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      09-26-2013, 04:30 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by b33g33 View Post
The 2500+ enthusiasts who bought and love their 1M's vehemently disagree with you.

Last time I saw a 1M was just two nights ago. The stance, and especially fenders, can't help but make one smile. I've never had chance to drive one, but by the stats and reports it must be a riot.
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      09-26-2013, 04:34 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post

all im saying is BMW made the S54 in 1999/2000. and HPF hacked together a turbo in mid 2000s. BMW couldn't pull off a better engine?

don't get me wrong the S54 is going to be cool. but it just leaves you wondering what they could have done if they werent trying to make a good car/engine and weren't just looking for ways to cut costs and ///Marketing

by ///Marketing i mean that they couldn't have the M3 out-perform the M5.
Making high RPM power with a turbo motor is easy if you don't mind turbo lag, the problem for M is satisfying both the people who want instant throttle response and low-RPM torque and the people who want huge turbos that can flow plenty of air and maintain 18psi of boost at 8,00RPM. I don't know if you've experienced an HPF car in person but they have some serious turbo lag, much more than most M drivers would be willing to put up with and waaayy more than an N54 or N55.

Search the web and you'll find some complaints about the MP4-12c's turbo lag, too. I read a forum post from an owner who said it felt pretty boring below 3,000RPM
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      09-26-2013, 04:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by e92_m3 View Post
I really don't know why some guys here make the redline limit a huge deal. IMHO, 7500rpm on the F80 m3 is not bad at all. It's not that BMW made the redline on the F80 M3 only at 6000rpm.

The 1968 Honda S800 has a 9,500rpm redline. Yes, you read that right. 9,500rpm redline! The acoustics may be there, fun to drive, but if your into auto-x or racing, it is not faster than a 1989 mazda miata.

I guess it's about the engine note sound for some guys here. I'm more of a performance guy, so it does not matter if the F80 M3 has a lower redline than the e90/e92/e93 m3. 7500rpm vs 8300rpm.

1968 Honda S600 specs:
http://thisoldhonda.org/generations_detail.php?ID=26

1989 Miata specs:
http://www.motortrend.com/classic/ro...a/viewall.html

Here's a link for '64 Honda S600 that has a 9500rpm redline:
http://nzhondas.com/goo-tube/113015-...ne-1964-a.html

Here's a link for a '68 S800 that has a 10,000rpm redline!
http://www.reddit.com/r/carporn/comm...line_1217x810/

Jay Leno's high revving '64 Honda S600:
Nice reminder; let me add another one that I couldn't let go forgotten:

Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale and its 10,000 rev limiter 2.0 liter V8 engine, from 1967

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_33_Stradale

and a video with sound:

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      09-26-2013, 04:42 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Making high RPM power with a turbo motor is easy if you don't mind turbo lag, the problem for M is satisfying both the people who want instant throttle response and low-RPM torque and the people who want huge turbos that can flow plenty of air and maintain 18psi of boost at 8,00RPM. I don't know if you've experienced an HPF car in person but they have some serious turbo lag, much more than most M drivers would be willing to put up with and waaayy more than an N54 or N55.

Search the web and you'll find some complaints about the MP4-12c's turbo lag, too. I read a forum post from an owner who said it felt pretty boring below 3,000RPM
Like you always wanted your supercar to be exciting under 3k rpm, take the car away from the cheque book enthusiast.
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      09-26-2013, 04:46 PM   #71
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Hahahah I agree with you, I actually love a turbo motor with a little lag as long as it has a huge surge of power and rips hard to redline but there are tons of people who would complain about any lag. BMW had to compromise.
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      09-26-2013, 04:50 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
Am I missing something here? The 1M was 335bhp and the F8x is 430bhp. That's a near 30% difference (28.5) not the quoted 20%. If we're assuming all 1Ms make more than advertised, shouldn't the same be done for the F8x given BMW's history with TTs?
Are we sure that F8X has 430bhp and not ps? Maybe I missed that, so if 430 is ps then the difference is roughly 26%. If that is bhp then difference is as you said, higher at 28%; but I believe it is closer to 20% or 25% max, and once someone will put them on back to back dynos we will be able to confirm that. For a variety of reasons (mostly political/marketing concerns) 1M was clearly underrated while I don't see how a 18.9 psi (essentially) same displacement M4 will be underrated THAT much. Anyway, it was not my main point and I have no problems at all accepting that indeed it has 28.5% or else, more power
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Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-26-2013 at 04:56 PM..
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      09-26-2013, 04:54 PM   #73
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It seems a lot of people are not giving much weight to the fact that the new engine holds max power over a 2300 RPM range starting at 5000 RPM. This was not the case with the 1M where it peaks at ~5900 RPM and then quickly falls off. Having such a large peak power band would give you a huge amount of flexibility in your driving profile and that shouldn't be underestimated.

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      09-26-2013, 05:00 PM   #74
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I prefer the e9x display pod if it looks like that. It looks like a noline 3 series guage besides the lit up redline.

Why cant it share the guages from m5/6?

BPM needs to do some retrofitting starting now.
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      09-26-2013, 05:02 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat View Post
Yeah it's pretty hilarious really. People are touting the old M3's engine for it's "hard pull to redline". The new motor produces the maximum hp the m3 slowly built up to over 8400 rpm FOR over 1000 RPM. The build up is quicker, and it produces a substantially higher amount of torque throughout the rev range. Yet we're complaining?

If you had two career paths, both on a 10 year contract, both starting with $100k in pay. One gave you a 21% raise the first five years, but none after that (pay after 5 years being $259k) while the other gave you a 10% raise every year (pay after 10 years being $259k). Are you going to take the first job or are you going to complain that you wouldn't get a raise every year and take the second?!
Given those choices, then yes the S55 power delivery is the faster one.

There is another option that is not available, and that is S65 type power and torque build up in a 'big turbo' style. The only difference to an S65 would be a poor 'relative' torque curve below say 3k RPM, but the pay off would be 550hp at 8k RPM.

On track you, as a driver, would be rewarded for keeping the engine 'on the boil'. Scenery becomes a blur at 4,500rpm and you have to watch the RPM needle like a hawk because it flies up the dial. Even on the street, with 3 litre capacity, it will 'pootle' OK at low revs, but when the need arises, 2 clicks on the DSG down paddle will wake the beast. That is a real turbo car, and if BMW had the guts to build that, GT3 owners would be flocking, instead of E350/535i/A6 owners. Oh well we can but dream
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      09-26-2013, 05:04 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Does it matter when taken the dyno curves shifting before redline will give a more satisfying experience and better performance than running above redline?

Looks like M owners are going to have to get use to shifting a bit before redline if they want to achieve maximum power and torque combined. You can even see in the graphs how it nose dives down after 6500ish from what I can remember from those pics. Its not going to be like the S65 engine where it makes power, more and more to redline which is 8250 stock...When I got out of my E63 M6 (stroked to 5.7L) FBO and got a stock E92 M3, the M3 literally felt like a damn turtle haha.. Im being serious too. I started to mod it and a buddy of mine had a 07 E90 335i with a JB3, DCI, and intercooler asked if I wanted to run and I literally laughed at him and told him he is a lunatic since I had ESS tune, Gruppe M intake, AA exhaust. Well lets just say with him, his wife, and his son which was 6 at the time in back did a 50mph roll and I jumped out with a big smile on my face and then all of a sudden i see this stock looking 4 door 3 series pulling my car...I looked down to make sure everything was ok and I was in M mode and was looking around like what the hell is wrong with my car.....Anyways, we did that probably 8 times and it was always about 3 cars ahead of me...I was so so so embarrassed, especially how cocky I was being. Sold the M3 2 days later and found the perfect E92 335i M-sport and went to town on it getting everything since I had extra cash from the M3...

So M owners, dont expect this car to feel like your E92 M3 or any past M's you have had....Because this is basically a carbon copy of an N54 with better oil cooling, suspension, brakes, IAT's with that new intercooler thats air to water....Oh not to mention its what....3300 pounds with 90% fuel in it.....???? THIS CAR IS GOING TO BE A ROCKET!!!!!
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      09-26-2013, 05:15 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostaholic786 View Post
Oh not to mention its what....3300 pounds with 90% fuel in it.....???? THIS CAR IS GOING TO BE A ROCKET!!!!!
Is that even official or are you speculating? Haven't read that yet.
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      09-26-2013, 05:18 PM   #78
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I do. I'm not a fan of the larger gauge cluster or the displays integrated into it.
Same. Even the e9x i was whatever about but really like after owning it. Getting into the e46 and starting an ///M was a great experience. The gauges really gave you butterflies in your stomach nomsayin. These look no fun. No fun at all.

They probably need to be that big so when the aftermarket tunes and mid range torque kick in you can still read the rpms as the acceleration blurs your vision
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      09-26-2013, 05:18 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ACE_M3 View Post
BMW M models come with Last User Mode enabled, which will start the car with stop/start in the same mode as when the car was shut down
No they don't. At least noton the M5. I had to have mine coded for that feature.
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      09-26-2013, 05:19 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by boostaholic786 View Post
Oh not to mention its what....3300 pounds with 90% fuel in it.....???? THIS CAR IS GOING TO BE A ROCKET!!!!!

Is that even official or are you speculating? Haven't read that yet.

Official. That is what we were told at the M3/M4 workshops: 3300 pounds without driver and with 90% fuel.

We've listed it in the official specs guide: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=892746
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      09-26-2013, 05:21 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns View Post
It seems a lot of people are not giving much weight to the fact that the new engine holds max power over a 2300 RPM range starting at 5000 RPM. This was not the case with the 1M where it peaks at ~5900 RPM and then quickly falls off. Having such a large peak power band would give you a huge amount of flexibility in your driving profile and that shouldn't be underestimated.

Yes, but only if you go with the official dyno chart, HOWEVER and sincerely not to start a discussion here without any meaningful benefits for our topic, I have to say that all of us 1M owners/drivers/tuners wittnessed for the last two years that peak power indeed was reached way earlier (slightly over 5000 not 5900) and from there was quite flat (hold) till around 6000, and even after that it was "falling" waaay much smoother than the chart you just posted indicates, hp fall was nicely smooth but peaked earlier than official stats. The torque on the other hand was NOT peaked at 1500 rpm but more like 2200-2300 if I remember correctly and starting to fall after around 5000, and unlike the hp more steeply, and really falling after 6000.

There are so many dyno charts, including from tuners like GIAC and Evolve who wanted to have some baseline before implementing their tunes, that it might well worth making a web or 1M forum search about that for anyone who wants to dig more into this. These are not same motors at all, there are certain similarities, some pretty striking ones and that's it. That's pretty much how I could summarize it for now.
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      09-26-2013, 05:25 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
direct injection allows for higher compression ratios - its not THAT much lower. s54 was 11.5 to 1 n55 is 10.2 to 1. its not 8 to 1 or 9 to 1 like you would see in turbo subarus.



also - s54 longevity was never an issue. people beat the CRAP out of it (the turbo ones) and rarely had a problem.



all im saying is BMW made the S54 in 1999/2000. and HPF hacked together a turbo in mid 2000s. BMW couldn't pull off a better engine?

don't get me wrong the S54 is going to be cool. but it just leaves you wondering what they could have done if they werent trying to make a good car/engine and weren't just looking for ways to cut costs and ///Marketing

by ///Marketing i mean that they couldn't have the M3 out-perform the M5.
All very good points. Just like Porsche holding the cayman back..wouldn't want to tread on big brother turf.
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      09-26-2013, 05:25 PM   #83
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Ugh, do folks actually really care about this stuff? I might say cool if we were looking at a 9000 redline. 7500? Ok....

I also see a lot of NON-M owners voicing their opinions and getting on ACTUAL M owners. Come on guys. Leave it be.
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      09-26-2013, 05:26 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Making high RPM power with a turbo motor is easy if you don't mind turbo lag, the problem for M is satisfying both the people who want instant throttle response and low-RPM torque and the people who want huge turbos that can flow plenty of air and maintain 18psi of boost at 8,00RPM. I don't know if you've experienced an HPF car in person but they have some serious turbo lag, much more than most M drivers would be willing to put up with and waaayy more than an N54 or N55.

Search the web and you'll find some complaints about the MP4-12c's turbo lag, too. I read a forum post from an owner who said it felt pretty boring below 3,000RPM
the e46 m3 was fast enough without boost. the boost is just a bonus.
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      09-26-2013, 05:46 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I completely agree esp. the bold part. However, I think you feel this is more or less a win, whereas it's pretty disappointing for me. Only time and drives by journalists will really tell us about the throttle response.

In my most recent simulations the (approximate) shift points were less than redline in all gears except 1-2. In particular they were (that sim still is using a 7750 redline):

1-2: 7750 (redline)
2-3: 7100
3-4: 6600
4-5: 6500
5-6: 6300
6-7: 6200

This is simply the nature of the beast with a radically falling torque curve and flat power curve. The force at the wheels curves by gear vs. vehicle speed simply overlap and that is the ideal shift point for maximum performance. I guess we've pretty much known this since the revelation that the car would be turbo charged but it's really sinking in now. In short, other than in 1st gear, forget about the redline and forget about the corresponding thrills of a high redline. Redline will only be utilized for absolute drag racing starting in 1st gear.

Here is an interesting related question. Will the shift points for the DCT be programmed for maximum performance which means essentially short shifting? Ugh...
That is a good question, don't remember much info regarding the DCT in the new car too, practically same as the one in E9X?

By the way, I don't really consider it as mind blowing news but yes I guess, having driven a nice little M car since two years it is less of an issue for me to worry about the response and revs.

I don't remember any occasion the car doesn't surprise and excite me, it always puts a smile on my face and this feeling doesn't get old so I have some faith in M engineers that they should have done it even better in the M4/M3, why and how they couldn't?

Just it is a big car, that's what really bothers me, nothing about the engine.
Bigger maybe, but possibly the same weight, wider/longer wheel base and more/better delivered power. You keep comparing the two, sure they're both TT I6s, but even I am surprised with how far M went to reengineer the S/N55. My guess is delivery/responsiveness will be much better than a mildly tuned N54.

The interesting foil is clearly the E92, which is philosophically a very different car.

Still wish we could jam an S65 into the Z4...production #s are low enough to keep the CAFE impact small.
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      09-26-2013, 05:57 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward
I feel like this car will be a major step up in chassis and handling compared to the E92, but I'm just not at all excited about this engine.

I had a 335is before an M3 and I had a lot of fun in it but to me the S65 is more fun. One thing for sure is that extracting power and fun out of the M4 will be incredibly easy. Almost too accessible for the typical M3/4 driver. I'd much rather see the M4 with an M3 GTS motor in it. That I could get into. The styling is great on the M4 but a bit busy. I already like it but I'm just afraid I'm outgrowing the looks of this car as a whole.
Well said
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      09-26-2013, 06:02 PM   #87
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I highly doubt that there will be any S65 owners disappointed by the S55... if there are, then they will be really disappointed when an S55 flies by them at the track lol.
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      09-26-2013, 06:04 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostaholic786 View Post
Looks like M owners are going to have to get use to shifting a bit before redline if they want to achieve maximum power and torque combined. You can even see in the graphs how it nose dives down after 6500ish from what I can remember from those pics. Its not going to be like the S65 engine where it makes power, more and more to redline which is 8250 stock...When I got out of my E63 M6 (stroked to 5.7L) FBO and got a stock E92 M3, the M3 literally felt like a damn turtle haha.. Im being serious too. I started to mod it and a buddy of mine had a 07 E90 335i with a JB3, DCI, and intercooler asked if I wanted to run and I literally laughed at him and told him he is a lunatic since I had ESS tune, Gruppe M intake, AA exhaust. Well lets just say with him, his wife, and his son which was 6 at the time in back did a 50mph roll and I jumped out with a big smile on my face and then all of a sudden i see this stock looking 4 door 3 series pulling my car...I looked down to make sure everything was ok and I was in M mode and was looking around like what the hell is wrong with my car.....Anyways, we did that probably 8 times and it was always about 3 cars ahead of me...I was so so so embarrassed, especially how cocky I was being. Sold the M3 2 days later and found the perfect E92 335i M-sport and went to town on it getting everything since I had extra cash from the M3...
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