INDustry distribution
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-06-2017, 02:46 PM   #1
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

A Cry for Help - Diagnosing a Drive Train Issue

Greetings all,

Long time (unregistered) lurker, first time poster in need of some serious help diagnosing a problem with my M4. I have searched high and low on this forum (and beyond) for anyone else who has experienced this issue (I've been to the dealership twice for the issue to no avail [they could not reproduce]) and I've found nothing. Needless to say I'm baffled and hoping I can leverage the vast knowledge and experience of the BMW and F80 community to help diagnose what's gone wrong.

The Problem
A noise (which sounds like a squeaking old mattress -see Exhibit-A for a recording) that was first noticed while I was changing gears in traffic and has progressed since then.

The Car
  • 2015 AY M4 6MT
  • ~8,600 miles (noise started at ~8,400 miles)
  • Dinan Stage 3 ECU - (installed after noise, prior was Stage 2)
  • Dinan Heat Exchanger - (installed after noise)
  • Dinan CAI
  • Dinan Exhaust
  • Dinan Suspension

*All mods (with the exception of the heat exchanger) were present on the vehicle thousands of miles prior to the first instance of the sound.

When does it occur?
  • Toggling steering wheel M 1 (All Sport+ besides steering) to M 2 setting ("non-sport" settings). Vehicle is stationary, in neutral, with foot brake engaged after 30 minutes of driving. Occurs 80% of the time. Cannot be repeated if you cycle through M 1 and M 2 repeatedly (even immediately after a cold start).
  • Lightly blipping/feathering the throttle while in 3rd gear traveling at roughly 22-28 MPH. Car must be driven for at least 20-30 minutes prior before sound occurs (operates normally before then). Sound is constant rather than isolated if throttle is continually feathered to keep in MPH range. Does not occur in any other gear or MPH range. Occurs 80% of the time.
  • Shifting from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 2nd at roughly 22-28 MPH. Car must be driven for at least 20-30 minutes as there is no sound up to this point (car changes gears normally). This is how I initially noticed the sound but it has since grown to incorporate others. Occurs 85% of the time.
  • At cold startup (25% of the time, does not trigger again if you immediately cycle startup)
  • Shifting into 1st gear from a stop - Recent development. Car must be driven for 20-30 minutes (car changes gears normally up to that point). Occurs 50% of the time

Sound Captures:
  • Exhibit A - captured while switching from M1 to M2 (car stationary in neutral)
  • Exhibit B - taken while driving with a friend
  • Exhibit D - moving away from the camera
  • Exhibit E - shifting into first gear to make a turn

Misc. Characteristics
  • No CEL tripped
  • No leaks
  • Dealership has ostensibly checked the engine bay and found no issues
  • Outside of the noise occurring in more frequently (and spreading to different aspects) the car operates normally
Instances where the noise is triggered by the clutch:
  • No loss of drive train power
  • On clutch being released
  • Clutch pedal is not sticky in its range of motion

The noise is not the...
Here's what I can rule out:
  • Clutch pedal - this can be moved in and out freely at any time (car on or off) without noise
  • Interior cabin - the noise occurs when the car is stationary and I'm intimately familiar with all the rattles.
  • Brakes - I have CCBs so I am acutely aware of the unearthly squealing they create while being applied.
  • Any manner of timing belt - Timing belts are a very distinctive sound and this not it.

Could it be...
  • The clutch - I initially believed that this was the primary culprit as the noise occurred first while switching between 2nd and 3rd gear (both up and down shift) at the specific MPH range. But why not in any other gear change (say 4th to 5th?) or any other speed?
  • The throttle - I'm now suspecting that this may be the issue due to the recent development of the sound being triggered by switching between M 1 and M 2 after being driven for 20-30 minutes. Also, lightly blipping and feathering the throttle while in 3rd gear travelling at 22-28 MPH and having the sound constantly occur over a prolonged period leads me to believe that it is not the clutch as the vehicle is already in gear. But if it's the throttle, then why doesn't it occur in any other gear or speed?
  • Suspension - the noise sounds an awful lot like a squeaky suspension but then again if that were the case, it should occur constantly, regardless of gear, speed, and quality of road surface rather than the specific 3rd gear characteristic.


Once again, any help that can be provided will really help me out as I'm at a complete and total loss what to do. Thanks again!
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 03:01 PM   #2
lukej
Lieutenant
lukej's Avatar
United_States
378
Rep
542
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4 Comp,
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Midwest

iTrader: (0)

I can't hear the sound clips ,,, maybe just my iPad,,

What out hearing it,, just a guess,, do you have the Carbon Roof?

Is coming from a misaligned joint of the carbon fiber roof?.
__________________
1."Luck" is an excuse for people that have failed at their mission to do something! (Allan McNish)

2. Iím not an (EXPERT) Iím just here with an opinion. So
donít hate me. (lukej)
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 03:04 PM   #3
smithf80
Brigadier General
smithf80's Avatar
United_States
2110
Rep
4,956
Posts

Drives: '18 F80 M3 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2018 F80 M3  [5.00]
All of your videos are set to private.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 03:21 PM   #4
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Sorry all, reset the videos so hopefully they can be viewed.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 03:57 PM   #5
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
United_States
9532
Rep
10,440
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 CS, I01 i3 REx LCI
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Your M1 to M2 toggling is the biggest tell and the easiest way to diagnose.

Reprogram your M1 to have the M Adaptive to default instead of sport. Recreate the conditions in which toggling to M2 triggers the sound. Did it happen again? If the sound disappears, then it's most likely related to your suspension. Do this a few times to make sure that the results are consistent enough to make the correlation. When you are convinced, go back to stock suspension and see if the problem goes away with M1 suspension is set to Sport+. Problem solved. Contact Dinan about replacing your parts, it's warrantied by Dinan.


If the sound doesn't go away, do the same thing for the transmission, steering, and throttle. Steering might be different for you since you are in non-sport in M1.

If you find that the throttle setting has an effect on the sound, then it might be your exhaust, or more precisely the exhaust flap that opens up the other side of the exhaust. When in efficient mode, the flap opens and closes during certain instances of throttle. It's open full time in sport or sport+ mode. Does the sound appear when in sport modes? If it does, you could rule it out since it doesn't move in those modes. Have your shop look at that exhaust and check to see that the flap is operating properly.

Anyway good luck, and if you do solve the issue please keep us informed!
__________________
2018 F80 ///M3 CS - Lime Rock Grey Metallic | MPE | MPHAS | GC Camber Plates | PFC-08
2019 I01 i3 BEV - Giga World
Previous: F80 M3 | I01 i3 Rex LCI | I01 i3 REx | F30 340i M Sport ZTR | F30 328i Sport | Audi B7 S4 25Quattro #33 of 250 | E21 320i

Last edited by jmg; 01-06-2017 at 04:02 PM..
Appreciate 6
Draper1322.50
dkhm31775.00
Kankles965.50
SSJAR24.00

      01-06-2017, 03:59 PM   #6
Msmall143
Lieutenant
264
Rep
497
Posts

Drives: BMW M4, BMW S1000RR
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Loudon VA

iTrader: (0)

rock in the dust guard?
Appreciate 1
      01-06-2017, 04:41 PM   #7
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukej View Post
I can't hear the sound clips ,,, maybe just my iPad,,

What out hearing it,, just a guess,, do you have the Carbon Roof?

Is coming from a misaligned joint of the carbon fiber roof?.

I do have a carbon fiber roof, however the sound seems to be coming from under the vehicle rather than above. A good suggestion though that I'll double check.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 04:42 PM   #8
jwzimm
Colonel
jwzimm's Avatar
United_States
648
Rep
2,770
Posts

Drives: '16 M3
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Renton, WA

iTrader: (17)

I am betting he is hearing the exhaust valves open or close when switching from efficient to sport+.
__________________
2008 Honda S2000 - Current
2016 F80 M3 - SOLD!!
2011 e92 X-Drive Coupe - SOLD!!
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 04:43 PM   #9
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Your M1 to M2 toggling is the biggest tell and the easiest way to diagnose.

Reprogram your M1 to have the M Adaptive to default instead of sport. Recreate the conditions in which toggling to M2 triggers the sound. Did it happen again? If the sound disappears, then it's most likely related to your suspension. Do this a few times to make sure that the results are consistent enough to make the correlation. When you are convinced, go back to stock suspension and see if the problem goes away with M1 suspension is set to Sport+. Problem solved. Contact Dinan about replacing your parts, it's warrantied by Dinan.


If the sound doesn't go away, do the same thing for the transmission, steering, and throttle. Steering might be different for you since you are in non-sport in M1.

If you find that the throttle setting has an effect on the sound, then it might be your exhaust, or more precisely the exhaust flap that opens up the other side of the exhaust. When in efficient mode, the flap opens and closes during certain instances of throttle. It's open full time in sport or sport+ mode. Does the sound appear when in sport modes? If it does, you could rule it out since it doesn't move in those modes. Have your shop look at that exhaust and check to see that the flap is operating properly.

Anyway good luck, and if you do solve the issue please keep us informed!
A hell of a response which is full of great information. Let me run through a couple of runs to test the variables of each M setting. I'll be out this weekend but I'll definitely report back.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 05:11 PM   #10
smithf80
Brigadier General
smithf80's Avatar
United_States
2110
Rep
4,956
Posts

Drives: '18 F80 M3 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2018 F80 M3  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwzimm View Post
I am betting he is hearing the exhaust valves open or close when switching from efficient to sport+.
Intersting thought.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 05:29 PM   #11
paliknight
fuck this field
paliknight's Avatar
United_States
2101
Rep
2,606
Posts

Drives: 18 F80 CS/18 F80 ZCP/19 M2C
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: everywhere

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Msmall143 View Post
rock in the dust guard?
thats what i initially thought he was hearing, but thats not what his videos sound like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwzimm View Post
I am betting he is hearing the exhaust valves open or close when switching from efficient to sport+.
thats strange because when i switch i dont get the noise he does.

it does sound like the suspension though.
__________________
BMW family... for now.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 05:44 PM   #12
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
United_States
9532
Rep
10,440
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 CS, I01 i3 REx LCI
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by paliknight View Post
thats what i initially thought he was hearing, but thats not what his videos sound like.


thats strange because when i switch i dont get the noise he does.

it does sound like the suspension though.
Yeah, your not supposed to hear anything like that. The only thing I hear is the exhaust just gets super loud.

Based on what the OP has told us so far, my money is on the exhaust flap with the Adaptive Suspension in second.
__________________
2018 F80 ///M3 CS - Lime Rock Grey Metallic | MPE | MPHAS | GC Camber Plates | PFC-08
2019 I01 i3 BEV - Giga World
Previous: F80 M3 | I01 i3 Rex LCI | I01 i3 REx | F30 340i M Sport ZTR | F30 328i Sport | Audi B7 S4 25Quattro #33 of 250 | E21 320i
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 05:45 PM   #13
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
United_States
9532
Rep
10,440
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 CS, I01 i3 REx LCI
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Msmall143 View Post
rock in the dust guard?
I don't think so. That sound is a lot more terrifying for some reason.
__________________
2018 F80 ///M3 CS - Lime Rock Grey Metallic | MPE | MPHAS | GC Camber Plates | PFC-08
2019 I01 i3 BEV - Giga World
Previous: F80 M3 | I01 i3 Rex LCI | I01 i3 REx | F30 340i M Sport ZTR | F30 328i Sport | Audi B7 S4 25Quattro #33 of 250 | E21 320i
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 06:00 PM   #14
SakhirM4
Major General
SakhirM4's Avatar
United_States
10455
Rep
8,821
Posts

Drives: '15 SO M4/'20 Z4 M40i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW Z4 M40i  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [4.38]
Do they not have a dealer in Seattle?
__________________
Tejas Chapter, BMW CCA, mem #23915, President 27 years, www.tejaschapter.org
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 07:17 PM   #15
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
Do they not have a dealer in Seattle?
There's a dealership in Seattle, which I've been to twice, but they could not reproduce the issue. I've just recently sent the service advisor the recordings as well and they state it's probably an issue with the brake rotor rubbing against the dust guard. The issue I'm facing as an owner who isn't super car savvy is, although I respect their input as experts, my gut doesn't think that is the issue.

*Edited to add: Of course, no disrespect to the dealership intended as it's not a straight forward issue I'm having.

Last edited by Leng8093; 01-06-2017 at 07:26 PM..
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 08:00 PM   #16
nicknaz
Lieutenant General
nicknaz's Avatar
United_States
3105
Rep
10,459
Posts

Drives: 6TT, model 3P, SM, F31 330
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NorCal

iTrader: (0)

OP, can you time it so that a tech or shop foreman rides in your car after 20-30 min of driving so you can replicate the noises right then and there? Get a nice loaner while they fix and call it a day
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 08:31 PM   #17
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
United_States
9532
Rep
10,440
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 CS, I01 i3 REx LCI
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leng8093 View Post
There's a dealership in Seattle, which I've been to twice, but they could not reproduce the issue. I've just recently sent the service advisor the recordings as well and they state it's probably an issue with the brake rotor rubbing against the dust guard. The issue I'm facing as an owner who isn't super car savvy is, although I respect their input as experts, my gut doesn't think that is the issue.

*Edited to add: Of course, no disrespect to the dealership intended as it's not a straight forward issue I'm having.
I really don't think it's a rock in the dust guard since it sound different than what I am hearing in the video. Then again, it's a video and not the best quality. Regardless, in my experience, service advisors are schedulers and customer service representatives. Their guess is not based on hands-on technical skill, but on experience with other clients and their cars. I never take their advice with any real merit. No offense to them either, but it's not their job. They are service advisors, not service technicians.


But who knows, maybe they are right? I hope they are right, because that is an easy fix.
__________________
2018 F80 ///M3 CS - Lime Rock Grey Metallic | MPE | MPHAS | GC Camber Plates | PFC-08
2019 I01 i3 BEV - Giga World
Previous: F80 M3 | I01 i3 Rex LCI | I01 i3 REx | F30 340i M Sport ZTR | F30 328i Sport | Audi B7 S4 25Quattro #33 of 250 | E21 320i
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 09:08 PM   #18
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
OP, can you time it so that a tech or shop foreman rides in your car after 20-30 min of driving so you can replicate the noises right then and there? Get a nice loaner while they fix and call it a day
100% spot on. My second visit I requested that very thing and, to the dealerships credit, they sent a foreman along for a ride who acknowledged the noise but the diagnosis and resulting scope of work (replaced a belt related to the clutch -going off memory) did not resolve the issue.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 09:08 PM   #19
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I really don't think it's a rock in the dust guard since it sound different than what I am hearing in the video. Then again, it's a video and not the best quality. Regardless, in my experience, service advisors are schedulers and customer service representatives. Their guess is not based on hands-on technical skill, but on experience with other clients and their cars. I never take their advice with any real merit. No offense to them either, but it's not their job. They are service advisors, not service technicians.


But who knows, maybe they are right? I hope they are right, because that is an easy fix.
I'm picking up what you're throwing down, buddy. Spot on.
Appreciate 0
      01-06-2017, 11:55 PM   #20
BitchinManWheels
Lieutenant
BitchinManWheels's Avatar
United_States
202
Rep
478
Posts

Drives: Dinan M4, Z4, X5, Raptor
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Shavertown, PA

iTrader: (0)

My vote is exhaust valve flap.
I have the macht schnell evc module thus able to open and close the flap at will. It is louder than most think. Yours may be extremely squeaky.
How to rule this out for sure is simply disconnect the flap motors then drive the car around and see if you can reproduce the sound.
BTW, I have the Dinan S2 with CAI, exhaust, & suspension too and I leave the valves open all the time!
__________________
"When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
Appreciate 0
      01-07-2017, 05:38 PM   #21
GrussGott
Major General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
11232
Rep
8,917
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitchinManWheels View Post
My vote is exhaust valve flap.
I have the macht schnell evc module thus able to open and close the flap at will. It is louder than most think. Yours may be extremely squeaky.
How to rule this out for sure is simply disconnect the flap motors then drive the car around and see if you can reproduce the sound.
BTW, I have the Dinan S2 with CAI, exhaust, & suspension too and I leave the valves open all the time!
yeah, like the others, my two thoughts were the exhaust flaps & suspension ... jmg has a nice trouble-shooting idea for the suspension, but I'd be tempted to try the exhaust flap first: just pull the plugs with the flaps open and see if you never hear the sound again. Easy to do and rules it out 100%.

The 20-30 "warm up" to the noise would make sense in that the parts are heating up and expanding which exacerbates the squeak.

That said, in the second video the squeak happens a few times in a row at very low RPMs and I didn't think the flaps would open/close that much with nothing else going on. (btw, I know the 6MT is different but I can't imagine driving my DCT in 3rd at ~25 MPH)

Unless those exhaust flaps open/close a hell of a lot more than seems reasonable I'm leaning towards suspension and one of the actuators/electric value-y type things: it heats up with road use, then squeaks, but when you try to cycle from M1 to M2 and back you essentially heat-lube the parts and they don't squeak anymore.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2017, 03:27 PM   #22
Leng8093
New Member
4
Rep
8
Posts

Drives: 2015 AY M4
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
yeah, like the others, my two thoughts were the exhaust flaps & suspension ... jmg has a nice trouble-shooting idea for the suspension, but I'd be tempted to try the exhaust flap first: just pull the plugs with the flaps open and see if you never hear the sound again. Easy to do and rules it out 100%.

The 20-30 "warm up" to the noise would make sense in that the parts are heating up and expanding which exacerbates the squeak.

That said, in the second video the squeak happens a few times in a row at very low RPMs and I didn't think the flaps would open/close that much with nothing else going on. (btw, I know the 6MT is different but I can't imagine driving my DCT in 3rd at ~25 MPH)

Unless those exhaust flaps open/close a hell of a lot more than seems reasonable I'm leaning towards suspension and one of the actuators/electric value-y type things: it heats up with road use, then squeaks, but when you try to cycle from M1 to M2 and back you essentially heat-lube the parts and they don't squeak anymore.
UPDATE:

Did some thorough testing yesterday (as jmg suggested - big shout out!) and, long story short, it was toggling the M throttle in anything other than "efficient" mode which causes the sound.

Specifically, what I did was drive the car around in default, non-M settings (40 minutes of driving) and, lo and behold, no sound at all, everything was perfect. Next, I went through the individual M settings and tested each in isolation against the sound producing criteria, suspension, steering, MDM -all passed except the exact moment I adjusted throttle from "efficient" to either "sport" or "sport+", bam! There it was!

Car's currently at the dealership and, after test driving with the shop forman (he didn't have an idea off the top of his head why this would be occurring), my fingers are crossed they now can squash this issue once and for all.

Big thank you for all the input and suggestions I've received from everyone! Absolutely invaluable in lending me a hand to track this issue down!

As an aside, any thoughts of what it could be in the engine that the M throttle setting adjusts (exhaust valves as was previously suggested)?
Appreciate 2
jmg9532.00
GrussGott11232.00

Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
6mt, clutch, engine, issues, noise

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST