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      03-11-2014, 11:58 AM   #23
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With how good the DCT and 8 sp Autos are getting I see manuals dying really fast.
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      03-11-2014, 12:00 PM   #24
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DCT is amazing and the ZF8 speed is really nice but manual is the way 2 go for my money.
Although its still a new car to hit the dealers, finding a M235i in a manual for a test drive has been frustrating.
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      03-11-2014, 12:06 PM   #25
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Had a Manual transmission car for about 1 year and half. Then got an automatic not gonna lie I miss driving Manual made me focus more on driving, less on the radio and phone, gonna get into a new lease in about 2 years (still some time away) but I'm considering a Manual again let's see. Learned on my own best thing I ever did.
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      03-11-2014, 12:13 PM   #26
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Just tell me, how do you go from a stop light with wheel spin - for a little fun - in a non-manual gearbox ? In an automatic, do you keep stressing the torque converter with brake boosting for tens of seconds until the light turns green ? And how do you do this with a DCT ? Do you have to engage the (sometimes nonexisting) launch control ?
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      03-11-2014, 12:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindside_137 View Post
First the MT will go, then cars will eventually be autonomous....

I'm just glad the MT is still around for the time being. My next car will be an M3 6MT no question.
Never liked any manual transmission after 30 years driving and can't wait until all cars are autonomous...

Look, out of 20 cars in 30 years 14 were manual, 3 automatics and 3 dual-clutch. Each manual car had some kind of hesitation while upshifting, regardless of brand and type of clutch engagement, no matter how much I tried to learn tricks and maneuvers to avoid it, or how many driving schools I went so I could be a better manual driver. Never got that seamless acceleration, always some hesitation, the pause/stop/re-engage between some shifts (1-2, or 3-4) was there.

VW DSG and BMW M-DCT cured that forever. I still can shift manually, as fast as I can hit those paddles, and get the seamless acceleration that I always wanted, each time, all the time. To me, the best thing invented since the engine.

No more manuals for me. That was it.

Then we got the people around you in the street/highway. Too many people. Too many people that deeply, completely and absolutely despise driving and anything related to it. Too many distractions. To many things to do while driving except driving.

I cannot wait until all cars are autonomous. Then we can do weekends at driving skills-required, private racetracks just to remember what it made driving great. Really.
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      03-11-2014, 12:17 PM   #28
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In SoCal the dealerships do stock the occasional manual, but to get one with the options you want it's an order-only affair.

About half of my cars have been manual, the rest SMG or DSG/dual clutch automated.

I'm picking up a daily driver this weekend. Glad that E36 5MT's are aplenty. Hopefully in the future the M235i or 228i's can be found in manual at the dealer.

I am trying to do my part: Buying a new Mazdaspeed3 (6MT only) when they came out. And, I plan to buy one of the new 2 or 4 coupes in manual within the next two years to "Save the Manuals!"
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      03-11-2014, 12:17 PM   #29
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In the M-DCT you just deactivate the DSC and just punch it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlevrone View Post
Just tell me, how do you go from a stop light with wheel spin - for a little fun - in a non-manual gearbox ? In an automatic, do you keep stressing the torque converter with brake boosting for tens of seconds until the light turns green ? And how do you do this with a DCT ? Do you have to engage the (sometimes nonexisting) launch control ?
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      03-11-2014, 12:19 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
In the M-DCT you just deactivate the DSC and just punch it...
So if you don't have a 300hp turbo engine, you will just wait (forever and ever) for the wheels to spin, because you can't dump the clutch, right ?
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      03-11-2014, 12:20 PM   #31
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It is assuring to know that the take-rate of manual transmissions over the past 25 years has been relatively unchanged in the 3 series, if we are to take the author for his word.
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      03-11-2014, 12:20 PM   #32
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Maybe, and maybe Auto/DCTS are faster now but, I'm 62, going to retire in 3 years. I just ordered by dream retirement car. A 2014 BMW 228I MSport with MANUAL transmission replaceing a 128 with Steptronic. Manuals are simply just more fun.
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      03-11-2014, 12:21 PM   #33
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I don't see this as a war between which transmission is better, everyone will always have their own opinions, but I see as a business case for BMW. Even though the rate at which MT's are sold is decreasing, I'm pleased the number of takers has not. MT availability is BMW's main distinguishing factor and I hope BMW continues to cater to the enthusiast crowd and at least gives us the option of buying an MT car. If in the future the MT should become an extra-cost option, I wouldn't mind paying a "reasonable" amount to have it.

That said, every time I drive an auto/dct car..I crave for the feedback of an MT car. That's just me though
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      03-11-2014, 12:24 PM   #34
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Once BMW stops offering manuals, I'll stop buying new cars and peruse the used market instead.
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      03-11-2014, 12:24 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnitBobby View Post
one of the main reasons my future car will be an M4 is because of the manual transmission option

the fact that mercedes or lexus do not offer manual transmission gives a BIG advantage to bmw
+1
I would love to consider the IS 350 F but don't because they don't offer a manual. It is amazing anyone still buys them though! Everything is stacked against you! Lease specials only for autos, salesmen fight to sell you an automatic. The dealers don't order them so you almost have to buy on faith that the clutch-feel and shifting will be good.

The sales world is calling DCTs manuals and people are buying into it like cattle being led to pasture. I think most guys deep down know that the autos are really a sort of cop-out in the name of comfort so it eases their conscience when salespeople call them manuals. That they can shift faster and get better mileage in auto mode WHEN DRIVEN NORMALLY only helps sell them. Of course, so much of this faster 0-60 is based on launch control almost as much as the faster shifting. Take launch control out and things get closer because there is a lag in autos when they first engage. The final nail in the coffin is that F1 gearboxes use automatics so the only real reason is the control over the machine that you just don't get with an auto.

There is also the pride of knowing that you hit the shift just right and the ease that you can drift and manage the power with clutch and throttle. I think for transportation the auto is a great invention. I have a an auto minivan and love it in auto. I my wife has a DCT Auto mostly out of fear that she would be in traffic all the time, but car enthusiasts don't just buy a car for transportation. Electric steering is better than old hydraulic assist but you get so much more feedback from it that it makes driving a joy. Automatics are probably better if you don't care about long term reliability but they sap the so much of the joy and control.

I play soccer for fun and had a great run, faked out two people and was one on one with the goalie. I faked him and he slipped. I left the ball and went back to my spot and this kid yells at me, why didn't punch the ball in the goal in our friendly sunday pick up game? I told him because the joy was in the voyage to the goal using my skill to get around people. Scoring a goal didn't mean much anymore. I see automatics much the same way. The autos can score more goals for you, but the joy comes from using your skill and being master of the car, not the car being master of you.
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      03-11-2014, 12:26 PM   #36
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In the performance scene with track, drag and airstrip racing, the dual clutch transmission is king. The manual trans, like old 60's muscle cars, is simply an outdated technology. A novelty to some and will always be appreciated by certain groups.
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      03-11-2014, 12:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i
It is assuring to know that the take-rate of manual transmissions over the past 25 years has been relatively unchanged in the 3 series, if we are to take the author for his word.
Article says take rate has fallen, but pure raw number of MT cars sold has held steady.
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      03-11-2014, 12:28 PM   #38
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Always appreciated that manuals could at least be ordered and are available as a main differentiator. The A6 and E-class stopped offering manuals long ago, but the 5 always stood out, retaining the option in E39, E60 and F10 form.
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      03-11-2014, 12:29 PM   #39
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I find it ridiculous for anyone to claim that they want an automatic transmission based solely on it being faster. I'm sorry, please tell me again how can you 'feel' the difference between a 0-60 time of 5.9sec versus 6.1sec. If you race your car regularly with heavy mods etc., fine. If you simply prefer the simplicity of the automatic, fine. But if all you want is bragging rights on the specs of your car, or to say it's the fastest version of that particular car, I think you have the wrong priorities.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that's how I feel.

For my own case, I didn't think my wife wanted to learn to drive a manual, and now that she does want to learn I regret having gotten my F30 with the 8speed auto.
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      03-11-2014, 12:31 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E9TOU View Post
I don't see this as a war between which transmission is better, everyone will always have their own opinions, but I see as a business case for BMW. Even though the rate at which MT's are sold is decreasing, I'm pleased the number of takers has not. MT availability is BMW's main distinguishing factor and I hope BMW continues to cater to the enthusiast crowd and at least gives us the option of buying an MT car. If in the future the MT should become an extra-cost option, I wouldn't mind paying a "reasonable" amount to have it.

That said, every time I drive an auto/dct car..I crave for the feedback of an MT car. That's just me though

I agree! In my mind, it's pretty clear which one is "better", and it's not the manual one. IMO, the DCT and maybe even ZF8 transmissions are significantly more performance oriented, capable and even more economic than the 6MT in my 335i. To make things worse, the newer cars (in my experience) actually feel slower and underpowered with MT, as opposed to the new ZF8 or DCT.


It's an emotional decision to buy an MT, more so than ever. I hope BMW continue to offer it, as an upgrade cost option if they have to. Still worth it for me.
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      03-11-2014, 12:31 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlevrone View Post
Just tell me, how do you go from a stop light with wheel spin - for a little fun - in a non-manual gearbox ? In an automatic, do you keep stressing the torque converter with brake boosting for tens of seconds until the light turns green ? And how do you do this with a DCT ? Do you have to engage the (sometimes nonexisting) launch control ?
Smokey burnout?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/...n-old-function
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      03-11-2014, 12:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
In the performance scene with track, drag and airstrip racing, the dual clutch transmission is king. The manual trans, like old 60's muscle cars, is simply an outdated technology. A novelty to some and will always be appreciated by certain groups.
Reminds me of this Stallone Movie where people have digital sex because the real thing was "outdated' and messy. I have to agree, it's probably better but there is great joy from outdated things like that, strumming a real guitar instead of Garage Band or sky diving instead of watching it on iMax.
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      03-11-2014, 12:36 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindside_137 View Post
First the MT will go, then cars will eventually be autonomous....

I'm just glad the MT is still around for the time being. My next car will be an M3 6MT no question.
Never liked any manual transmission after 30 years driving and can't wait until all cars are autonomous...

Look, out of 20 cars in 30 years 14 were manual, 3 automatics and 3 dual-clutch. Each manual car had some kind of hesitation while upshifting, regardless of brand and type of clutch engagement, no matter how much I tried to learn tricks and maneuvers to avoid it, or how many driving schools I went so I could be a better manual driver. Never got that seamless acceleration, always some hesitation, the pause/stop/re-engage between some shifts (1-2, or 3-4) was there.

VW DSG and BMW M-DCT cured that forever. I still can shift manually, as fast as I can hit those paddles, and get the seamless acceleration that I always wanted, each time, all the time. To me, the best thing invented since the engine.

No more manuals for me. That was it.

Then we got the people around you in the street/highway. Too many people. Too many people that deeply, completely and absolutely despise driving and anything related to it. Too many distractions. To many things to do while driving except driving.

I cannot wait until all cars are autonomous. Then we can do weekends at driving skills-required, private racetracks just to remember what it made driving great. Really.
Funny you say that, as a kid I absolutely loved that "hesitation" with my dad rowing the gears in his vettes. The sound too when the engine/exhaust takes a break.
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      03-11-2014, 12:36 PM   #44
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The choice is easy for me. For any given car, as long as it offers an automatic transmission that outclasses its manual counter part, I would choose the automatic. Otherwise, I shift my own gears.

I don't understand those who "must" have manuals. I can understand those who only drive automatics (my wife), but why would ANY self proclaimed "car enthusiast" limit himself to a manual transmission?
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