Stick to Nitto NT01 or try BFG R1 (Or Toyo RR)

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by m4forum

This last weekend I had my first experience with Toyo RR at Mid Ohio. Previously I had BFG R1 but on E46. I really like the RRs very good grip level, consistent and predictable. They really like to talk at least at Mid Ohio. As the season goes on will drive them at different tracks.

The RRs do talk at the limit. 295/315s here and the balance is incredible compared to 275/305 with no other changes.

[m4forum]

Hope can get 5 or 6 weekends out of them.

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by m4forum

Hope can get 5 or 6 weekends out of them.

That’s a big negative. They’ll cord around 24 sessions. Also start to feel more and more slippery as they heat cycle. 5-6 weekends?... your only option is NT01.

** Well, mid-Ohio is easier on tires then my home track. But I don't think 10-12 days.

[m4forum]

I have been successful with BFG R1 with 5-6 weekends but they phase out. I am new to Toyo RR.

[mcvaughan]

Just mounted a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R. I won't be able to test until next weekend but reviews are favorable.

[m4forum]

Would be great to know feedback on them. What did you use before?

[BMMMW14]

Originally Posted by m4forum

This last weekend I had my first experience with Toyo RR at Mid Ohio. Previously I had BFG R1 but on E46. I really like the RRs very good grip level, consistent and predictable. They really like to talk at least at Mid Ohio. As the season goes on will drive them at different tracks.

Can I ask what hot pressures? I gave the RRs a try at Watkins a few weeks ago and did think they were consistent and they did talk (and seemed to like to be talking) but the outright grip was underwhelming, I ran them back to back with year old RE 71rs and they were consistently a second slower. Still going to think I can find some time in them, they gripped a heck of a lot better at 34 than 38-40, but the front left was rolling over on the sidewall quite a lot at that pressure.

[m4forum]

This was my first with RR. I believe because they talk "too much" can limit how push the driver pushed but can push them really hard. There is side mark on the tire to indicate the limit take a look on that.
I was running 38 psi and felt good which is recommendation from them. I also measure tire temperature which is even more important.

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by m4forum

This was my first with RR. I believe because they talk "too much" can limit how push the driver pushed but can push them really hard. There is side mark on the tire to indicate the limit take a look on that.
I was running 38 psi and felt good which is recommendation from them. I also measure tire temperature which is even more important.

Try coming down a little. We run 35-36 absolutely fried hot. Turn in feels a little softer but ultimate grip is higher.

[m4forum]

Interesting before reading this post today I ran this weekend again at lower pressure 35psi and found them more stable through the section and temperatures were below 200F which was the recommendation from Toyo Engineer.
Now I ran into other issue : the front passenger tire corded on inside after 5 track days but still a lot of rubber on outside. Interesting the driver tire is pretty good. I ran clockwise tracks.
Theory : running 3.0 camber on both front tires the passenger tire (less load due clockwise tracks) doesnt get fully loaded so tire gets more heat on inside (can see on my temperature measurements) and wears faster. The driver side gets loaded and more even temperature (see 5-10F temperature variation) more even wear.
Maybe flipping tires could help but wonder if need to reduce camber 2.5. Anybody with experience on that?

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by m4forum

Interesting before reading this post today I ran this weekend again at lower pressure 35psi and found them more stable through the section and temperatures were below 200F which was the recommendation from Toyo Engineer.
Now I ran into other issue : the front passenger tire corded on inside after 5 track days but still a lot of rubber on outside. Interesting the driver tire is pretty good. I ran clockwise tracks.
Theory : running 3.0 camber on both front tires the passenger tire (less load due clockwise tracks) doesnt get fully loaded so tire gets more heat on inside (can see on my temperature measurements) and wears faster. The driver side gets loaded and more even temperature (see 5-10F temperature variation) more even wear.
Maybe flipping tires could help but wonder if need to reduce camber 2.5. Anybody with experience on that?

That seems plausible. I don't have data of my own but maybe backing off to ~2.7 on your passenger tire and getting the data on that would be a place to start.

Speaking of camber and tire temps -- would folks mind discussing what you feel is the optimum I<>O temp gradient when camber is dialed in properly? I've read like something in the 5-7 deg range is expected/best. Or, is essentially no gradient considered truly optimal? It would make sense that you would expect some gradient given that the tire will not spend 100% of its time on a cambered curve (i.e., there are straights).

[m4forum]

I talked to race teams and Toyo on this topic. Overall expectation is that 5-10F delta is ok specially because driver (clockwise track) will be more stressed. On my data from this past weekend shows the following deltas:
FL - 5F FR - 13F
RL - 7F RR - 15F

Running -3.0 front and -2.0 rear. Clearly one side the temperature profile is pretty good but on the other side not optimal. Alternative would be to lower camber a little bit in order to lower inside temperature as noticed on all corners inside runs hotter.

In terms of wear after more deep evaluation follow results (tires have 5 days ~ 170 laps) driving hard 1.1-1.3g constant total g measured with Solo DL. (GPS calculated values always show more what isnt realistic). On a Miata using same tire it can pull 1.5-1.6g due lower weight:

FL - even wear/end of life FR - corded inside
RL - even 50% RR - even 50%

Are you experience same life on Toyo RR? Are fronts wearing faster? My setup is 275/305

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by m4forum

I talked to race teams and Toyo on this topic. Overall expectation is that 5-10F delta is ok specially because driver (clockwise track) will be more stressed. On my data from this past weekend shows the following deltas:
FL - 5F FR - 13F
RL - 7F RR - 15F

Running -3.0 front and -2.0 rear. Clearly one side the temperature profile is pretty good but on the other side not optimal. Alternative would be to lower camber a little bit in order to lower inside temperature as noticed on all corners inside runs hotter.

In terms of wear after more deep evaluation follow results (tires have 5 days ~ 170 laps) driving hard 1.1-1.3g constant total g measured with Solo DL. (GPS calculated values always show more what isnt realistic). On a Miata using same tire it can pull 1.5-1.6g due lower weight:

FL - even wear/end of life FR - corded inside
RL - even 50% RR - even 50%

Are you experience same life on Toyo RR? Are fronts wearing faster? My setup is 275/305

I'm actually on the 275/305 NT01 setup, also run CW tracks. You are very likely faster than me. This is the first year I've run -3 up front, and I think around -1.9 in the back. I'll be doing temp readings for first time at my next event on Monday. Have about 12 heat cycles on the current set, and so far the driver front looks to be wearing fairly evenly inside to out. Can't remember what passenger front looks like off top of my head. I also changed from MP HAS to Bilstein B16 this year. I assume you're on aftermarket coils?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by m4forum

I talked to race teams and Toyo on this topic. Overall expectation is that 5-10F delta is ok specially because driver (clockwise track) will be more stressed. On my data from this past weekend shows the following deltas:
FL - 5F FR - 13F
RL - 7F RR - 15F

Running -3.0 front and -2.0 rear. Clearly one side the temperature profile is pretty good but on the other side not optimal. Alternative would be to lower camber a little bit in order to lower inside temperature as noticed on all corners inside runs hotter.

In terms of wear after more deep evaluation follow results (tires have 5 days ~ 170 laps) driving hard 1.1-1.3g constant total g measured with Solo DL. (GPS calculated values always show more what isnt realistic). On a Miata using same tire it can pull 1.5-1.6g due lower weight:

FL - even wear/end of life FR - corded inside
RL - even 50% RR - even 50%

Are you experience same life on Toyo RR? Are fronts wearing faster? My setup is 275/305

What is your front toe alignment? Toe out will consume the inner tire at a rapid pace.

If you want maximum life you also need to swap the fronts driver to passenger to account for track routing (as often as every track day or possibly between sessions). And flip the tires on the rim after 50% of the expected life.

There's no way to adjust camber to provide a completely even tire wear. Sadly it's a lot of rotating and flipping if you want to maximize life.

I roast my driver side NT01s (275/305) regularly unless I'm diligent about mid day flips. Same with RR.

[m4forum]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

I'm actually on the 275/305 NT01 setup, also run CW tracks. You are very likely faster than me. This is the first year I've run -3 up front, and I think around -1.9 in the back. I'll be doing temp readings for first time at my next event on Monday. Have about 12 heat cycles on the current set, and so far the driver front looks to be wearing fairly evenly inside to out. Can't remember what passenger front looks like off top of my head. I also changed from MP HAS to Bilstein B16 this year. I assume you're on aftermarket coils?

Yes I use Ohlins R/T

[m4forum]

Originally Posted by DRLane

What is your front toe alignment? Toe out will consume the inner tire at a rapid pace.

If you want maximum life you also need to swap the fronts driver to passenger to account for track routing (as often as every track day or possibly between sessions). And flip the tires on the rim after 50% of the expected life.

There's no way to adjust camber to provide a completely even tire wear. Sadly it's a lot of rotating and flipping if you want to maximize life.

I roast my driver side NT01s (275/305) regularly unless I'm diligent about mid day flips. Same with RR.

Seems like tire is worn not just on outside but also at the middle. Not sure how much rubber have on inside but more camber could help if still have good amount of rubber inside.

This is the reason I decided to measure temperature as it tells you what is happening and can explain wear. I will run -3.0FL and -2.5FR what should help with uneven tire wear. Now regarding life spam on RR dont believe there is much to do. Most likely will try R88R and NT01 but need to lower my laptime expectations

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by m4forum

Interesting before reading this post today I ran this weekend again at lower pressure 35psi and found them more stable through the section and temperatures were below 200F which was the recommendation from Toyo Engineer.
Now I ran into other issue : the front passenger tire corded on inside after 5 track days but still a lot of rubber on outside. Interesting the driver tire is pretty good. I ran clockwise tracks.
Theory : running 3.0 camber on both front tires the passenger tire (less load due clockwise tracks) doesnt get fully loaded so tire gets more heat on inside (can see on my temperature measurements) and wears faster. The driver side gets loaded and more even temperature (see 5-10F temperature variation) more even wear.
Maybe flipping tires could help but wonder if need to reduce camber 2.5. Anybody with experience on that?

Are you running 275/305? If so, go to 295/315. The 275 is just not enough tire up front and we were cording the outside and had terrible understeer with -3.5deg camber. Going to the 295/315 with no other changes now the car is perfect neutral... almost square feeling but the additional rubber in the rear really helps get power down in track out. But you can still get it to move around with throttle on command. And now the inside wears slightly faster than the outside.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by m4forum

Seems like tire is worn not just on outside but also at the middle. Not sure how much rubber have on inside but more camber could help if still have good amount of rubber inside.

This is the reason I decided to measure temperature as it tells you what is happening and can explain wear. I will run -3.0FL and -2.5FR what should help with uneven tire wear. Now regarding life spam on RR dont believe there is much to do. Most likely will try R88R and NT01 but need to lower my laptime expectations

I use a 3 way memory pyrometer, and have someone else take measurements in the hot pit. Temps are consistent in range across the inside / middle / outer. The outside tire sheds temps almost instantly thus It's not reliable to take these yourself.

The shoulder wear is track dependent, hence the requirement to rotate aggressively and flip. This was a prime example where I wasn't flipping but simply swapping the fronts as the driver side at HPR takes a beating.

If you're getting lots of inside wear I'd still review your alignment. I know toe out in the front has desirable turn in characteristics but again it consumes the insides. I now run 0 toe on string alignment.

I'm running -3.5 of camber in front and just over -2 in the rear. I target 34 hot with NT01, and 36 hot with RR. Seems to be fastest for me. I wouldn't say you'll lose more than 1.5 second in NTO1 from RR on ~3 miles circuit.

Edit: R888R is garbage. Wouldn't waste money on that tire.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

Are you running 275/305? If so, go to 295/315. The 275 is just not enough tire up front and we were cording the outside and had terrible understeer with -3.5deg camber. Going to the 295/315 with no other changes now the car is perfect neutral... almost square feeling but the additional rubber in the rear really helps get power down in track out. But you can still get it to move around with throttle on command. And now the inside wears slightly faster than the outside.

Agreed, I'd like to run 295 in the front or ideally 305 square. Need wider front wheels

275 washes out really quickly. Aggressive steering/throttle inputs can also induce understeer and further terrorize tire wear. This is something I have to work on constantly.

[m4forum]

Originally Posted by bimmerboyE92

Are you running 275/305? If so, go to 295/315. The 275 is just not enough tire up front and we were cording the outside and had terrible understeer with -3.5deg camber. Going to the 295/315 with no other changes now the car is perfect neutral... almost square feeling but the additional rubber in the rear really helps get power down in track out. But you can still get it to move around with throttle on command. And now the inside wears slightly faster than the outside.

I agree wider tire on front would help with understeer but with 275 is already tight. I am 5mm from coilover and not much room from fender. How do you fit 295?

[m4forum]

Originally Posted by DRLane

I use a 3 way memory pyrometer, and have someone else take measurements in the hot pit. Temps are consistent in range across the inside / middle / outer. The outside tire sheds temps almost instantly thus It's not reliable to take these yourself.

The shoulder wear is track dependent, hence the requirement to rotate aggressively and flip. This was a prime example where I wasn't flipping but simply swapping the fronts as the driver side at HPR takes a beating.

If you're getting lots of inside wear I'd still review your alignment. I know toe out in the front has desirable turn in characteristics but again it consumes the insides. I now run 0 toe on string alignment.

I'm running -3.5 of camber in front and just over -2 in the rear. I target 34 hot with NT01, and 36 hot with RR. Seems to be fastest for me. I wouldn't say you'll lose more than 1.5 second in NTO1 from RR on ~3 miles circuit.

Edit: R888R is garbage. Wouldn't waste money on that tire.

Just to recap : my driver front last 170 laps. worn out. passenger front corded on inside with -3.0 camber. I run zero toe. I could potentially get one more weekend on passenger if had flipped it but would need new tire for driver. best case every 2 sets front would get used set passenger front.

1.5s per lap is a lot but if they last longer -> that is the balance.

Anybody with experience on Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R?

[bimmerboyE92]

Originally Posted by m4forum

I agree wider tire on front would help with understeer but with 275 is already tight. I am 5mm from coilover and not much room from fender. How do you fit 295?

Based on other tires compared to the RR, there is not many choices out there that will hold up to the F80s capabilities. You have to think that the Mustangs and Corvettes weigh about the same and can fit 315 sized rubber up front! And even they don't last long. I also own a Miata NB that has been track prepped but retains AC. It is the budget leader for consumables!

18x10 et 25 with a 5mm spacer. And I think it would fit without the spacer as well.