Regrets about moving from my F80 to an F90?

[zuschnell]

Originally Posted by SMGCFP

I'm thinking about the M5 too. I think I'm going to really like/want the new M8 when it comes out someday. I don't think I can do four doors. My son is grown and I really dislike passengers anyway. But the M5 is a beast. I think I'll keep my M4 a while and see what the M8 looks like. I know, I know, I can get a 911 for that price. Never liked the looks of any Porsche. Enjoy the M5 in good health. You will be able to torch just about any car on the road with it.

I like the pics of the 8 series I've seen. I also like the idea of a brand new power plant for the m8. If I didn't have a need for four doors, I'd seriously give it a look. I wonder if they are going to make a gran coupe version...

[TRZ06]

No regret here. The only thing I regret is paying what I did on the M3 for subpar M performance.

Much happier now...

[zuschnell]

Originally Posted by truep287

Very possible. I also saw an X5M on Willow yesterday. Maybe that was you?

May have been! My wife usually drives the x5m and takes willow to work.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by euro*

There was just a post on F80/F82 FB page, about guy switching back to F80, because he didn't like the F90, maybe you should talk to him

Shit, I'm in the other camp. I bought an F80 and regret it. Outside of the way it looks parked, I hate the car.

F90 is awesome!!

[Ian1973]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

No regret here. The only thing I regret is paying what I did on the M3 for subpar M performance.

Much happier now...

If only it didn't feel like a casket interior.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

Shit, I'm in the other camp. I bought an F80 and regret it. Outside of the way it looks parked, I hate the car.

F90 is awesome!!

Lol. Sell your car and get after your Porsche then.

its not the right car for you if you think the safety margin is too narrow in the canyons because it's so fast, and if you don't like the feel when you aren't going fast.

Needs to be the other way around, when it's fun when crawling in traffic and even more fun when you are hammering on it

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Lol. Sell your car and get after your Porsche then.

its not the right car for you if you think the safety margin is too narrow in the canyons because it's so fast, and if you don't like the feel when you aren't going fast.

Needs to be the other way around, when it's fun when crawling in traffic and even more fun when you are hammering on it

Lol I will... I am building a house and need to wait for it to close before I do anything else major. Porsche will need to wait until November.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Ian1973

If only it didn't feel like a casket interior.

After driving it for just a week, that feeling fades. Also the visibility issue is a non-issue if you position your side view mirrors properly, most people have their mirrors too far inward. I also got the 2SS, so it has blind spot monitoring.

The seats and seating positions are so much more comfortable than the M seats and positioning.

The things that most knock about the Gen. 6 Camaro, are just from improperly setting things up.

As far as vehicle dynamics, shock damping, chassis control, stability control systems , traction control systems, and handling limits , the SS 1LE destroys my previous M3 by a big margin.

Hustle a 1LE around some back roads or mountain roads and THAT is what the M3/4 SHOULD have been.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

After driving it for just a week, that feeling fades. Also the visibility issue is a non-issue if you position your side view mirrors properly, most people have their mirrors too far inward. I also got the 2SS, so it has blind spot monitoring.

The seats and seating positions are so much more comfortable than the M seats and positioning.

The things that most knock about the Gen. 6 Camaro, are just from improperly setting things up.

As far as vehicle dynamics, shock damping, chassis control, stability control systems , traction control systems, and handling limits , the SS 1LE destroys my previous M3 by a big margin.

Hustle a 1LE around some back roads or mountain roads and THAT is what the M3/4 SHOULD have been.

What kind of F8X did you have? I have a 17 F80 ZCP and my wife has an 18 F80. We find them to be much more competent than my 6th gen ever was and I actually feel the opposite as you. (Also we love a four door so there is some bias here to that as well)

What makes me ask this is that there are some posters here such as minn19 who had an older F8X, jumped to an American car, and is now back and has a different view of the newer ZCPs compared to his normal party line (from the little I have gathered from his posts, don't know his reasons just yet, only that the ZCP is an improvement over his older non-ZCP).

If you had a newer ZCP and jumped I can admit that we just may have had different experiences and I wish you all the best. But, at the same time, if you didn't, your comparison is not necessarily invalid and makes a lot of sense when compared to the older F8Xs. Wonder if s newer ZCP would have done it for you.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

After driving it for just a week, that feeling fades. Also the visibility issue is a non-issue if you position your side view mirrors properly, most people have their mirrors too far inward. I also got the 2SS, so it has blind spot monitoring.

The seats and seating positions are so much more comfortable than the M seats and positioning.

The things that most knock about the Gen. 6 Camaro, are just from improperly setting things up.

As far as vehicle dynamics, shock damping, chassis control, stability control systems , traction control systems, and handling limits , the SS 1LE destroys my previous M3 by a big margin.

Hustle a 1LE around some back roads or mountain roads and THAT is what the M3/4 SHOULD have been.

I get the feeling as well. I wish you better luck than my domestic sports car experience.

Originally Posted by Thescout13

What kind of F8X did you have? I have a 17 F80 ZCP and my wife has an 18 F80. We find them to be much more competent than my 6th gen ever was and I actually feel the opposite as you. (Also we love a four door so there is some bias here to that as well)

What makes me ask this is that there are some posters here such as minn19 who had an older F8X, jumped to an American car, and is now back and has a different view of the newer ZCPs compared to his normal party line (from the little I have gathered from his posts, don't know his reasons just yet, only that the ZCP is an improvement over his older non-ZCP).

If you had a newer ZCP and jumped I can admit that we just may have had different experiences and I wish you all the best. But, at the same time, if you didn't, your comparison is not necessarily invalid and makes a lot of sense when compared to the older F8Xs. Wonder if s newer ZCP would have done it for you.

I get his feeling (and yours), the ZCP is much much improved over my 15s that I ended up despising. Had my GT350 experience not been such a pain in the ass, I would not have came back. Not saying the 18 ZCP is worse in performance than a Camaro SS or GT350 etc, but I will miss the N/A V8 and Mag ride even though 18 ZCP is soooo much better. But, the M3 has obvious advantages as well, especially for people like me that has a young family. I do like how the S55 has more low end power and revs much easier, not to mention the quality differences etc.

I drove the Alfa as well and had that thing had a manual, I'd probably of given that chance. That is an amazing car. I don't think it is light years ahead of the M3 as other reviewers say (it is over the 15/16 non comp M3/4 though). But, considering all the question marks around its reliability, dealership support and whether they will even stay in the US long term is up in the air. I know what I have in BMW and the M3 so I went with that.

Also, there are very few choices if you want a manual RWD 4 door. Very few.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by minn19

I get the feeling as well. I wish you better luck than my domestic sports car experience.

I get his feeling (and yours), the ZCP is much much improved over my 15s that I ended up despising. Had my GT350 experience not been such a pain in the ass, I would not have came back. Not saying the 18 ZCP is worse in performance than a Camaro SS or GT350 etc, but I will miss the N/A V8 and Mag ride even though 18 ZCP is soooo much better. But, the M3 has obvious advantages as well, especially for people like me that has a young family. I do like how the S55 has more low end power and revs much easier, not to mention the quality differences etc.

I drove the Alfa as well and had that thing had a manual, I'd probably of given that chance. That is an amazing car. I don't think it is light years ahead of the M3 as other reviewers say (it is over the 15/16 non comp M3/4 though). But, considering all the question marks around its reliability, dealership support and whether they will even stay in the US long term is up in the air. I know what I have in BMW and the M3 so I went with that.

Also, there are very few choices if you want a manual RWD 4 door. Very few.

I am happy you have seen the light! (Kidding, obviously)

I get his point of view as well. I think the one argument that a lot of people cannot seem to grasp is that if you want a fast sports car four door you are limited to the F80, Alfa, and ATS-V. The Camaro nor the mustang are even in the same conversation as they have utterly unusable back seats (especially since I am 6'3). In fact one guy on another thread got worked up because I said the M4 has a lot more competition as a two door than the M3 as a four door in the market.

The ATS-V is one hell of a car, and I like it. But it depreciates like crazy, and the technology inside is so outdated and bad, that it makes the drive unenjoyable for me. I had the same concerns as you re an Alfa. I didn't want to take a risk on the Chevy SS. So here I am.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I am happy you have seen the light! (Kidding, obviously)

I get his point of view as well. I think the one argument that a lot of people cannot seem to grasp is that if you want a fast sports car four door you are limited to the F80, Alfa, and ATS-V. The Camaro nor the mustang are even in the same conversation as they have utterly unusable back seats (especially since I am 6'3). In fact one guy on another thread got worked up because I said the M4 has a lot more competition as a two door than the M3 as a four door in the market.

The ATS-V is one hell of a car, and I like it. But it depreciates like crazy, and the technology inside is so outdated and bad, that it makes the drive unenjoyable for me. I had the same concerns as you re an Alfa. I didn't want to take a risk on the Chevy SS. So here I am.

Agreed, the backseat room didn't bother me in the GT350 (yet) as my 7 year old daughter was the only one back there. But, we also had two cars and truck. Now we turned my wifes 428 in and are back to a 2 car family so four doors was a must again. It'll be nice to drive the fun car more now because it has that added versatility and I'll drive it in the winter as well.

There is no perfect car and as you said the choices are pretty limited when you get down to it. Especially for manual RWD sedans. You just gotta find the one that fits your lifestyle/comfort zone the best. Sometimes that takes some experimentation.

I am glad though, I bounced around an bit. I definitely learned a lot about I like/don't like and other things etc.

[Duck Sauce]

I think Matt from Obsessed Garage put it best by saying that it's an evolution as a car guy.

I don't form emotional attachments to objects like cars and motorcycles. Sometimes you buy one and truly love it for a long while, usually we soak a bunch of money into them then.....on to something new.

For me I've "evolved" from the early tuner and 4cyl to high displacement V8s. Then took a break and chased bikes from sport bikes to big Harley's, now I'm really loving the M3 and the quality but I've got my sights and goals set squarely on a McLaren within the next 3 years. It's just movement from one experience to the next.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

What kind of F8X did you have? I have a 17 F80 ZCP and my wife has an 18 F80. We find them to be much more competent than my 6th gen ever was and I actually feel the opposite as you. (Also we love a four door so there is some bias here to that as well)

What makes me ask this is that there are some posters here such as minn19 who had an older F8X, jumped to an American car, and is now back and has a different view of the newer ZCPs compared to his normal party line (from the little I have gathered from his posts, don't know his reasons just yet, only that the ZCP is an improvement over his older non-ZCP).

If you had a newer ZCP and jumped I can admit that we just may have had different experiences and I wish you all the best. But, at the same time, if you didn't, your comparison is not necessarily invalid and makes a lot of sense when compared to the older F8Xs. Wonder if s newer ZCP would have done it for you.

While I'm sure the BMW has improved upon the suspension tuning some since my 2016 M3 (I moved over to Ohlin coilovers BTW), I do not think it is in the same league as the SS 1LE Magnaride dampers.

You need to keep in mind that the SS 1LE is matching or right there in lap times with the $140k M4 GTS.

The M3 makes a better daily driver , but if you are going on Performance as your main matrix , and while not optimal, need 4 seats thus eliminating 2 seat sports car options , the SS 1LE just puts it all together as a complete package better.

The 6 piston brembo brakes kill the ones that come on the M3 as well.

I loved my M3 until you got it above 7/10ths. And if you are going to drive at or below 7/10th, then just get a standard 3 series , but M cars are supposed to be drivers cars , and they just aren't when driven at 8,9,10/10ths.

At this point though, we can probably just agree to disagree. At heart I'm a Performance car guy first , brand loyal to none.

I drive a car not to get from point A to point B, I drive a car for the experience, the feel, the emotions it invokes.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

While I'm sure the BMW has improved upon the suspension tuning some since my 2016 M3 (I moved over to Ohlin coilovers BTW), I do not think it is in the same league as the SS 1LE Magnaride dampers.

You need to keep in mind that the SS 1LE is matching or right there in lap times with the $140k M4 GTS.

The M3 makes a better daily driver , but if you are going on Performance as your main matrix , and while not optimal, need 4 seats thus eliminating 2 seat sports car options , the SS 1LE just puts it all together as a complete package better.

The 6 piston brembo brakes kill the ones that come on the M3 as well.

I loved my M3 until you got it above 7/10ths. And if you are going to drive at or below 7/10th, then just get a standard 3 series , but M cars are supposed to be drivers cars , and they just aren't when driven at 8,9,10/10ths.

At this point though, we can probably just agree to disagree. At heart I'm a Performance car guy first , brand loyal to none.

I drive a car not to get from point A to point B, I drive a car for the experience, the feel, the emotions it invokes.

So am I. But emotions are subjective. My emotions in an M3 vs the Camaro do not line up with your emotions.

Our experiences are different. And I'm not trying to convert you.

I was simply asking the question. That is all.

I don't think you meant to imply that I don't push my car and am a below 7/10ths kind of person thus should get a regular 3 series, because I have said before on this forum that I track my cars and auto cross a lot. And in my experience our F80s (mind you 17 ZCP and 18) have been more predictable, confidence inspiring, and emotion giving on the track for us than my Camaro was. But then again that's our experience. I also don't think you meant to imply that I'm a BMW fanboy that cannot appreciate good performance cars. Because, again, I have said multiple times that the Camaro is still a great car. But for ME, having a car I can DD and track means more. If it was my weekend car, I would have kept it.

I will also say that there are two guys that I have met at our local tuner shop that jumped from an F82 non-ZCP to a Camaro/Mustang and then jumped right back to a ZCP. Not saying your wrong but me and Minn19 are not alone.

Just because our experiences are different doesn't mean either of us is lesser. We are all enthusiasts here trying to have a discussion.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

. But for ME, having a car I can DD and track means more..

For the longest time, I too felt this way.

But a post above was around the "personal evolution" of a car guy, and I feel like I've seen the light after going to a multiple car model (separate dedicated commuter and competition prepared car).

Now if I'm getting to the point where if it isn't a race car or can't tow a race car I don't care about it.

I used to want the mclaren / Lambo level of car, but now have realized that I'd rather get a 997 cup factory race car + money in the bank to keep the cup car on the track rather than going with the $ road car

This desire for dedication more than anything else has steered me away from m3 style cars and the compromises they have to make to be a good daily

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

For the longest time, I too felt this way.

But a post above was around the "personal evolution" of a car guy, and I feel like I've seen the light after going to a multiple car model (separate dedicated commuter and competition prepared car).

Now if I'm getting to the point where if it isn't a race car or can't tow a race car I don't care about it.

I used to want the mclaren / Lambo level of car, but now have realized that I'd rather get a 997 cup factory race car + money in the bank to keep the cup car on the track rather than going with the $ road car

This desire for dedication more than anything else has steered me away from m3 style cars and the compromises they have to make to be a good daily

Yeah makes sense. I feel like I would be that guy if:

1. Had a three car garage or extra space to put the dedicated car.

2. Had the disposable income to waste on depreciating assets more than I do now. I rather put that money to travel or investing at this point in my life. But in the future I will be where you are.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

Shit, I'm in the other camp. I bought an F80 and regret it. Outside of the way it looks parked, I hate the car.

F90 is awesome!!

Would be interested to hear about your F80 (stick? Year? What you hated about it). I have to say, you don't hear too many people complaining about the 2017/2018 MYs - doesn't mean the car was right for you however!

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

So am I. But emotions are subjective. My emotions in an M3 vs the Camaro do not line up with your emotions.

Our experiences are different. And I'm not trying to convert you.

I was simply asking the question. That is all.

I don't think you meant to imply that I don't push my car and am a below 7/10ths kind of person thus should get a regular 3 series, because I have said before on this forum that I track my cars and auto cross a lot. And in my experience our F80s (mind you 17 ZCP and 18) have been more predictable, confidence inspiring, and emotion giving on the track for us than my Camaro was. But then again that's our experience. I also don't think you meant to imply that I'm a BMW fanboy that cannot appreciate good performance cars. Because, again, I have said multiple times that the Camaro is still a great car. But for ME, having a car I can DD and track means more. If it was my weekend car, I would have kept it.

I will also say that there are two guys that I have met at our local tuner shop that jumped from an F82 non-ZCP to a Camaro/Mustang and then jumped right back to a ZCP. Not saying your wrong but me and Minn19 are not alone.

Just because our experiences are different doesn't mean either of us is lesser. We are all enthusiasts here trying to have a discussion.

You are correct in saying I'm not implying anything to you directly. My comments are all general in nature and my opinion.

Just a friendly discussion with two different view points and opinions. It's all good.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Yeah makes sense. I feel like I would be that guy if:

1. Had a three car garage or extra space to put the dedicated car.

2. Had the disposable income to waste on depreciating assets more than I do now. I rather put that money to travel or investing at this point in my life. But in the future I will be where you are.

Agreed!! I can't afford two expensive vehicles, if I could I would have a SQ5 as a daily driver and a track toy that would get towed by the SQ5.

So, since I need a daily driver as my only car , I have to pick one I can live with daily , yet still give me the performance I crave and desire.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

Agreed!! I can't afford two expensive vehicles, if I could I would have a SQ5 as a daily driver and a track toy that would get towed by the SQ5.

So, since I need a daily driver as my only car , I have to pick one I can live with daily , yet still give me the performance I crave and desire.

By the way, I'm aligned with your move to American cars. HUGE money saver versus German cars, which means more $$ for track days and competition.

And its not like you lose out on performance either

I loved my M3 and it was the fulfillment of a dream I've had for many years to euro delivery an M3 but my only regret is not moving away from it sooner

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

As far as vehicle dynamics, shock damping, chassis control, stability control systems , traction control systems, and handling limits , the SS 1LE destroys my previous M3 by a big margin.

Hustle a 1LE around some back roads or mountain roads and THAT is what the M3/4 SHOULD have been.

100000% agree with this. I know that Chevy Camaro has a traditional stigma of a redneck muscle car that can't turn and that you need a mullet to drive it. But...... I've actually had long term rentals of the Camaros on my work trips in each of the standard forms: V6 and SS 1LE hardtop and SS convertible. The steering and chassis are so well sorted out that the base V6 is SO MUCH fun to drive. When I jumped up into the V8 the performance was stunning. Forget straight line speed- of course it will have that with that great V8. It's how confident you feel in throwing it into any corner at any speed after driving it for literally 3 minutes; the chassis and steering are so responsive you know exactly what you're doing. GM did a fantastic job on the driving dynamics. The convertible even feels as stiff as the coupe. Best part is the ride quality on broken/choppy roads- it's MUCH better than the F8X.

Why I don't get one? It has nothing to do with the stigma or the interior quality (which frankly is completely fine in the higher trims- not like the F3X/F8X 3 series is amazing- heck the basic 3 series interiors are complete garbage, but I digress); it's the fact that it did get tiresome to drive around from the inside of a cave. The front visibility is fine, the sides is meh, and the rear...forget about it. It also doesn't have enough "basic" creature comforts- things like storage in a center console, door pockets, etc.

GM we know you can build the motor and chassis, for the love of god, why can't the Camaro have the same outwards visibility and interior space of a Mustang?

I also completely agree on the premise that as an exciting car to drive hard (stock to stock, forgetting about the quality, interior space, or any of that)- the Camaro SS trounces the F8X. It just feels more fun and approachable.

Originally Posted by doug_999

Would be interested to hear about your F80 (stick? Year? What you hated about it). I have to say, you don't hear too many people complaining about the 2017/2018 MYs - doesn't mean the car was right for you however!

This leads into.... I have a 2016 M3 DCT, adaptive suspension...flash tuned, lowered on MS springs and a ZCP muffler. Performance wise those are my only mods. I've had every generation M3 in succession E36, into E46, into E92, into F80 (aside from the E30, which I owned years ago for a short amount of time). I've owned it since November of 2017.

I have literally loved every previous M3 I've owned and miss them all. All of them made me feel special- and each felt special- driving them. Even at low speeds and cruising around you KNEW you were driving something better than 90% of the cars on the road (especially the E46!). They all had a special steering feel and engine sound...and the suspension tuning was fantastic..great when you're windy roads, but supple and compliant enough that it didn't beat you up daily driving.


The F80? I love the way it looks. Seriously, it's the best looking M3 IMHO so far. It looks purposeful, aggressive- if a little big. However, what I hate most about it are three things:

1) The electric power steering is brutally bad. I have the "GTS" steering flash, and it's better with that...but at low speeds it's too lightweight and has no real road feel. It loads up okay at speed, but driving around day-to-day it feels limp.

2) I know I'm lowered a little, but even stock....the ride quality is way more brittle than I remember in any previous M3. Seriously, on choppy roads, the car beats you up and feels like it's going to shake apart. The suspension damping is just bad.

3) I could forgive the first two...but the BIGGEST reason I hate the car, is that winding it out to redline is NO fun because it sounds like complete GARBAGE. Those who "like" the F8X sound can justify it all they want, but this is the worst sounding M car, and probably one of the worst sounding performance cars ever made. Seriously it sounds like a cat being strangled by a lawnmower. It's so bad sounding that it's embarrassing to wind it out for people. Part of the fun of owning a performance car is the sound of the engine right? I thought I would grow to live with it, but it gets more an more annoying with time.

I've come to realize that I should have just kept my E92 M3 for a few more years, but rather than go back, I'm going to finish building my house and then either get a 6 cylinder Cayman GTS (2014-2016) or if I can find the right deal, a 991.1 Carrera 4S..and just keep it forever. Those cars may be slower (especially the Cayman) but make you feel like a hero while driving them.

tl;dr - F8X has mediocre steering feel, sounds like crap, and the ride is too stiff.