There's no SS 1LE that can hang with a well driven and properly tired 991 GT3 at my local track, you need a LS1 1LE for that.

IMO, all those comparisons are only in good fun since none are true apples-to-apples, there are just too many variable. To me, as long as we are a bunch of friends running in the same time bracket to have fun on track, it is all that really matters .

Only in good fun indeed! Just contributing my firsthand. And no doubt track layout plays into this. The 1LE shines on my home circuit -- hairpins, very technical, challenging weight transfers, not a big power circuit. Big part of the reason I'm blown away by the Camaro's progress. Not long ago the idea of it shining on a handling-focused circuit was laughable.

Despite the abbreviated straights, GTS shows its legs similar to the CS. It's up 8-9 mph on my Z/28 on the back straight, 7 mph on the front. GTS acceleration through 3rd, 4th, and into 5th is ridiculous.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Talking ZCP, not CS. I don't underestimate CS advantages over ZCP and track potential.

The gaps, as I've driven and experienced them (all stock form):

Base/ZCP F8X: 1:44-1:45
Z/28 & SS 1LE: 1:41-1:42
GT3, GT350R, GTS: sub-1:40

When you say "stock form", I assume you imply on stock tire?

For reference, I am 2.5 seconds faster on a ~1:50 lap with my CS than I was with my base 2015 M4 on the same tires, wheels and brakes with very similar suspension tweaks (camber plates and lowering springs). IMO, it is a combination of small improvements in every area (suspension, EDC, ABS, e-diff, aero, weight and power) that work in unison that makes the CS meaningfully faster. I have not owned a ZCP, so I cannot offer insight on where it sits between these.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

When you say "stock form", I assume you imply on stock tire?

For reference, I am 2.5 seconds faster on a ~1:50 lap with my CS than I was with my base 2015 M4 on the same tires, wheels and brakes with very similar suspension tweaks (camber plates and lowering springs). I have not owned a ZCP, so I cannot offer insight on where it sits between these.

Yes sir. Stock including tires. Nice gains with the CS.

Another reference point to add to the list above, bit more lap time context: F80 M3 ZCP, full M Performance parts pack (coils, exhaust, carbon) on Conti ExtremeContact Sport = mid-1:43. Probably capable of a bit more. This one: