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      12-10-2014, 06:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by trinim3 View Post
The i8 in my eyes is a hybrid not an all electric car. It's a sporty prius as opposed to a sporty Tesla (i actually mean this as a compliment). I think that's one of the most misunderstood things about the i8. You can put gas in it. You can't put gas in a Tesla.
Oh, it is technically a hybrid for sure (hence the 1.5L inline 3 I have mentioned a few times) but my point is that this is the first really successful application of any electric technology in a mass produced, profitable sports car. Previous hybrids in 'sporty' cars were awful wastes of money. Either the electric power was so limited as to be useless (think every Lexus hybrid, probably the previous BMW hybrids too, etc) or the petrol was so we as to be useless (again, Prius, etc).

This one actually does drive and compete with sports cars, yet has major power delivered from the electric motor.

The Tesla isn't made as a sports car any more than a 5 series or E class is (it isn't). It is 'sporty' but that isn't its main role. The tech is not yet there to make a true all electric sports car, but.....that day will come, probably once they figure out a way to make the batteries weigh much, much, much less. In the near-mid term the future will see electric/combustion sports car combinations like the i8. And to get back to @m4tw's point, I think the next gen M3 could well be on that path, perhaps with an inline 4.

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Electric cars problems exist less with demand / desire from consumers and more from limitations due to lack of infrastructure to support it which hybrids (i8 or prius) do not have
Agreed.

Three things will happen: the infrastructure will grow, people will get better at the tech to make more electric power more available and useful in a true sports car (ie: light!) but at the same time this whole 'performance hybrid' market the i8 and, at a higher level, P1, LaF, 918, etc have created will also grow.

Who wins? Dunno. But one way or the other, the performance cars of the mid-long term future will not rely on V8s or V10s or V12s. At least not alone. Electric power will become an integral part of the performance cars of the future, be they M3, C63 or whatever.

Edit: After 'dumping' on the Lexus hybrid minutes ago, by chance I came across what is the single greatest story of a Lexus hybrid and a car reviewer of all time.

http://jalopnik.com/i-shat-myself-in...car-1658777421

Honestly. I am crying with laughter in my office as I read this. My colleagues think I am crazy (even more so than normal).
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Last edited by myzmak; 12-10-2014 at 06:52 PM.. Reason: to add the story about the reviewer shitting himself in a lexus
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      12-10-2014, 07:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by M3guy3 View Post
any major car company right now could pull together a ton of money and resources and make a car like Tesla.
Not in a million years.

(1.) most companies are hugely risk averse, they're never going to green light an unknown.

(2.) Most automobile manufacturers can barely pull together enough money to keep their ops going and invest in existing equip

(3.) They don't have the talent and the talent doesn't want to work for them

(4.) They don't know how to run a moonshot project, create new supply chains, develop technology from the ground up, etc - see talent

(5.) They have no incentive to - let Tesla take all the risk and then just copy / use their technology and supply chain


The Germans can push the envelope a bit, and are, but none of them would take on a project like building a Tesla.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      12-10-2014, 10:12 PM   #47
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How could you leave out this review? You must be biased. And who cares if it was found on the Lexus YouTube channel?

http://gtspeed.us/lexus-and-amci-tes...w-m4-audi-rs5/

Seriously, good job on this. Really enjoying the thread.
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      12-10-2014, 10:23 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damasconian View Post
How could you leave out this review? You must be biased. And who cares if it was found on the Lexus YouTube channel?

http://gtspeed.us/lexus-and-amci-tes...w-m4-audi-rs5/

Seriously, good job on this. Really enjoying the thread.
I love paid advertising. Justin is on Lexus' payroll (he actually is) so reviews like this are pretty much useless. But I'm biased
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      12-10-2014, 10:28 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I love paid advertising. Justin is on Lexus' payroll (he actually is) so reviews like this are pretty much useless. But I'm biased
Justin Bell drives for Lexus and has a Lexus dealership in Arizona. Not surprising he picked the Lexus. How could they think people would take that comparo review seriously
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      12-10-2014, 10:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Damasconian View Post
How could you leave out this review? You must be biased. And who cares if it was found on the Lexus YouTube channel?

http://gtspeed.us/lexus-and-amci-tes...w-m4-audi-rs5/

Seriously, good job on this. Really enjoying the thread.
hahahahaha. That is an awesome find.

"Well, we asked some employees of Toyota to compare the 2002 Yaris to the new 911 and you know what? They all preferred the Yaris, hands down...."
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      12-11-2014, 01:36 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Not in a million years.

(1.) most companies are hugely risk averse, they're never going to green light an unknown.

(2.) Most automobile manufacturers can barely pull together enough money to keep their ops going and invest in existing equip

(3.) They don't have the talent and the talent doesn't want to work for them

(4.) They don't know how to run a moonshot project, create new supply chains, develop technology from the ground up, etc - see talent

(5.) They have no incentive to - let Tesla take all the risk and then just copy / use their technology and supply chain


The Germans can push the envelope a bit, and are, but none of them would take on a project like building a Tesla.
i never said they would be successful or profitable. i said they could do something like what Tesla does. make electric cars......
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      12-11-2014, 08:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by M3guy3 View Post
i never said they would be successful or profitable. i said they could do something like what Tesla does. make electric cars......
And I could give up my day job and spend my life as a full time football player. I may not get paid, my family may starve and we'd lose our home but......
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      12-11-2014, 10:21 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Justin Bell drives for Lexus and has a Lexus dealership in Arizona. Not surprising he picked the Lexus. How could they think people would take that comparo review seriously
You say that now, but you're probably going to come across some idiot who cites this video.

That should be the result.
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      12-11-2014, 11:19 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by M3guy3 View Post
i never said they would be successful or profitable. i said they could do something like what Tesla does. make electric cars......
I hear ya, I'm just pointing out that they probably can't/won't, and I think it's yet to known whether Tesla itself will be successful / profitable.

It's pretty easy to see a future where the Tesla car is reference implementation of their IP and they transform into technology and parts supplier.
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      02-16-2015, 07:20 PM   #55
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Thoughts on the F8x

I have been reading and listening to a lot of F8x reviews... Some are good some are bad. I think I do it mostly for entertainment as I don't need anyone telling me how good or bad my car is... At the end of the day I reflect on my M3 and can't help but think how everytime I get in the car it puts a smile on my face. I know it is perfect for me and that is something no expert can argue. So find your perfect car and have fun with it. Be safe!
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      02-16-2015, 07:38 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3maniac View Post
I have been reading and listening to a lot of F8x reviews... Some are good some are bad. I think I do it mostly for entertainment as I don't need anyone telling me how good or bad my car is... At the end of the day I reflect on my M3 and can't help but think how everytime I get in the car it puts a smile on my face. I know it is perfect for me and that is something no expert can argue. So find your perfect car and have fun with it. Be safe!
"Stay gold ponyboy"!
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      02-17-2015, 04:33 PM   #57
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I been updatin' the list at the top.

If I have missed anything, please PM me with the deets.
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      02-18-2015, 09:01 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2final
Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Justin Bell drives for Lexus and has a Lexus dealership in Arizona. Not surprising he picked the Lexus. How could they think people would take that comparo review seriously
You say that now, but you're probably going to come across some idiot who cites this video.

That should be the result.
I can show you where a bunch of idiots believe that video: club lexus forums.

But what is hilarious is that they are trying to bury and ignore the Chris Harris review. That video was brutal to the RCF.
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      02-18-2015, 09:10 AM   #59
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I lurked there when I was considering a Lexus, but haven't been there in over a year. I was going to "settle" for a GS F Sport or the IS F Sport, but I'm really glad I didn't... I think part of me just wanted a new car, because I didn't want to wait.
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      02-18-2015, 03:35 PM   #60
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Not only is it putting a smile on my face, its putting a smile on the face of my 2 co-workers who got to take it for a spin.

And as we've discussed before, the reviews for this car are equal to the E9X reviews when they first came out. It's a great car, lets see what the naysayers do when they actually drive one.
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      02-18-2015, 03:52 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrtyJrze View Post
I can show you where a bunch of idiots believe that video: club lexus forums.

But what is hilarious is that they are trying to bury and ignore the Chris Harris review. That video was brutal to the RCF.
i understand caring about journo reviews from a purchase perspective ... but even then only mildly.

My serious question to anyone who cares to answer is: who gives a fuck about reviews? what am I missing?

It's hard for me to give fewers fucks about what a complete douche like clarkson thinks, and chris harris bores me but I am very mildly interested in his opinion. carlos is great except he's more info with some slight opinions so I don't think you can even call him a "review" which is why I think he's the best journo.

Anyway - why are people spending so much time caring about what some random journo thinks, who likely drives totally differently than themselves, and certainly isn't telling them anything equal to what a test drive would tell them?
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      02-18-2015, 05:29 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
i understand caring about journo reviews from a purchase perspective ... but even then only mildly.

My serious question to anyone who cares to answer is: who gives a fuck about reviews? what am I missing?

It's hard for me to give fewers fucks about what a complete douche like clarkson thinks, and chris harris bores me but I am very mildly interested in his opinion. carlos is great except he's more info with some slight opinions so I don't think you can even call him a "review" which is why I think he's the best journo.

Anyway - why are people spending so much time caring about what some random journo thinks, who likely drives totally differently than themselves, and certainly isn't telling them anything equal to what a test drive would tell them?
Of course this is right, why should anyone care?

At the end of the day, whether Sutcliffe or Lagos or Harris or Clarkson or Probst or anyone else likes or dislikes the car does not affect my own subjective experience with and appreciation for the car. When driving it, I can honestly say I have never thought of another reviewer or one of the nay sayers on this forum. Ever.

But, as the originator of this thread (and others like it) I can at least offer my own answer(s) for why I created it: Mostly, it is about trying to keep people honest when generalizing about the car. There is a view out there that the E9X was untouchable and never criticized. That was not so, but it has become this popular belief to the point of being an unchallengeable proposition. Many of the same believers of that folk tale also say that the F8X has been comparatively panned or ripped apart in reviews. Again, not true. Where it becomes a problem is when the usual army of trolls comes over here to find any positive commentary on the F8X and drops in a 'yeah, but the car gets shit reviews, not like the E9X which was a god among men, etc, etc'.

Those comments were getting common and repetetive enough to start to be damn annoying and (being the sort of weirdo I am) I wanted to have a nice convenient source of knowledge to say "no, that is wrong, go away" in response to their unsupported vague generalities.

So I created these compilations for my own nerdy use and then wrote them up and published them cause, hey, maybe there are other losers like me out there (sorry boys, you've proved its true. losers. )

Implicit in all of that, I am an argumentative son of a bitch by nature. So if it helps me argue, I like it.

This stuff helps me argue with those clowns.

Lastly, fuck man, some of us had to wait longer than you to get our hands on one of these and reviews (from the pros or even guys like this loser () were all we had to go on as we lived vicariously:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/80452...pean-delivery/)

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      02-18-2015, 05:42 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
Of course this is right, why should anyone care?

At the end of the day, whether Sutcliffe or Lagos or Harris or Clarkson or Probst or anyone else likes or dislikes the car does not affect my own subjective experience with and appreciation for the car. When driving it, I can honestly say I have never thought of another reviewer or one of the nay sayers on this forum. Ever.

But, as the originator of this thread (and others like it) I can at least offer my own answer(s) for why I created it: Mostly, it is about trying to keep people honest when generalizing about the car. There is a view out there that the E9X was untouchable and never criticized. That was not so, but it has become this popular belief to the point of being an unchallengeable proposition. Many of the same believers of that folk tale also say that the F8X has been comparatively panned or ripped apart in reviews. Again, not true. Where it becomes a problem is when the usual army of trolls comes over here to find any positive commentary on the F8X and drops in a 'yeah, but the car gets shit reviews, not like the E9X which was a god among men, etc, etc'.

Those comments were getting common and repetetive enough to start to be damn annoying and (being the sort of weirdo I am) I wanted to have a nice convenient source of knowledge to say "no, that is wrong, go away" in response to their unsupported vague generalities. In that regard, by and large they done a great job...though some areas that were hyped up have turned out to be a bit underwhelming. Overall, the car has certainly moved ahead.

So I created these compilations for my own nerdy use and then wrote them up and published them cause, hey, maybe there are other losers like me out there (sorry boys, you've proved its true. losers. )

Implicit in all of that, I am an argumentative son of a bitch by nature. So if it helps me argue, I like it.

This stuff helps me argue with those clowns.

Lastly, fuck man, some of us had to wait longer than you to get our hands on one of these and reviews (from the pros or even guys like this loser () were all we had to go on as we lived vicariously:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/80452...pean-delivery/)

End of the day, this is right as far as not caring about reviews which may or may not be biased.

Every street car is compromised in some way, and there are no exceptions to that.

Furthermore, no M3 ever, whether past, present or future is going to be winning "Best" anything. There are plenty of better handling, better braking, faster, you name it better cars out there. What matters most is how BMW moved the M3 from one generation to another. By and large, it is vastly improved, though some of the "hyped" up areas (cough steering couch) are still far from an industry best. Overall, there are more areas that improved than those that didn't.

Last edited by Revcrazy; 02-18-2015 at 06:18 PM..
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      02-18-2015, 06:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
Implicit in all of that, I am an argumentative son of a bitch by nature. So if it helps me argue, I like it.
now THAT'S something I understand!

that said, it just seems like there's been a lot of, "omg! clarkson like it! he likes it! he's soooo dreamy "

which makes me
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      02-18-2015, 06:06 PM   #65
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I dunno, the comment I dislike the most in all of these discussions is the one raised by the fan boys as soon as any criticism is raised to the tune of that "it always been like that when a new car comes out". Instead of challenging criticism with real insights or views it's dismissed with a totally useless "it always happens". Wtf.
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      02-18-2015, 06:37 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
now THAT'S something I understand!

that said, it just seems like there's been a lot of, "omg! clarkson like it! he likes it! he's soooo dreamy "

which makes me
God, have you seen the gut he is carrying this year? I know he has had a rough year (apology for the 'eeny meeny' incident, separating from wife, being chased from argentina, etc) but the man could do a sit up every now and then.....

Anyway, yeah, no dreamy-ness here.

I do confess to being pleased that a well known journalist (quality issues aside) gushed about the car but....that is more like when I am dressed well and know it and have someone make the point. I know it to be true, but...I'm not gonna complain if you say it all the same. cause I am an

(really, just wanted to use that one)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I dunno, the comment I dislike the most in all of these discussions is the one raised by the fan boys as soon as any criticism is raised to the tune of that "it always been like that when a new car comes out". Instead of challenging criticism with real insights or views it's dismissed with a totally useless "it always happens". Wtf.
Fair point. Speaking for myself, I think I've tortured enough people on this forum with a drive for detail and specifics and a hatred of generalities such that I'm probably more disliked for being too willing to engage in (long winded) specific challenges to criticisms or insights.....So, yes, I agree, vague and dismissive is bad, specific is good.

That said, I think it is a valid point that it has happened before (you've maybe seen me use it, but there is a great quote from the NYT when the E9X that sums the phenomenon so well....). Some of the E46 crowd did it to E90 and some of the E90 are doing it now. As time passes, inevitably those people fade away (as many of them get the new car and realize their initial opinions were not always well founded....)

In general, I dislike both fanatical dumping on the new car as much as I dislike fanatical defending of the new car. It has its faults, it has its wonderful points. On balance, from my reading, the car has been received very well and the efforts of a few naysayers to say otherwise should not be effective.
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