C7 or M4

[buildbright]

I think putting down someone for wanting an M3/M4 is silly. Because one perfers german enginnering does not make them a brand whore. I know professional race car drivers that would take one over a Corvette any day. I might buy a new C7 when it comes out but it will never be as nice as a Audi, Mercedes, or BMW on the inside because that's not their goal. They are building a raw performance car to appeal to younger buyers.

I would take a VW over any domestic Eco Box.

[Sir Loin]

I have been driving my E46 M3 SMG for 10 years. I am so used to pulling the stick back for up shift and pushing the stick forward for down shift, I don't want a manual or other dual-clutch transmission with the "wrong" or different stick configuration.

I don't need the 2 back seats, but l want them. I considered the C7. It is a great car. I just like the look of the new M4 more.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

I agree with you here. If American cars had the fantastic trannys that BMW and Porsche has... But we know those things don't come cheap and looks like the American cars are spending their money elsewhere and need to be competitive and less expensive. Drop in a DCT and while it make be game changing from a driving perspective for those who prefer paddles, I'm guessing the price point will be right at those cars they're trying to compete against on price.

/2cents

You make a fair point, but I am not convinced a DCT must add appreciable cost or, for that matter, any cost to the development of a car. Ford and Xler already use them in their bread and butter economy cars. I suspect they could apply the same processes and call upon the same segment of the supply chain to provide these features in their performance offerings. Sure the parts are different, but the same applies to the manual and automatic transmissions used in the offerings respectively.

I think that right now it is more about the cultural forces at play. By and large, American performance cars are only sold in the US or North America. So, they are not subject to the same diversity in types of consumers that a German or Japanese performance car might see. For now, then, they can still avoid the DCT trends that are developing on a global basis. But the tides in the US will turn soon, and at some point you will see a high enough demand for fast shifts vs. clutched shifts that they are forced to respond. As I said, I think it will happen sometime with the upcoming generation of cars (Corvette C7, Viper, next Camaro, next Mustang, next Challenger, Barracuda, etc.)

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by buildbright

I think putting down someone for wanting an M3/M4 is silly. Because one perfers german enginnering does not make them a brand whore.

He wasn't calling the guy a brand whore for preferring the German car, he was calling him that for turning his nose up at those who would consider an American car.

[richardg]

The C7 has my attention for sure. Configurator went live today and with all the goodies and alcantara/cf I can throw at it, a c7 of my liking comes to 75k

I expect my M4 to be a good bit more expensive since I have full intention of having every single option available.

When the time comes to sign the dotted line I will either purchase the M4 and do euro delivery or I will stick with my e92m until I can afford a second hand 991 GT3. (which sounds mighty appealing right now)

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by thebmw

I'd pay more for a MT vs. DCT!

Haha, and I guess the marketing/accounting folks are right on the money with their offerings for the American cars (and why BMW probably won't release a M car without a MT for a long time)

If you drive an american sports/muscle car you're basically ridiculed if it's not a MT. Just the culture we have here and what most people grew up with and prefer in their performance cars. Of course we feel the same way about BMWs (by 'we' I mean a large portion of american consumers who purchase BMWs).

So to your point, the bulk of American consumers probably don't really want anything other than a MT, so what's the point in offering one given they can just slap in a regular auto rather than what I presume to be a more expensive DCT.

Random thought, do any American cars still charge more for an auto of a manual? Seems like I saw the mustang auto a bit more than the manual a few years ago. I'll make the assumption that it costs more to build an auto car than a manual one (or is that all marketing?)

Seems like I've read someone replacing an auto tranny and BMW wanting like $10k+ for it.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You make a fair point, but I am not convinced a DCT must add appreciable cost or, for that matter, any cost to the development of a car. Ford and Xler already use them in their bread and butter economy cars. I suspect they could apply the same processes and call upon the same segment of the supply chain to provide these features in their performance offerings. Sure the parts are different, but the same applies to the manual and automatic transmissions used in the offerings respectively.

I think that right now it is more about the cultural forces at play. By and large, American performance cars are only sold in the US or North America. So, they are not subject to the same diversity in types of consumers that a German or Japanese performance car might see. For now, then, they can still avoid the DCT trends that are developing on a global basis. But the tides in the US will turn soon, and at some point you will see a high enough demand for fast shifts vs. clutched shifts that they are forced to respond. As I said, I think it will happen sometime with the upcoming generation of cars (Corvette C7, Viper, next Camaro, next Mustang, next Challenger, Barracuda, etc.)

I agree about the whole 'give the customer what they want and nothing more' idea. NA doesn't seem to demand it so why should cars that sell the most volume here worry about offering it. I'm guessing some people would prefer a regular auto over DCT in something like a Corvette or Mustang? I wouldn't but I'm guessing there are those that would, which would make them have to worry about an extra transmission.

But I would like to see the cost of a good DCT vs a 'good' regular auto. I suspect that the DCT costs more, but I could be wrong.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

Random thought, do any American cars still charge more for an auto of a manual? Seems like I saw the mustang auto a bit more than the manual a few years ago.

Yes, including the C7, which you can see in the configurator (mentioned above) comes standard with the manual, but has an available auto for $1350.

I believe this is still the case for all the entries in the "muscle car" segment as well.

I'll make the assumption that it costs more to build an auto car than a manual one (or is that all marketing?)

An automatic transmission is generally a more expensive component than a manual transmission, yes. It is mechanically more complex (on average), and must also be contolled by a computer. Though some newer manuals, like the one in the C7, have launch control and rev matching capabilities, so they too need a CU. They are still less complex overall than an automatic though.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yes, including the C7, which you can see in the configurator (mentioned above) comes standard with the manual, but has an available auto for $1350.

I believe this is still the case for all the entries in the "muscle car" segment as well.



An automatic transmission is generally a more expensive component than a manual transmission, yes. It is mechanically more complex (on average), and must also be contolled by a computer. Though some newer manuals, like the one in the C7, have launch control and rev matching capabilities, so they too need a CU. They are still less complex overall than an automatic though.

So with a move by BMW putting DCT as standard and MT as a 'no cost option' really comes out good for them for those choosing MT as the DCT is a costlier option. GG BMW GG. Oh and keep on ordering MT guys so those of us that prefer DCT can get a subsidized rate (or maybe BMW is already adding DCT to the base price and pocketing the profit).

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

He wasn't calling the guy a brand whore for preferring the German car, he was calling him that for turning his nose up at those who would consider an American car.

No, I see it on her too much. If you like a German (Mercedes, BMW, Audi) over an American car you are a brand whore. I have owned many American cars and its sad to say their quality, and design is below what we get from Asia or Europe. Ford is stepping it up with new models like the Fusion.

I think the front of the Vette is great but when you look at the rear it looks like it was designed by committee. Also the interior looks cheap still but I will hold off until I see it in person. That being said the performance seems staggering. I can't wait to drive one. My hope is that it does not feel cheap like the older Vettes.

[Judah]

M4 but I'd take a C7 over a 911. I never really liked Porsche. The last Porsche I liked was the 928.

Porsche needs to bring that back...

[Xelloss]

Originally Posted by Sir Loin

I have been driving my E46 M3 SMG for 10 years. I am so used to pulling the stick back for up shift and pushing the stick forward for down shift, I don't want a manual or other dual-clutch transmission with the "wrong" or different stick configuration.

I don't need the 2 back seats, but l want them. I considered the C7. It is a great car. I just like the look of the new M4 more.

+1

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

I'm guessing some people would prefer a regular auto over DCT in something like a Corvette or Mustang? I wouldn't but I'm guessing there are those that would, which would make them have to worry about an extra transmission.

I don't think a significant number of buyers in these segments will reject a DCT vs. a traditional auto. I suspect it is simply that the demand for the DCT is just not high enough (yet) to warrant the investment in changing from the status quo. Note that the C7 got a new manual transmission but stays with the exact same automatic transmission as the C6.

But I would like to see the cost of a good DCT vs a 'good' regular auto. I suspect that the DCT costs more, but I could be wrong.

The DCT likely loses out right now due to the lower volume. But, how long can they offer a car like a ZR1 or even a Z06 with no DCT? They are chasing imports in the 100k range, many of which are going with a DCT. You may soon need the transmission to compete, and potentially you could actually bring the costs down by using it in the lower end models like the base C7 as well and in other cars too for that matter, all while having a positive effect on performance. I think it can work, and it is just a matter of time before the numbers start to make sense.

Originally Posted by tdizzle

So with a move by BMW putting DCT as standard and MT as a 'no cost option' really comes out good for them for those choosing MT as the DCT is a costlier option. GG BMW GG. Oh and keep on ordering MT guys so those of us that prefer DCT can get a subsidized rate (or maybe BMW is already adding DCT to the base price and pocketing the profit).

I'm sure they are passing costs to the consumer by increasing the base price, yes. But, keep in mind that fewer people opting for the MT (as is the trend) means that the development of that transmission in the car is spread over fewer units as well. So maybe charging the same for the MT as the DCT isn't such a money grab after all. We don't know since they aren't going to disclose the detailed cost breakdown publically, but it may not be as clear cut as it seems.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by ///M3Owner

I get the fact the C7 is made by americans, and yes the corvette use to be a piece of plastic, but the materials they used for this new vet is astounding. Made by aluminum and carbon fiber, not just that the inside is real carbon fiber also. You can't be so ignorant about it since its just made by an american company. I bet if bmw or porsche slapped their brand on the corvette and not chevy most of the people would change their minds about it. The M4 looks like its going to be an amazing car as well, but in my opinion i dont see anything revolutionary from the e92 M3. Yeah it'll be lighter, faster, better gas, but I just expected more from a car that was so hyped from a couple months back.

+1. Nice to see some objectivity here.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

When was the last time you saw a 25yr ~35yr old male in a C6?
When was the last time you saw a non-Caucasian in a C6?

Yeah, I know, GM marketing is still scratching their heads as why they can't sell Corvettes to the younger crowd (and non-Caucasian) either, but they THINK C7 will change all that.

Simply put, a lot of guys here just cannot be seen in a 'Vette because it's not who we are, performance and interior quality has nothing to do with it.

Really? I see black dudes and 30 somethings in C6's everyday. Hell, I was in my mid 30's when I had my '05 C6.

I had this same dilemma just a couple of weeks ago on which to choose (keep the M3 and wait for the M4 or C7 to hit the streets)....I went with a very low mileage (9k miles) 2010 GT-R. Not feeling the rear end of the C7 and not digging the M4 either.

[HighConcept]

Not a fair question at all.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by buildbright

Because one perfers german enginnering does not make them a brand whore.

What makes someone a brand whore (and this term is not limited to any one brand) is their sheer ignorance and lack of objectivity. There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy, but an ignorant, insulting, and uninformed blind fanboy equals brand whore.

They blindly follow a brand and act like the brand can do no wrong. They many times make up and exaggerate facts about their own brand all while making up false claims about the other brand. They provide questionable, or no, objective data.

Every brand has them and they are annoying. BTW, German engineering has really taken a beating the last couple years. American products, like Tesla and the new C7 have shown that American engineering can be amazing, even world class leaders...at a lower price point.

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by thebmw

What makes someone a brand whore (and this term is not limited to any one brand) is their sheer ignorance and lack of objectivity. There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy, but an ignorant, insulting, and uninformed blind fanboy equals brand whore.

They blindly follow a brand and act like the brand can do no wrong. They many times make up and exaggerate facts about their own brand all while making up false claims about the other brand. They provide questionable, or no, objective data.

Every brand has them and they are annoying. BTW, German engineering has really taken a beating the last couple years. American products, like Tesla and the new C7 have shown that American engineering can be amazing, even world class leaders...at a lower price point.

German engineering is doing just fine. It even has caused GM to drop the price of the Volt with the introduction of the i3. It has spured a diesel revoultion in passenger cars. I can't speak about the C7 because it has not been released to the public yet. But Tesla is amazing for what they have done but they are not cheap nor did they get there by themselves. Both Lotus and Fisker were vital in their success.

The same problems you see with European enthusiasts, I see with American ones. I think alot Americans have this entitlement issue and think they are always right. But I could careless what another enthusiast likes or dislikes. It's his money and his business not yours. Want to love only the Corvette, Challenger, And Mustang best wishes.

[Randy M]

I had a Challenger SRT8 392. She was a big girl....

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by buildbright

German engineering is doing just fine. It even has caused GM to drop the price of the Volt with the introduction of the i3. It has spured a diesel revoultion in passenger cars. I can't speak about the C7 because it has not been released to the public yet. But Tesla is amazing for what they have done but they are not cheap nor did they get there by themselves. Both Lotus and Fisker were vital in their success.

The same problems you see with European enthusiasts, I see with American ones. I think alot Americans have this entitlement issue and think they are always right. But I could careless what another enthusiast likes or dislikes. It's his money and his business not yours. Want to love only the Corvette, Challenger, And Mustang best wishes.

100% agree about the entitlement issues. 100% agree there are brand whores on both sides of the fence. Don't agree about the price drop on Volt. It was not reduced because of the i3 at all. It was reduced due to sales. i3 is not even out yet! Also, Fisker had nothing to do with Tesla. If anything, it hurt Telsa because people, like you, compared the two companies with completely different leadership, technology, goals, business models, etc. Fisker is a designer with little leadership and engineering skill. Musk is this generation's Jobs, but he actually has multiple degrees in physics and business.

[amdmaxx]

C7. Lighter, faster, finally a decent interior.
Z06 will be a monster. 600hp rumored

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by thebmw

100% agree about the entitlement issues. 100% agree there are brand whores on both sides of the fence. Don't agree about the price drop on Volt. It was not reduced because of the i3 at all. It was reduced due to sales. i3 is not even out yet! Also, Fisker had nothing to do with Tesla. If anything, it hurt Telsa because people, like you, compared the two companies with completely different leadership, technology, goals, business models, etc. Fisker is a designer with little leadership and engineering skill. Musk is this generation's Jobs, but he actually has multiple degrees in physics and business.

I don't care what car someone loves. It just makes me happy to see someone just love their car. You may not agree about the Volt price drop but that doesn't mean it's not true. The i3 started getting rave reviews and then pricing was announced to be simular to the Volt. Right after that boom Volt announces price drop. Dropping the price on a car they lose money on. But they never make much money on cars in the US. Most of their profits come from trucks and SUVs.

Also people like me? I never said the two companies are same so please listen. I stated that Fisker helped Telsa. I think you may need to do some reading. Fisker was contracted to do work designing the Model S. This is because when Musk was draft dodging to avoid military service, Fisker was designing some of first electric cars. There was a falling out, the reason of which I can not disclose. Tesla sued Fisker and in the end Tesla was paying Fisker money.

Steve Jobs is the modern day Steve Jobs. Elon Musk is Elon Musk.