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      12-09-2014, 05:24 PM   #1
myzmak
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Why the sky is still not falling (A Compilation of F8X comparisons) - Updated 9/17

A few months ago, I made a long winded compilation thread to deal with some perceived early panic about the F8X reviews. The point of the thread was to do two things:
- First to deal with concern that the F8X was getting worse reviews than the E9X (because it wasn't)
- Second, to note that the E9X wasn't always the run away winner of the head to head battles the way many people remembered it.

While those tasks were really completed in that first thread, the point of this (even longer-winded) post is to expand on the second for the new car. Specifically, I want to make one compilation thread of all of the various head to head battles the F8X has been involved in. A few notes:

(1) I have only included professional/semi-professional reviews. No personal impression threads or youtube racing videos.

(2) I have tried to be comprehensive, but if I have missed any, please add them below.

(3) I don’t want to debate the individual comparisons in this thread (I have included the actual bimmerpost threads for each item, so you can debate the legitimacy/illegitimacy of a particular review there) – really, I just want to capture the whole range of data and see if any overarching trends can be determined.

(4) I've tried to keep it to true comparisons. So if there is just a passing reference in the review of another car to an M4 (good or bad) I've left it out. But if there is more than that, if, say, that review is really a 'how does this compare to M3/M4?' I've left it in. Those are judgment calls; you don't like my calls, I can tell you what you can do with yourself….

(5) I've also left out pure 'which car is faster'/objective comparisons. Numbers are what they are, I am more interested (for this thread) in the subjective/driving dynamics type comparisons.

(6) Before you say anything: I am not suggesting these comparisons actually mean much, if anything at all. (this was done on a slow day for fun). The only comparison that really matters to me is my own. BUT….I thought it might be something fun to do/look at all at once. So before you tell me how you don't like me doing this at all, stop, go get a drink, talk to your wife/girlfriend/children/mother/dog and then see if you still care enough to complain that I did this. Thanks


Edit: All of the data below as of September 2017 is summarized in one chart at post 179


Earlier versions of that chart from December 2015 are here at post 117, from February 2016 here and from November 2016 at post 143
and from February 2017 here here.


Anyway, without further ado, the running list:

Autocar – May 2014
M4 vs C63 (507 Edition)
Winner? C63
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=985481
Notes: Sutcliffe.


Evo – June 2014
M4 vs F-Type (v6)
Winner? Probably F-type…(a little vague)
http://api.app.evo.co.uk/editions/uk...8a77a/web.html
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=991987

Auto Express – June 2014
M4 vs RS5 (track battle)
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1002720

Car Magazine – June 2014
M4 vs F-type vs 911
M4 2nd (911 wins)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=988629

Autocar – July 2014
M4 vs Alpina D3
Winner? D3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1015018
Notes: F80 is 0 for 2 with Autocar….

Automobile Mag – July 2014
M4 vs Stingray (around track)
Winner? Stingray
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1007488

Auto Express – Jul 2014
M4 vs Cayman S vs RS5
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1008314

Car & Driver – June 2014
M4 vs 911
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1003386

Autocar – August 2014
M4 v B4 v M235
Winner? M235. M4 3rd)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1026023
Note: 0 for 3 with Autocar.

Automotor Sport – August 2014
M4 vs RS4 vs Volvo Polestar
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1022897

GTO – August 2014

M4 v Jag F-type
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1025889

Chris Harris – online post – October 2014
M4 v RC-F
Winner? M4
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=30817
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1034241

Autobild – October 2014
M4 v Z/28
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1039963

Consumer Reports – October 2014

M4 vs RCF
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1045146
http://autospies.com/news/VIDEO-Cons...-Choice-83053/

Autocar –
Best Driver's Car (M4 vs others)
M4? 9th
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1047952
Note: 0 for 4 with Autocar….

Top Gear – July 2014
Cayman S v M4
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1008785
Note: part of "Speed Week" – it won this head to head then finished mid-pack in the final group.

Evo Car – November 2014
Car of the year
M4? 9th
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1053415

Motor Trend – November 2014
Best Drivers Car
M4? 5th http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...t_drivers_car/
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1037324

Road and Track – November 2014
Corvette Z51 vs Cayman S vs M4
Winner? Z51. M4 3rd
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1044432
http://kinja.roadandtrack.com/power-...16415/+pgeorge

Motor Trend – December 2014
M4 vs RC-F
Winner? M4 http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._f_comparison/
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1066981

Edit: missed two

Road and Track - November 2014
Performance Car of the Year
Winner? Not M4 (911 won). No rankings (that I saw) for the others
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1057209
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...r-of-the-year/

Motoring Australia - October 2014
M4 v C63 (507 Edition)
Winner? M4
http://www.motoring.com.au/bmw-m4-v-...2/?s=M4%20c63\
Note: Missed this originally, only added in February 2016.

--------------------------------

Edit (new ones added here):

Cars Guide - Australia - November 2014
(note: only found/added in Decmeber 2015)
M4 vs C63 vs GT-R vs RS5
Winner? M4
http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-revi...5-review-30158



Car and Throttle - December 2014
M3 vs RS4
Winner? Draw (one reviewer said Audi, one said M3)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1071931

Evo - January 2015
M4 vs RS5 vs RC-F
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1084955

Autocar - February 2015
M4 vs RC-F
Winner? Mixed bag.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1088283
Note: BMW destroys lexus in straight line, after some drifting reviewer says he 'maybe might just prefer' Lexus on track because it is more benign....
Still, this might be the best result for M4 with Autocar which continues its general 'hate on' for this car.

Autocar - February 2015
M4 vs RC-F vs RS5
Winner? M4
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...rs5-comparison
Note: Miracle of miracles, the M4 cleanly wins an Autocar comparison - and (IMHO anyway) for the right reasons. Rather than whining that it isn't the sort of car that was made for previous generations, it recognizes the current world and that the M4 is the car for this world.

Chris Harris - February 2015
RC-F v M4
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=45
Note: ok, this isn't a true head to head (it is technically a review of the RC-F on its own) but given the number of times in the first 6 or 7 minutes he says "this car is nowhere near as good as the M3/M4" it gets inclusion in my list.

Top Gear - March 2015
RC-F vs M4
Winner? M4
<link pending scan of article...>

Car Advice (Australia)
RC-F vs M4
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1101446
Note: that article linked to an earlier comaro they did which I list below.

Car Advice (Australia)
M4 vs C63 507
Winner? C63
http://www.caradvice.com.au/297611/b...g-edition-507/

Autohoje (Portugal) - March 2015
M3 vs C63S
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1103467
Note: first published head to head of new C63S and F8X. We know that other reviewers (English, ahem) will likely go a different direction but...interesting all the same.

Auto Express - March 2015
M4 vs RC-F
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1103545
Note: not just a pure 'race' (in which case I wouldn't have included it) but comparison on driving fun, engagement as well.

Car (UK) - April 2015
M3 vs C63
Winner? C63
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1103972

Note: the exact same review (all written by Georg Kacher) was replicated twice more:

Automobile Mag - http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...c63-vs-bmw-m3/

Top Car (South Africa) http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1112991

(with a slightly different concluding line in the automobile mag version)

In any event, I am counting it once but including all three links above. Curious to see how many more times Herr Kacher is able to sell the same review....

Evo - Track Battle - June 2015
C63S v M3
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1139240

Note: this is probably closer to a pure 'time/race' comparison which makes it dicey to include, but there are extended drives of both first with lots of commentary and comparisons so I have kept it in as the likes/dislikes of the reviewer are clear (as is the actual 'race' result). The result is probably summed up in the presenter's phrase "brute force versus precision". Or, put another way, this is yet another installment in the same story that has been between these two for decades now......

Autocar UK - July 2015
C63S v M3 vs Vauxhaull VXR8 GTS
Winner? C63 (M3 second)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1149687
Notes: better handling/power use in M3, but more overall pleasure from C63

DFA - South African Paper - July 2015
C63 S v M3
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1148507
(easier to read version here: http://www.pressreader.com/south-afr...07322/TextView)

Cars.com - July 2015
M4 vs ATS-V vs RC-F
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1150281
Article: https://www.cars.com/articles/whats-...1420680665661/
Note: the link on the f80post thread is to the second page which is just the performance numbers (which is not what this thread is about). But the link I posted above is to the whole article which includes subjective driving impressions and thus makes it part of this thread.

Motorweek - July 2015
M3 vs RC-F vs ATS-V
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1154438

Car & Driver - August 2015
M3 vs C63 S v ATS-V
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1143937
Note: Solid win by M3. Outperforms C63S in 'subjective' and 'objective' characteristics. ATS-V beats them both on subjective (see other posts on 'home field' biases...) but loses out on objective issues.

Car - South Africa
M3 vs C63s
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1156705

Motor Trend - August 2015
M3 vs C63 vs Ats-V
Winner? C63s
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1157663
Notes: M3 3rd as 'closest 3rd place finisher ever'

Whatcar? - August 2015
M3 vs C63S
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1157655
Notes: Rare win for the M3 by the English press (which, as Chris Harris noted long ago, seems to have a hatred for Munich these days....)

Autoweek - August 2015
M3 v C63S
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1161902

Pistonheads - October 2015
M4 vs C63S
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1188487
http://www.pistonheads.com/features/...s-bmw-m4/33154

Pistonheads - November 2015
M4 vs GT-R (45th Anniversary Edition)
Winner? GT-R
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1200587
http://www.pistonheads.com/features/...iversary/33146

Yahoo Autos - December 2015
M3 vs Dodge Charger Hellcat
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1202073

CNET - January 2016 - aka "Road Show Rivals"
ATS-V v C63 v M3
Winner? ATS-V (M3 3rd)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1217948
Note: another win for the caddy in 'murica.
From Youtube video, seems to be their first video review

Car - February 2016
M4 v RC-F v Mustang GT
Winner? RC-F (m4 3rd)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1219421
Note: Car magazine continues its well documented hate on for the F8X.

Motoring Australia - February 2016
M4 v C63S (Coupe)
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1225648
Note: In the video, they mention an earlier comparison with the OLD C63 - which I link to below.

Motor Trend - March 2016
M4 v Camaro SS
Winner? Bitchin' Camaro.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1243979
Note: Camaro was the MT Car of the Year so...they like it lots

Drive (Australia) Head to Head - April 2016
M4 vs C63S
Winner? C63S
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1254536

Autocar - July 2016
M4 Comp Pack v C63S
Winner? C63
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1287675

Chris Harris / Top Gear - August 2016
M3 vs Alfa Quadrifoglio
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1296610
Note: mostly a review of Alfa, but with very clear focus on answering whether it is better than M3 (which he says it isn't, but not by much)

Car Magazine - August 2016
M3 Comp Pack vs C63S vs Alfa Quadrifoglio
Winner? C63. M3 3rd
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1286026

BMW Blog - August 2016
M3 Comp Pack vs Alfa Quadrifoglio
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1287675
Article at: http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/06/30/20...-v-test-drive/

AutoExpress August 2016
M3 vs C63S
Winner? C63S
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1290003

Motormag - 2016 Annual
M4 CP v C63S
Winner? C63S
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1329080

Igntion TV - November 2016
M4 CP v C63S
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1322864

Car Throttle - November 2016
M2 v M4 ZCP
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1327934
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/bmw...s-big-brother/

Autozeitung - December 2016
M3 ZCP v Alfa Quadrifoglio
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1331370
Note: Focusing on the 'overall evaluation' ('Gesamtbewertung') on the right side of the page.
Original/full article here: http://www.autozeitung.de/auto-vergl...m3-competition

Car Magazine (UK) - December 2016
M4 ZCP v Alfa Quadiroglio v C63S
Winner? C 63 (M4 2nd)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1332794

Autobild Magazine - February 2017
M3 ZCP v Alfa Quadiroglio v C63S v ATS-V
Winner? M3 ZCP
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1345187

Motoring Australia - February 2017
M3 ZCP (30 year) v M140i, M2, M4GTS, M5, M6, X6M
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1350130
Notes: I think that is every M or M-lite car in Aus.

Car and Driver - March 2017
M3 CP v Alfa Quadifoglio v C63S v ATS-V
Winner? Alfa. M3 3rd.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1351835
Edit: interestingly, C&D says the M3 ZCP is worse than the original (which beat the C63S back up in August 2015). Outrage, predictably, ensues

Motor Trend - February 2017
M3 CP v C63S v ATS-V v Alfa Quadrifoglio
Winner? Alfa. M3 2nd (ATS-V 3rd, C63 4th)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1351856
Edit: unlike C&D, these guys love the ZCP M3.

Top Gear - May 2017
M3 CP vs Alfa Quadrifoglio
Winner? Alfa.
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1376964

Piston Heads - May 2017
M3 ZCP v Alfa vs C63S
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1385944

Motorsport (France) - May 2017
M3 ZCP v Alfa v Cadillac ATS-V
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1382408

Autoexpress - August 2017
M3 ZCP v C63S v Audi A5
Winner? M3
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1414588
Note: will wonders never cease. a win among the UK press.

Sportauto - August 2017
M4 CS v Mustang Shelby GT 350
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1404031
Note: Somewhat amazing a German mag reviewed a Mustang. Shows the growth of that car; previous gens would have been ignored.

Evo (UK) - November 2017
M4 CP v RS5 v C63S
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1420003
Note: another UK win for the M4. Seems the tide has turned with the ZCP.

Autobild (Germany) - October 2017
M4 CP v RS4 v C63S
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1420713

Sport Auto (Germany) - October 2017
M4 CP v RS5 v ATS-V v RC-F v C63S
Winner? M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1422272
Note: Another powering win for the ZCP

GRIP (German TV) - Sept 2017
M4 ZCP v Corvette C7 Grand Sport
Winner: M4
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1422600

Motor Magazine - October 2017 (Australia)
M4 CP v Giulia QF v C63S
Winner? C63S (M4 rd)
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1414520

Motorsport (France) - October 2017
M4 CS v 911 GTS
Winner? 911
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1433090
Note: one of the few CS comparisons.
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      12-09-2014, 05:34 PM   #2
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Interesting... this must have taken a lot of time to compile but good info.
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      12-09-2014, 05:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Interesting... this must have taken a lot of time to compile but good info.
It may/may not have been my most productive day in the office......

(did I mention we also had a department dinner/party last night?)

Edit:

In February 2016 I moved the original 'preliminary conclusions' from the very original post. Needed somewhere else to put the comments, so sticking them in here.

So…Preliminary Conclusions?

(NB - numbers are based on original comparos only, excluding ones after the edit line above)

(1) F8X has more than held its own. Of 21 data points, we can divide them into two groups: head to head battles (2 to 3 cars max) and 'battle royales' with 10+ cars.

(2) Of the former type, there are 17 represented above. F8X outright won 10 of those. Of the ones it didn’t win, it finished 2nd of three once and then finished last (2nd or 3rd) six times.

(3) In the battle royales, it finished well – in top half of both Speed Week and the Motor Trend Driver's Car of the Year.

(4) Where it did not do well is: England. And, more specifically, Autocar (which alone counts for 3 of 5 "losses" and one of the bad showings in the big battles). Evo was also harsher on it. I expect this attitude is what drove a lot of Chris Harris' recent posting calling out members of the British press for their reviews and comments on this car.

(5) In the USA and on the continent, it has been very strong.

(6) When it has lost, there is not always a consistent pattern (beating a Cayman S in one test, losing in another) BUT, as always, it likely depends on what the reviewer is defining as a ''win". For instance, it loses to a Z51 in a track battle but beats a Z/28 or a 911 in an 'all around track/road/practicality' battle.

(7) ….which is just another way of saying whether it it wins depends on what that test says winning is (if you need more explanations, please go to your local office of the Department of Redundancy Department and ask for the advanced reader on tautologies….)

(8) What is new for this era (that was not really an issue in the E9X era, and not at all before that) is the growing competition from within the brand. Two of the "losses" were to other BMWs. When the decision is between M3/M4 or B3 or D3 or M235 or (soon) M2, the fine lines between which car is "best" will be impossible to measure with any objective stick. It can only come down to which one that particular reviewer prefers. I mean, do I prefer an X3, an X4, an X5 or an X6? (answer: none of them. They are all hideous and dilute the brand. )

(9) Where there has been a "classic" comparison (F8x vs a direct segment competitor) it has won almost every one (right now, that means thumping the RC-F 3 or 4 times). The only exception being the C63 by….(you guessed it) Autocar UK.

(10) Note that almost every single review is M4 only. Why? No sedan competition….yet.

Obviously seeing how the C63 and RS4/5 and ATS (or CTS-V, etc) comparisons work out will be rather key in the future. But, for now? yeah. The sky is still firmly up in the air, folks. This car is a competitor and it is a winner.
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      12-09-2014, 05:45 PM   #4
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The M3/M4 has just changed. It does really well when the test includes a wide range of parameters including daily driveability. The M3/M4 is a more sophisticated car, catering to a broader audience.

Were it doesn't fair well is in the "Best Driver's Car" test. Where they single out track/aggressive driving and driver involvement. Comparing its level of driver involvement to other great driver's cars. It has lost out a bit there, in return the M3/M4 has gained more liveability.

The sky hasn't fallen, the car has just evolved over time.
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      12-09-2014, 05:56 PM   #5
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Sorry but that's a pretty sad list. Luckily driving the car is fun, not sad at all
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      12-09-2014, 05:57 PM   #6
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Oh, here is one:

A comparison of which sports car women find most attractive.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1067502

hahahahahaha.
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      12-09-2014, 05:58 PM   #7
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Sorry but that's a pretty sad list. Luckily driving the car is fun, not sad at all
I dunno. Two ways to look at the 'losses'. One is as a failure of the F8X. The other, the vastly improved competition. I think the latter is more the issue. As a consumer, this is a pretty fantastic market to be shopping in
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      12-09-2014, 06:17 PM   #8
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The D3 in the Autocar comparison YouTube video has zero gas in the tank and the M3 has 1/2 tank.

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      12-09-2014, 06:22 PM   #9
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The D3 in the Autocar comparison YouTube video has zero gas in the tank and the M3 has 1/2 tank.

Chris
Oh I am well aware of the problems with that review.....still, trying not to 'judge' or 'weigh' the reviews here too much, just to see what the macro view looks like.
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      12-09-2014, 06:24 PM   #10
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Sorry. Really great compilation you've done here!

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      12-09-2014, 06:44 PM   #11
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I love your office days like the one that produced this thread. Thanks for adding the female input into this. I'm so proud every male I see driving one of them from now on, their wives must be happy.



Shakira could you ask your wife to give her opinion? I think it would be closer to mine than theirs.
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How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
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      12-09-2014, 06:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
I dunno. Two ways to look at the 'losses'. One is as a failure of the F8X. The other, the vastly improved competition. I think the latter is more the issue. As a consumer, this is a pretty fantastic market to be shopping in
Name an example of current good competition?

Audi: Nope, still heavy and no RWD.
Benz: Nope, still heavy, blingy and no MT or DCT.
Lexus: Nope, still heavy, butt ugly and no MT or DCT.
Jaguar: please, it's still British, kind of.
Cadillac: The look, the name, no thanks.
Stingray/Z06: getting there, fast.
Porsche: Always been better, still is.

Same old story, just BMW that has lost some soul, still better than the reasonable competition bar Porsche. Well, the Vette is one example I guess.

Last edited by solstice; 12-09-2014 at 07:00 PM..
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      12-09-2014, 07:07 PM   #13
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Name an example of current good competition?

Audi: Nope, still heavy and no RWD.
Audi exterior design has picked up big time from previous years. The A5 is fantastic looking (IMHO, an RS5 actually looks much sexier than an F82). We are also a long way aways from the mid-90s when they were lumbering beasts. Sure, still not as good as an ///M but they are getting better.

Quote:
Benz: Nope, still heavy and no MT or DCT.
Again, the new C63 will give the F8X a genuine run for its money. Based on what I know now, I happen to agree with both of your comments as to why my leaning would be strongly ///M but, again, the new AMG is much improved compared to the old one. Frankly, even the post-LCI old W204 beat the E9X in a test or two so we should not be surprised when some people (even some not named Sutcliffe) like the W205 even more.

Quote:
Lexus: Nope, still heavy, butt ugly and no MT or DCT.
Hence its getting beat down each time. But, again, my point was that things are getting better out there. Not that the competition has put BMW down into the dust, never to rise again, just that they are getting better. All these companies are pushing BMW harder and harder - and I think that is the key.

Quote:
Jaguar: please, it's still British, kind of.


That new little car they have (what? XEJ or something) might be something. (to my mind, the F-Type is not really a direct competitor of the M3. More like an M6 / E63 coupe type car).

Quote:
Porsche: Always been better, still is.
But that depends on which Porsche...

911? The old E9X beat the 911 in a few comparisons. I'm not sure the old one was that great, but by all accounts the new 991 is a great car. Frankly, it should be much better than an M4....though (at least the C&D test will say) it isn't always.

I think the Cayman is the most natural F8X comparison of the bunch - at least vs an M4. (Not nearly as practical as an M3 so will lose that fight every time....). I think that the Cayman and an M4 are actually pretty well matched, whereas I think the old Cayman was not as great (and the original boxter was awful). Again, Porsche is doing things now that will make the M4 work much harder for the win - which is good.

Quote:
Same old story, just BMW that has lost some soul, still better than the reasonable competition bar Porsche.
Well, the 'loss of soul' thing is a whole other thread/topic (I would disagree for the reasons stated at least in part in that old post about nostalgia and how it colours our vision....)

But, really, the point I was trying to drive on the competition thing isn't that the other cars are better than the F8X. Rather, that they are much better than they were and are much closer to the M3/M4 - and in some cases, in the right test, with the right conditions as a 'win' might even beat the M3/M4.

To my mind, what that does is make BMW have to work harder - which abso-freaking-lutely has to be a good thing for those of us who are naturally drawn to the works of Bavaria, right?
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      12-09-2014, 07:16 PM   #14
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lol I giggle like a little school girl when someone says a car has lost it's soul or has no soul
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      12-09-2014, 07:24 PM   #15
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lol I giggle like a little school girl when someone says a car has lost it's soul or has no soul
because you have no soul.....

Who knows? Maybe BMW just sold their soul to this guy -->
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      12-09-2014, 07:40 PM   #16
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So what you are saying is that the competition is getting better faster than BMW and thereby narrowing the gap? Maybe, and that's the core of any complaint made about the F8X. That it's not a universally significantly better car than it's predecessor. I agree with that, it's not but it's still the best engine ( yes I think it's better than the S63 ) and chassis in BMW's lineup, both separately and as a package. It's an M3 and the competition seem more interested in pleasing it's traditional customers than coming at the M3 when it finally has opened up some weak spots. I'm actually a bit disappointed in that, I think the competition easily could have raised their game by just paying some attention to what M3 driver's prefer. Maybe next generation.
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      12-09-2014, 09:25 PM   #17
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Nicely done, once again. Don't stress about blowing an afternoon on this. Just find a few big corporate clients to schlep in a few "to review of matter"'s in and you're good to go.

Maybe my recollection has been muddied by perception vs actual, but the e90 really started knocking them down about one year out. A think it's going to take a few competitor model releases and comparisons before this car hits its stride with the reviewers.

I'm already booking tickets for myzmak III.
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      12-09-2014, 09:32 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
So what you are saying is that the competition is getting better faster than BMW and thereby narrowing the gap? Maybe, and that's the core of any complaint made about the F8X. That it's not a universally significantly better car than it's predecessor. I agree with that, it's not but it's still the best engine ( yes I think it's better than the S63 ) and chassis in BMW's lineup, both separately and as a package. It's an M3 and the competition seem more interested in pleasing it's traditional customers than coming at the M3 when it finally has opened up some weak spots. I'm actually a bit disappointed in that, I think the competition easily could have raised their game by just paying some attention to what M3 driver's prefer. Maybe next generation.
Solstice, much as anyone can like a total stranger on the interweb, I like you. You are smart and thoughtful and your comments on these forums are very helpful (even if you have misguided hockey loyalties....) but man oh man are you sometimes a glass is half empty kind of guy

i look at it like this: when the E46 and prior M3s were around, there was really no competition to speak of. Between BMW and its rivals, there was a very wide, clear, easy to see and in fact impossible to miss gap. The target was clear.

Over the next generations, the competition moved on that gap. The C63 became much better. The RS4 became much better. They were actually legitimate competitors to the M3. Sure, M3 was generally better....but not necessarily. Again, by the mid cycle C63 some people preferred it to the M3 - which would have been unheard of with the E46 or earlier. But, on the whole, E9x was still far enough in front that there was a clear gap and target for others to aim for.

The same thing is happening now. Others are moving on that gap

I guess one could say (pessimistically) that over the last 2 generations the M3 has not improved as much as the others, but I think that is unfair. How much farther can BMW go? At the end of the day, these are cars. The goal is pretty simple: make it go fast, handle well and look nice. For a long time some car cos just focussed on 'go fast' whereas BMW knew it took all 3. BMW dominated, they scratched their heads. Now, though, those others are trying to hit those 3 points. And they are getting better.

But if you are BMW and you already nailed those 3 where do you go? A little faster? Sure - but at some point physics says you can only go so fast. Handle better? Ok, but the faster you go the harder handling becomes. Look nice? Yes, but with 4 wheels and kidney grilles there are only so many things you can do (especially as you let function dictate form and you get various design elements used to create downward force like all the venting, etc)

So just by virtue of having had the magic formula much earlier than its rivals, BMW can only go so far. By contrast, if you are Ford and you previously built a car that went like stink but handled like a pig, well, improve the handling and look at thr dramatic leap you have made. People will be excited. If you are Chevrolet and your previously awful corvette now goes fast, drives well AND looks very nice people will positively cream themselves. If you are Audi or MB, maybe you actually hit the cycle and get all 3. Then it becomes a very personal debate as to which is best....

BMW? They get the 'so, what have you done for me lately?' response. Which is fine enough - front runners get that kind of attention - but, by definition, they have less room to go. 'Oh sure you are faster, more efficient, lighter, look lovely, loaded with tech but you don't sound the way I want you to sound'. Or 'you are too crazy and raw' or 'you are too clinical'. The front runner is always the target even when the complaints are often self-conflicting and nonsensical (again,moistness Sutcliffe or EVO saying in review 1 the car is only good at its limits and then in review 2 saying it can't handle its limits....).*

So, long answer but I don't fault BMW for not moving the ball further.

As for the competition, their challenge is to meet BMW while still appealing to their traditional markets. Guys like us may be happy that a corvette or mustang now knows what a corner looks like (or that there is more to racing than a drag strip) but the traditional buyer wants POWER. So they have to do both. The classic mercedes buyer will be all 'row my own gears? What am I? Poor?' So MB doesn't sell that to him.

But, on that point, I agree with you completely. I would love it if those other companies came right at BMW and made a better M3 than BMW makes. How could I lose there?

*for what it is worth, I think TG and Clarkson are right here on what BMW is doing. As a company, BMW knows the next place to be way out in front is in the mass market electric sports car. The i8 is that game changer. It is the E30 M3 of our time. Once again, their rivals are chasing behind them.
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      12-09-2014, 09:40 PM   #19
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Nicely done, once again. Don't stress about blowing an afternoon on this. Just find a few big corporate clients to schlep in a few "to review of matter"'s in and you're good to go.

Maybe my recollection has been muddied by perception vs actual, but the e90 really started knocking them down about one year out. A think it's going to take a few competitor model releases and comparisons before this car hits its stride with the reviewers.

I'm already booking tickets for myzmak III.
Clubber Lang is gonna be a real challenge though......

And I agree. The total proof on the F80 will be how it does against the C63, RS5 and maybe ATS-V. I fully expect some reviews to beat the M3 for the reasons I just explained in yet another long winded post)

....and as for billing a large corporate client for all this, I mean, what? Who.....would....ever......do....uhhhhhhhh.......y eah never mind.
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      12-09-2014, 09:59 PM   #20
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The half empty glass again, huh? Well, there was nothing empty about the glass when I went from the F10 to the E90 M3...it was overflowing at a rate and volume that it would have filled a black hole .

Where do BMW go? Offer a cheaper GT3 competitor wth seating for 4. That target would have gotten my full approval and is way in front of the best they've done this far. The direction would be enough independent of how close they could actually get.
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      12-09-2014, 10:09 PM   #21
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The half empty glass again, huh? Well, there was nothing empty about the glass when I went from the F10 to the E90 M3...it was overflowing at a rate and volume that it would have filled a black hole .

Where do BMW go? Offer a cheaper GT3 competitor wth seating for 4. That target would have gotten my full approval and is way in front of the best they've done this far. The direction would be enough independent of how close they could actually get.
That would be a nice car. But someone would have said the ride is too harsh. And someone else that it burned too much gas. And someone else that it was too big. Or not big enough.

As for the filling of the glass, if you came to an F80 from something much less appealing? The glass would be overfilling at the same rate as it did for you. Everyone's 'first' is special.....
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      12-10-2014, 01:40 AM   #22
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thanks! solid read. you want to take on my wife's credit card statement next?

the evo write up for their COTY was really harsh compared to most everything I've read or watched and that surprised me
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