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      07-24-2017, 02:37 PM   #45
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The cost to convert to a Stoptech or AP kit probably covers in one rotor change.
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      07-24-2017, 02:39 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterP View Post
The cost to convert to a Stoptech or AP kit probably covers in one rotor change.
Any experience or feedback on the aftermarket Brembo brake kits for the M3/M4?
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      07-24-2017, 02:47 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Any experience or feedback on the aftermarket Brembo brake kits for the M3/M4?
Brembo's GT kits aren't my cup of tea. The monoblock GT calipers have to be removed to change the pads. AP and Stoptech you just remove the bridge bolts. and slide the pads from the top. Also Brembo GT pads are typically 18.5mm only. AP Radical can go 20-22-25mm and ST I get custom made 22mm's.
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      07-24-2017, 02:49 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterP View Post
Brembo's GT kits aren't my cup of tea. The monoblock GT calipers have to be removed to change the pads. AP and Stoptech you just remove the bridge bolts. and slide the pads from the top. Also Brembo GT pads are typically 18.5mm only. AP Radical can go 20-22-25mm and ST I get custom made 22mm's.
I was just looking at the AP and Stoptech offerings. I was asking myself just that question. Good to know you don't have to remove the calipers for Stoptech and AP. That is a significant feature...

Thanks!
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      07-24-2017, 02:53 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterP View Post
Brembo's GT kits aren't my cup of tea. The monoblock GT calipers have to be removed to change the pads. AP and Stoptech you just remove the bridge bolts. and slide the pads from the top. Also Brembo GT pads are typically 18.5mm only. AP Radical can go 20-22-25mm and ST I get custom made 22mm's.
Looking at pictures of the AP calipers, I don't see bridge bolts passing through the calipers. Are they just running from the back side and don't pass all the way through?
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      07-24-2017, 02:54 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
I was just looking at the AP and Stoptech offerings. I was asking myself just that question. Good to know you don't have to remove the calipers for Stoptech and AP. That is a significant feature...

Thanks!
So I see the AP kit as more track focused. The ST as double duty, but a few points behind on the pure track element.
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      07-24-2017, 02:55 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Looking at pictures of the AP calipers, I don't see bridge bolts passing through the calipers. Are they just running from the back side and don't pass all the way through?
You're probably looking at the RadiCal. They use a clip and some discreet bolts
.
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      07-24-2017, 02:57 PM   #52
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Actually looks like it's an either or.




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      07-24-2017, 03:00 PM   #53
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This is the one I was looking at here: https://maximumpsi.com/product/ap-ra...-bbk-f8x-m3m4/

Dont see any bolts/clips...
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      07-24-2017, 03:41 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
This is the one I was looking at here: https://maximumpsi.com/product/ap-ra...-bbk-f8x-m3m4/

Dont see any bolts/clips...
Oh. lol. Yeah not that kit. I was referring to the AP/ESSEX
kits.
https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...-f87m2f80m3f82
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      07-25-2017, 09:31 AM   #55
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Lots of good info in this thread, thanks! I recently swapped my steel setup with a guy that was turning his car in on lease, got the CCB rotors, pads, calipers, heat shields and bought the brake booster and had the car re-programmed. He claimed he put 10k miles on the setup (his car was originally steel too) and so far so good. I checked the "mileage estimator" in the computer on the way home and it showed 100k front and 80k rear left...I'll just keep a close eye on the rotor markings and check pads every once in a while.

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      07-25-2017, 04:59 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
You check the PAD wear the same way you do for regular pads. Just examine/measure their thickness... Pad sensors are consumables as they get tripped when the pad backing plates get close enough to the rotors. Once tripped, the sensors have to be replaced. I've heard that some folks claim that changing CCB pads when they are only half used will extend the life of the CCB rotors. However, this should only have to be a consideration if you are using your car on the track.

Coincidentally, I just measured a new set of CCB Pads. The friction material is about 13mm thick on new front pads and 12mm thick on new rear pads.

If the car you are considering buying is a street car, then the CCB Rotors/Pads should last "almost forever". If its a track car, then they can burn off rather quickly...

BTW - I also just tried installing the RacingBrake CCB Iron Rotor Conversion Kit. (Iron Rotors and Track Pads to replace the CCB components - You keep the existing CCB calipers.) Lots of problems with this kit. The front "track" pads lasted less than a day and a half on the track and the backing plates were permanently deformed under brake loading. Backing plates hit the rotors without even tripping the pad sensor. Destroyed the front rotors. I have lots of photos and info. I've sent the kit back for a refund and I'll wait to see how RacingBrake handles this case before I start a new thread to document my experience... Anyway, CCB's back on the car (for now)!
I appreciate the response. So I went back to check out the M6 GC with CCBs I might be buying... This car has 38,000 miles on it.

The rotor wear indicators checks out just fine. Full circles, looks just like the manual and I'm comfortable taking ownership.

However, I checked the CBS and the front pads says needs changing in 22,000 miles and rears says 13,000. Which is way lower than expected.

Sure, I can change the pads for $2k or so, but I'm concerned that this car's rotor wear is also on an accelerated schedule as well.

Any advice or thoughts. (I'm aware the M6 is a 4400lb car and this is a F80 forum with 3400 lb cars, but seriously, 22k/13k doesn't look right to me.
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      07-26-2017, 08:13 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
I appreciate the response. So I went back to check out the M6 GC with CCBs I might be buying... This car has 38,000 miles on it.

The rotor wear indicators checks out just fine. Full circles, looks just like the manual and I'm comfortable taking ownership.

However, I checked the CBS and the front pads says needs changing in 22,000 miles and rears says 13,000. Which is way lower than expected.

Sure, I can change the pads for $2k or so, but I'm concerned that this car's rotor wear is also on an accelerated schedule as well.

Any advice or thoughts. (I'm aware the M6 is a 4400lb car and this is a F80 forum with 3400 lb cars, but seriously, 22k/13k doesn't look right to me.
If the wear indicators show a good status then what makes you think that the rotors are on an accelerated schedule?

I think you are stressing way too much about this. CCB's are a perfect option for the street. They last forever and produce no brake dust...

Changing the CCB pads doesn't cost $2K in any case. I think the fronts are about $600 (pair) and the rears are about $300 (pair).

Measure the CCB pad thickness to confirm how much is left. I measured my last set to be 12-13mm thick when new.

If the wear indicators say the rotors are good then I would go with that. In my experience they are actually pretty conservative. I've seen them look pretty "worn" on my track car (M4) when there was actually about 50% life left in the rotors (as confirmed by my Carboteq instrument). The Carboteq is the absolute authority in determining the status of a CCB rotor - BMW even stamps each rotor with max/min Carboteq values in 3 places. You could also weigh the rotors if you have a decent scale. My side-by-side comparison of weight measurement vs the Carboteq indicates that weighing the rotors is almost as accurate (although you have to take the rotors off the car). The Carboteq can be used without removing the rotors... The wear indicators are the least accurate method to determine wear. They will scrub off pretty well during track use but seem to re-acquire a representaive coating during street use (iow: you can't rely on them on a track car).

Stop stressing! Enjoy your new car (without brake dust)! Change the pads if/when the time comes...

;-)
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      07-26-2017, 08:22 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
- I'm aware of the proper caliper removal process and which bolts need to be undone. (Been There done that!)

- In fact, my BMW Service Center did the Brake Conversion using the RB Rotors and Pads...

- RB makes no mention of any coding changes being necessary. I know BMW did re-code my car when I had them upgrade my M6 from BMW Iron to BMW CCB's but the RB kit does not mention that requirement. I expect that since we are using the same Calipers, and the rotors and pads have the same dimensions, that no coding changes were required.

- The RB Conversion kit seemed to perform OK, but its longevity, design, and construction are not acceptable (IMHO)... If coding were to be required I would expect that to be somewhat obvious wrt braking performance...
I honestly wouldn't expect RB to address coding as it's BMW Proprietary software, it requires somewhat individual settings depending on the options fitted to the car, and this conversion isn't supported in Guided Measures options which makes it complicated to use ISTA. However ISTA does have the tools within to make the appropriate adjustments. The calipers and pads are the same, however the operation of the servo motor, DSC Hydropump, and the interaction between the two are significantly different between MCCB and M Compound. The attached image shows a very general excel file to allow manual extrapolation of data to recalibrate the system. There are a few dozen to follow and utilize data pulled from the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo08816 View Post
Who is the OEM manufacturer for the CCB rotors and pad?
MCCB discs are manufactured by Brembo/SGL using carbon fibers from the Boeing-BMW/SGL Recycling facility in Moses Lake. Pads are supplied by TMD Friction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterP View Post
That was for a full set at standard retail prices.

I cannot speak for BMW's rotor wear under track use since they are structurally different from the Brembo made CCB's my Mclaren uses and the car is much heavier than anything I've tracked with carbon brakes. But my personal experience is the rotors have worn out after 6 track days on the same pads. A friend in a 675 got 8-9 on his, but he was tossing his pads at half worn since the pads were cheaper than the rotors. This is at a GP track so a small local track could have been different. More heat is transferred to the discs and fluid as the pad thins.

The CCB's in the BMW's seem to be a bit more robust than the CCM's in the Mclaren/Ferrari/Aston/Corvette's. The CCB's BMW uses are SGL so that's the same type being used on Porsche/Audi/Lambo. You can see their structure is quite different and the silicon carbide friction layer is said to be denser on the SGL versions.

I've had the CCM's on the Mclaren and the fiber's would actually fall off the rotor as they wore. You can tell instantly when you look at a car with CCM's if it's been tracked. Street only cars rotors will look like glass. Tracked cars will be dull and rotors will have pockmarks in the friction surface.

The CCB's in my Superlegerra stayed like glass even after track use. You have to weigh those for sure to measure wear beyond the wear indicators.

I ran RSC1's in the Mclaren and the biggest difference is bite and heat tolerance. The standard pads feel like tracking on a street pad. You can still fade ceramic brakes and usually it's pad fade. The RSC1's have much better bite and will take everything you can throw at them. I find it remarkable anyone would track on the pads BMW issues from the factory. Maybe people aren't stepping up to really grippy tires because of the forced 19's to notice.

Main thing about pad wear on brakes is cooling. These cars have no factory brake cooling. Not even an attempt was made from the factory to cool them. Even my X5M has brake ducts and air guides. These cars are 3400-3600 pounds and lots of power. They need cooling if durability is a concern.
I gave a breakdown of the various type of rotors in this post:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=38

Oddly enough, on the Fxx M5/6, when MCCB is fitted, the cooling ducts are blocked off.
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      07-26-2017, 10:50 AM   #59
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Are ANY of the aftermarket brake kit manufacturers (Brembo, Stoptech, AP...) offering up specific coding info for their F8X specific kits?

...are most folks (installing upgrade kits) doing nothing? ...or perhaps just using the established coding for M compound Iron brakes?
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      07-26-2017, 11:19 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Are ANY of the aftermarket brake kit manufacturers (Brembo, Stoptech, AP...) offering up specific coding info for their F8X specific kits?

...are most folks (installing upgrade kits) doing nothing? ...or perhaps just using the established coding for M compound Iron brakes?
The Brembo/AP Kits (they're the same company) sold with road use certification are designed so as to not require any software modifications.

This is a different scenario however. The way BMW had to program the artificial behavior into the active servo motor/brake pedal and the down line actuations of the individual circuits specifically for CCB is different than going iron-to-iron BBK (in most applications). MCCB has the artificial cold temp mushy pedal, NO fade compensation, different ABS pulsing, etc etc.

When you had the retrofit done on your M6, the servo motor was changed and the DSC, ICM, and Servotronic reprogrammed accordingly. Inversely, on my M5, when the MCCB was removed as part of the armoring program, the same modules were recalibrated.

Some companies do offer DSC calibration services using the supplier software, but this service is not cheap.
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      10-16-2018, 10:10 PM   #61
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I have two questions:

1) This might be a newbie question, but can I measure my CCB pads without taking the wheels off?

2) When I buy the CCB replacement pads (assuming no rotor change needed) do I just buy the pads SKU 34212284990 (rear) and SKU 34112284970 (front) or do I have to buy a pad kit with sensors and other consumables?

Thanks
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      10-28-2018, 09:59 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
You check the PAD wear the same way you do for regular pads. Just examine/measure their thickness... Pad sensors are consumables as they get tripped when the pad backing plates get close enough to the rotors. Once tripped, the sensors have to be replaced. I've heard that some folks claim that changing CCB pads when they are only half used will extend the life of the CCB rotors. However, this should only have to be a consideration if you are using your car on the track.

Coincidentally, I just measured a new set of CCB Pads. The friction material is about 13mm thick on new front pads and 12mm thick on new rear pads.

If the car you are considering buying is a street car, then the CCB Rotors/Pads should last "almost forever". If its a track car, then they can burn off rather quickly...

BTW - I also just tried installing the RacingBrake CCB Iron Rotor Conversion Kit. (Iron Rotors and Track Pads to replace the CCB components - You keep the existing CCB calipers.) Lots of problems with this kit. The front "track" pads lasted less than a day and a half on the track and the backing plates were permanently deformed under brake loading. Backing plates hit the rotors without even tripping the pad sensor. Destroyed the front rotors. I have lots of photos and info. I've sent the kit back for a refund and I'll wait to see how RacingBrake handles this case before I start a new thread to document my experience... Anyway, CCB's back on the car (for now)!
I wound not buy anthing from Racing Brake.... bad customer service... had to wait forever for parts and parts are NOT GOOD...
very bad experience with them...
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      12-29-2019, 06:45 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
Are ANY of the aftermarket brake kit manufacturers (Brembo, Stoptech, AP...) offering up specific coding info for their F8X specific kits?

...are most folks (installing upgrade kits) doing nothing? ...or perhaps just using the established coding for M compound Iron brakes?
Curious why do M3-M5 owners simply customize CCBs sets with manufacturers? granted BMW pays maybe 500$ per rotor, and Porsche 350$ USD, but performance car owners are not obliged to pay the 1000% markup?
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      08-15-2020, 03:44 PM   #64
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thx everyone's contribution in this thread.

my front OEM CCB pads are roughly measured with ~7mm thickness left (~11mm at the the back), if it's 13mm for the front when new, i believe it's time for me to change the front pads.

thinking of getting the Pagid Racing RSC1 as replacement.

my front and rear CCB rotors look a bit worn too based on the physical indicators (i know from this thread that weighting them would confirm the need)
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      08-25-2020, 04:52 PM   #65
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BTW, may I know please if the brake pad wear sensors need to be replaced too given that the current pads still have a thickness of ~7mm remained (hence the sensors have not be "touched" yet)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pong View Post
thx everyone's contribution in this thread.

my front OEM CCB pads are roughly measured with ~7mm thickness left (~11mm at the the back), if it's 13mm for the front when new, i believe it's time for me to change the front pads.

thinking of getting the Pagid Racing RSC1 as replacement.

my front and rear CCB rotors look a bit worn too based on the physical indicators (i know from this thread that weighting them would confirm the need)
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      08-29-2020, 11:26 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pong View Post
BTW, may I know please if the brake pad wear sensors need to be replaced too given that the current pads still have a thickness of ~7mm remained (hence the sensors have not be "touched" yet)?
If the sensors have not beem triggered, there is no need to replace them.
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