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      08-29-2019, 02:20 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by myzmak View Post
Yeah...its a long standing problem of mine with Cadillac. I've always loathed the Escalade and I think they just brought that whole look through the whole line.

Plus...I'll admit to some issues with the Cadillac brand. Every time I see one (even CTS-V or ATS-V), I assume the driver is silver haired - have yet to be disappointed on that. I'll admit to enough vanity that I don't want people to assume that about me when they see my car.

I often wonder if GM should just start a brand new brand to try to really compete on the performance side - ditch caddy (or remove this whole line from that brand) altogether. Charge a bit more (as, ironically, when people pay less they assume it isn't as good).

F31s look nice. We don't tow anything, so that isn't an issue but as the wagon is our 'full size', that size is a bit small for us (2 kids + dog with a ton of trips to the mountains each year with skis or golf clubs or hiking stuff or whatever).

If you like the size of the F31, AMG has done the C-43 wagon here now....which maybe gives you something else that is mildly sportier.

OR if you want a larger size but don't want to pay E63 dollars, there is an E53

(though, frankly, i'm not sure the performance is that different on those two from the C400 or E400....but that leads to a WHOLE OTHER rant about how AMG is cheapening its brand by offering these 'in betweener' cars like the C43 and E43 - even worse than BMW with all the "M240i" etcs....but I really digress now)

Buddy of mine and his partner (who worked with me at the time) have 4 kids between them (from multiple past marriages - very much a brady bunch) and I tried to convince them to get and modify a sprinter a few years ago (as I seriously think that could be cool). She would barely speak to me for a month after I suggested it instead, she just got some monstrously big infinit or something
I think my issue with wagons is actually rather simple. I'm used to smaller cars. While I'm sure I can always get used to it but... I mean you don't see any young 30 year olds generally driving a car like a Panny (Panamera...) I don't think I can ever see myself in a RS6 Advant, no matter how much I like the styling.

I been saying I feel older now that I don't mind Audi styling as much unlike before. Hell, I even gotten used to seeing those damn Lexus running around.

I don't mind driving SUVs actually because after having a lowered car, it's almost heaven in able to just fucking drive over everything instead of SLOWWLY angling into everything. >.>
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      08-29-2019, 10:24 AM   #46
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The price is always going to be a tad of an issue when it comes to Audi RS cars I think. Not that they aren't good but... the way Audi prices the RS cars makes them a bit... iffy to get new.

A B9 RS5 is priced $400 MSRP below a Benz C63S Sedan AMG. In comparison to a V8 AMG or the more performance oriented M, the price of a RS5 is ridiculous. A RS3, you can price that car above a F80 M3. I'm almost afraid to even see the price of the RS6 Avant and I am fairly certain it would definitely be above the price of a F90 M5 Comp.

Enough of us love this car but... what target are you aiming for if you are pricing it this high? Just bring the damn RS4 over already.
RS3 is 65k new and 60k after discounts. What M3 costs that much new? BTW- I'm 2nd on list for RS6 at local dealer.
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      08-29-2019, 11:04 AM   #47
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My brother had an e63 wagon that he kindly lent to me whenever I visited him in a toronto (including some DEs). Cool car but definitely tough to fully max out.

Im not really going to do highway pulls to triple digits with my family and dog in the car, and would prefer to drive a more focused sports car if it’s a solo drive or track day, so e63 is sort of in a no man’s land for me.

After my brother’s ownership, a good friend bought the e63 and modded it to 700hp and he recently sold it (replaced with fast EV) since he never had enough chances to unleash the horsepower either.

The family hauler I am really interested in is the Lincoln aviator. Great towing specs and amazing mid century modern style interior. 400hp is enough for a family hauler, and competent but not sporty handling is ok.

Towing aside, I do like the size of the f31, and it’s 40mpg on the freeway (with awd) with “good enough” power. If the steering feeling was improved it would get pretty close to “perfect family hauling commuter” in my eyes.
Wait, are you saying I don't *NEED* a 600 hp grocery getter/hockey practice transport?



Yeah, it is 100% ridiculous.

....which, of course, only makes me want it that much more

Our E350 has been great for that. Has more than enough power to get us around with our gear at whatever speed I need to go. Frankly, unless you do serious tracking, nothing in the M / AMG / RS class is really necessary (or able to be fully tapped in any civilian scenario) but...I guess that is why most of us chumps spend our bucks on these cars. The illusion (delusion?) that, if I really ever needed to go 225 kph, I could. easily.

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I think my issue with wagons is actually rather simple. I'm used to smaller cars. While I'm sure I can always get used to it but... I mean you don't see any young 30 year olds generally driving a car like a Panny (Panamera...) I don't think I can ever see myself in a RS6 Advant, no matter how much I like the styling.

I been saying I feel older now that I don't mind Audi styling as much unlike before. Hell, I even gotten used to seeing those damn Lexus running around.

I don't mind driving SUVs actually because after having a lowered car, it's almost heaven in able to just fucking drive over everything instead of SLOWWLY angling into everything. >.>
I still see most SUV's on the road ahead of me studiously avoid every manhole cover on the road (dude: the ad that sold you that fucking pathfinder showed it driving up a mountain and you are worried about a fucking manhole?)

Proving my 100% absolute hypocrisy when compared to the reply I made just above to Nicknaz, one of the reasons I dislike SUVs is because there is a 0% chance that 99% of SUV owners actually use them for any of the offroading capabilities they are built/marketed to have. Nobody is fording any G.D. streams on their way into the office from suburban Atlanta.....

so the only real advantage they have is cargo capacity which, in most cases, a good wagon will meet/exceed.

Plus the SUVs drive like poop so, again, i'll take a wagon every time.

....I know i'm in the minority there...a passionate minority (as the Audi decision to bring the RS6 Avant over here shows) but definitely a minority.

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Sounds to me like a Pontiac revival, kind of what Dodge is trying to turn itself into. Pontiacs used to cost more than Chevys, would be a pretty good opportunity to bring the brand back.
Interesting idea.

I wonder, though, if GM did too much damage to the Pontiac brand? By the end, Pontiacs and Chevys were literally just rebadged versions of the same cars with Pontiacs being *mildly* more interesting to look at but often somehow feeling just a little cheaper too....

I actually think to do it GM would need a whole new performance/premium brand. After 70 years, all their other brands are too entrenched.

Saturn was a go at a new brand - and it almost worked (a few of the cars, especially at the end, were more interesting to look at) but it still suffered from a general view of "GM cheapness".

To do it right, GM would have to make the cars not cheap. No plasticky parts, no 'good enough' compromises. But make them seriously high end. If that means they cost pretty much what the germans cost, so be it. But, as I said before, low prices usually suggest (to consumers) a compromise on quality. And if you want to establish a premium brand, cheap isn't how to do it.

(good examples of car companies doing this right are Toyota/Lexus and even Hyundai/Gensisis. I can't stand Lexi or Genises (to invent new ways of pluralizing them....) but I concede that nobody is going to think either of those is anything other than a premium brand now - and they did it building OFF existing brands and by not compromising on quality and, if they had to, charging for it)

The problem with the Detroit Troika is they still want to try to make their premium cars for everyman so to achieve that price point they sacrifice too much quality, and everybody knows it.

AND to circle back: if they try to do this in an existing brand (Pontiac), well, everyone associates it with cheapness so who wants to pay german prices for a 'cheap' brand?

(case in point: as I mentioned a few posts ago, we used to have a Passat W8 wagon. 8 cylinders of fun for a LOT less than what it would cost for a BMW / Merc / Audi. BUT relative to VWs? The W8 was expensive. So it flopped. As did the Phaeton. As a co-worker/buddy of mine used to say to periodically cut me down at work: "Myz, you have a $70,000 Volkswagen...." - and there was no replying to that because nobody CARED that it was a helluva deal for what it was. The brand image of VW wouldn't support it)

Anyway, what I am saying is if any car companies want to hire a middle aged corporate litigator to re-direct his career into criticizing their branding efforts, I can be reached at......
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      08-29-2019, 02:13 PM   #48
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Frankly, unless you do serious tracking, nothing in the M / AMG / RS class is really necessary (or able to be fully tapped in any civilian scenario) but...I guess that is why most of us chumps spend our bucks on these cars. The illusion (delusion?) that, if I really ever needed to go 225 kph, I could. easily.
mymak, you need get one of these bonkers wagon at least once, and definitely take it to the track and drag race it.

talking out the other side of my mouth (from my other post where I listed all the reasons it makes no sense), I guarantee it will never get old to pull away from an older exotic car on the straights with some childseats in the back, with massage + ventilation activated in your driver seat

not to mention tearing up all sorts of sports and sporty cars doing 65-110+mph freeway pulls, and "race start" launching to the tune of big V8 sounds
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      08-29-2019, 04:46 PM   #49
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I still see most SUV's on the road ahead of me studiously avoid every manhole cover on the road (dude: the ad that sold you that fucking pathfinder showed it driving up a mountain and you are worried about a fucking manhole?)


guilty.
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      08-29-2019, 04:58 PM   #50
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RS3 is 65k new and 60k after discounts. What M3 costs that much new? BTW- I'm 2nd on list for RS6 at local dealer.
hmm you are you trolling for real?

I am not talking about MSRP. You can shove Audi cars easily 20k+ their MSRP because their packaging is the way it is and the RS3 is no different.

Not to mention, once again people love to just ignore the fact that the RS3, like the M2, is outdated interior wise. It is nowhere close to being as good of an Audi interior like the A4 and above. The current gen is also old, dating back to 2013 when the first A3 came out.

Just because the car is small and nimble (for the most part) it doesn't ignore the fact that the RS3 is based from an now rather old chassis with a Haldex AWD. Paying 60k+ for an interior built for a mid 30kish car isn't practical, no matter how good of a car the RS3 is.


For the F8x, It's easy to get under wholesale price. My current M3 was 1.5k UNDER invoice. You will be hard pressed to talk to Audi dealerships that can give you that straight up without haggling. I had to work around to my Porsche friends right next door to Audi to get my foot in. At that point, why not just get a Porsche instead when I know I can get a better car and price instead? Unlike the previous gen Panamera looking like a long loaf of bread, the new Panny looks good (as good as it can look anyway).
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      08-30-2019, 01:51 AM   #51
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hmm you are you trolling for real?

I am not talking about MSRP. You can shove Audi cars easily 20k+ their MSRP because their packaging is the way it is and the RS3 is no different.

Not to mention, once again people love to just ignore the fact that the RS3, like the M2, is outdated interior wise. It is nowhere close to being as good of an Audi interior like the A4 and above. The current gen is also old, dating back to 2013 when the first A3 came out.

Just because the car is small and nimble (for the most part) it doesn't ignore the fact that the RS3 is based from an now rather old chassis with a Haldex AWD. Paying 60k+ for an interior built for a mid 30kish car isn't practical, no matter how good of a car the RS3 is.


For the F8x, It's easy to get under wholesale price. My current M3 was 1.5k UNDER invoice. You will be hard pressed to talk to Audi dealerships that can give you that straight up without haggling. I had to work around to my Porsche friends right next door to Audi to get my foot in. At that point, why not just get a Porsche instead when I know I can get a better car and price instead? Unlike the previous gen Panamera looking like a long loaf of bread, the new Panny looks good (as good as it can look anyway).

The real selling point of the RS3 is that with just a tune and no hardware changes.... you are beating F90 M5s in the quarter mile. I think the APR stage 1 runs a 10.5.

AND they made half as many RS3s as they did M3s in the 2018 model year. Probably because they gave out F80s like candy to anyone and everyone with those lease deals. I have a feeling that although the RS3 up front cost is expensive... it will depreciate a lot less and put more money back in your pocket than an M3 when you sell it.

But i agree. The interior is pretty awful and the haldex understeer system kills the fun.
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      08-30-2019, 01:36 PM   #52
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I've noticed that these cars (E63 Wagon, RS6 Avant, etc) always have some cult following and yet no one actually buys them. Probably because they're trying to combine two opposing car philosophies into one and ending up with a mediocre car. I'd rather have an SUV/Truck and a performance car, even if it means I have to get an older/more affordable model.
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      08-30-2019, 04:52 PM   #53
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I've noticed that these cars (E63 Wagon, RS6 Avant, etc) always have some cult following and yet no one actually buys them. Probably because they're trying to combine two opposing car philosophies into one and ending up with a mediocre car. I'd rather have an SUV/Truck and a performance car, even if it means I have to get an older/more affordable model.
Well, people buy them but it is a limited market.

They used to say the E63S Wagon was the rarest model MB sold anywhere, period.

And yet I know a few dudes here who have owned them (and who love them)

Most people who love them don't because they are not cheap or something else comes up that makes it a no go - but these aren't intended to be cars that compete with every other car.

The rarity makes them somewhat more appealing, IMNSHO.
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      08-30-2019, 04:54 PM   #54
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talking out the other side of my mouth (from my other post where I listed all the reasons it makes no sense), I guarantee it will never get old to pull away from an older exotic car on the straights with some childseats in the back, with massage + ventilation activated in your driver seat
I know. The sleeper aspect of it is just killer.

(though at 12 and 14 my kids would probably object if I made them get childseats again - hell, my eldest can get her learner's license right away here....)
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      08-30-2019, 08:46 PM   #55
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....I know i'm in the minority there...a passionate minority (as the Audi decision to bring the RS6 Avant over here shows) but definitely a minority.

Well Myz.....include me in that minority. I guess growing up in Germany the appeal to wagons has always been there for me. Unfortunately, an RS6 Avant will be out of reach for me when they are released. I wish Audi would have started with something a bit smaller such as an RS4 Avant to test the market to see how it does. With that said.....Im hoping that all goes well when the RS6 is released. Personally, I would love to see more sport wagons in the US instead of huge SUVs and Trucks, but again.....I guess I’m in the minority as well.
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      09-01-2019, 01:36 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaymitch View Post
RS3 is 65k new and 60k after discounts. What M3 costs that much new? BTW- I'm 2nd on list for RS6 at local dealer.
hmm you are you trolling for real?

I am not talking about MSRP. You can shove Audi cars easily 20k+ their MSRP because their packaging is the way it is and the RS3 is no different.

Not to mention, once again people love to just ignore the fact that the RS3, like the M2, is outdated interior wise. It is nowhere close to being as good of an Audi interior like the A4 and above. The current gen is also old, dating back to 2013 when the first A3 came out.

Just because the car is small and nimble (for the most part) it doesn't ignore the fact that the RS3 is based from an now rather old chassis with a Haldex AWD. Paying 60k+ for an interior built for a mid 30kish car isn't practical, no matter how good of a car the RS3 is.


For the F8x, It's easy to get under wholesale price. My current M3 was 1.5k UNDER invoice. You will be hard pressed to talk to Audi dealerships that can give you that straight up without haggling. I had to work around to my Porsche friends right next door to Audi to get my foot in. At that point, why not just get a Porsche instead when I know I can get a better car and price instead? Unlike the previous gen Panamera looking like a long loaf of bread, the new Panny looks good (as good as it can look anyway).
Lol, say what you want. I have both the M3 and RS3 and both are 2018's, so I have first hand knowledge how much each cost MSRP and out the door. I'm not gonna get into discussions about interiors, etc. because that's all a matter of opinion. Oh and btw - your statement about adding 20k+ to the MSRP is completely false when it comes to the RS3. May be true on other Audi's but not the RS3.
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      09-02-2019, 03:22 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by NYG View Post
I've noticed that these cars (E63 Wagon, RS6 Avant, etc) always have some cult following and yet no one actually buys them. Probably because they're trying to combine two opposing car philosophies into one and ending up with a mediocre car. I'd rather have an SUV/Truck and a performance car, even if it means I have to get an older/more affordable model.
thats the best way to do it. Make your SUV roomy, comfy, full of tech... and skip on the motor and performance stuff. Save that for an actual 2 seater sports car.

I think a big reason why those niche cars dont sell is because of enthusiasts. Most will say 'yeah i'll wait for them to iron out the first year bugs, get one in 2-3 years as CPO and spend 30% less'. I'm in that camp.
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      09-14-2019, 04:13 PM   #58
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If I needed that much room, hell yes. Ditto for the old Caddy CTS-V wagon

Cheers
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      09-15-2019, 10:12 AM   #59
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The article had me until it got to price. This thing will be $120k+.
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      09-28-2019, 01:37 AM   #60
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I have one on order. Nardo grey with black interior and RS package. It will be my first Audi. This car is a monster designwise.

Something I hoped BMW would risk instead of more and more fugly or extremly boring looking cars.
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      09-28-2019, 08:55 AM   #61
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I have one on order. Nardo grey with black interior and RS package. It will be my first Audi. This car is a monster designwise.

Something I hoped BMW would risk instead of more and more fugly or extremly boring looking cars.
Hey mmic.....how long before actually delivery Date? Please post some pics once she is delivered! Vielen Dank....
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      09-28-2019, 01:54 PM   #62
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Hey GERMAN M3, estimated delivery is 02-03/2020. I will post some pics when she arrives. Really looking forward to it. Grüße
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      09-30-2019, 09:01 AM   #63
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I kind of want an RS6 sedan. Is something wrong with me?

I don't want RS7 - back end always looks funky.
Don't need a wagon... so why no sedan RS6?

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      09-30-2019, 12:17 PM   #64
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I kind of want an RS6 sedan. Is something wrong with me?

I don't want RS7 - back end always looks funky.
Don't need a wagon... so why no sedan RS6?

Audi probably knows they need the hatch utility to make the car slightly different or else people will do a head to head Perfomance comparison with m5 and e63 and the rs won’t be able to hang.

at least with rs7 and rs6 wagon you can say “but utility”
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      10-02-2019, 02:24 PM   #65
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Over 100g's for an audi...better be an R8.
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      10-02-2019, 04:42 PM   #66
iamwingman
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Drives: m4
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Virginia

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I would love to consider one. But, my 2018 s5 sportback has had electrical problems from day one. They are getting progressively annoying. It’s a lease and I’m glad it is, if I owned I would have No confidence in it. Takes audi out of running for next car. Only 14000 miles and all sorts of electric bugs. My m4 never had the first problem, big or small, when I sold it at 50,000 miles. I’m going to try out a Benz maybe. But not getting anything till 21. So it will be between refreshed e63 or refreshed m5. As of now.
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