Pandora Car Alarm System
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3/M4 versus...

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-26-2020, 08:21 AM   #23
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
13580
Rep
17,986
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
What ?????

Faster to 60mph, and that's it, due to the greater quattro launch traction. Even the articles you quote show that the M3 significantly out accelerates the RS5 from a roll: the M3 is 2 second faster than the RS5 from 60mph to 130mph, that's massive. Tough to hide those extra 350lb.
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates

Last edited by CanAutM3; 07-26-2020 at 08:33 AM..
Appreciate 0
      07-26-2020, 09:12 AM   #24
Kiefermeister
Private First Class
United_States
36
Rep
154
Posts

Drives: 335i sedan
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (4)

I have a Nardo grey 19 sport back. I went back and forth between f80 M3 and Alfa Romeo quadrofoglio, then test drove the Rs5. The car just felt much more planted and comfortable with all the creature comforts inside. It's also subjectively more sexy to me compared to the other options. And I like the most up to date model when I spend a ton on a new car, so with G series m3 on the horizon, I went with the RS5. All are great cars. Very similar in performance at least to me. I didn't thrash these cars during test drive but being an older driver and living in NE, Quattro option was very attractive to me. I have Michelin A/S 3+ on there and drive it year round. I have two kids and also own a e92 M3 which is even with its age a much more thrilling car to drive with the exhaust note and high revving engine. But the four doors make it super convenient and the Rs5 is just an incredible daily. I think a lot of people, me included don't understand all the functions and individual setting on this car and don't have it properly set up. One thing that makes the car seem quiet and non RS like is how the Audi programming defaults everything to comfort at every restart of the engine. On dynamic mode, the car really does wake up. I'm a sucker for speed from stop at red light and blowing everyone away and don't really ever get into a roll race or racing on public roads in general. I had a Jeep SRT before this and stop light to stop light stuff is what I always enjoyed blowing other cars away from the dig. So, for me, this was a great choice to complement my e92 M3. Again, perhaps because I'm older and I need to at least appear professional when I arrive at work with this car. Nice and super quiet in comfort mode and unbelievably quick on dynamic mode. It fits me.
Appreciate 4
FormulaMMM1308.50
doug_9991856.00
CanAutM313580.00
bsmf8x347.50

      07-26-2020, 10:27 AM   #25
doug_999
Brigadier General
doug_999's Avatar
1856
Rep
3,489
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3/2011 1M
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
What ?????

Faster to 60mph, and that's it, due to the greater quattro launch traction. Even the articles you quote show that the M3 significantly out accelerates the RS5 from a roll: the M3 is 2 second faster than the RS5 from 60mph to 130mph, that's massive. Tough to hide those extra 350lb.
RS5 was faster to 60 and in the quarter mile as well. And the rolling start times were the same between the two cars.

And to me, the "but I always race from a roll" or "The M3 is faster and that's a con" - silly. 1) at my age, I'm not street racing as I now understand the risk and 2) as Kiefermeister says I normally need to just get the car next to me out of the way - so the 0-30/AWD is a preferred thing for me.

But seriously, a car slightly faster or slightly slower does not make a buying decision - for me at least. Heck, I'd be in a M5 if that was the case...
__________________
2018 M3, Mineral White, 6 speed, ZCP, loaded sans CCB
2011 1M, Black loaded sans sat radio
Appreciate 2
stein_325i7650.50
bsmf8x347.50

      07-26-2020, 12:30 PM   #26
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
13580
Rep
17,986
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
RS5 was faster to 60 and in the quarter mile as well. And the rolling start times were the same between the two cars.

And to me, the "but I always race from a roll" or "The M3 is faster and that's a con" - silly. 1) at my age, I'm not street racing as I now understand the risk and 2) as Kiefermeister says I normally need to just get the car next to me out of the way - so the 0-30/AWD is a preferred thing for me.

But seriously, a car slightly faster or slightly slower does not make a buying decision - for me at least. Heck, I'd be in a M5 if that was the case...
Again, it is only a question of traction from launch due to the benefit of AWD. The M3/4 has the better power to weight ratio, which makes it the faster car once launch traction is no longer an issue (above 30mph). Look at the trap speed, 116mph vs 120mph. It all depends what one is after. The RS5 is definitely a better daily driver than the M3/4. It is biased much more towards comfort, AWD traction is a benefit for the DD and the 8AT is smoother in operation. Like I said, we owned both for a long time because we appreciate what each brand offers. My ///M also serve track duty and for that use it is way superior than the RS offerings. As a tidbit, I prefer our RS3 over our M4cs to scoot around town. And that quattro traction is nuts, it is only a matter of pressing the brakes, flooring the throttle and releasing the brakes to yield a consistent 3.5 seconds to 60mph every time. Can't do that in my M4.

I might not come back to BMW for the G8X generation because they seem to be foregoing too many things that differentatied their offering. We don't need a second "Audi" in the driveway...
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates

Last edited by CanAutM3; 07-26-2020 at 12:38 PM..
Appreciate 1
      07-26-2020, 12:37 PM   #27
doug_999
Brigadier General
doug_999's Avatar
1856
Rep
3,489
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3/2011 1M
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

CanAutM3 , agreed - if they had made the RS-5 interior a touch nicer, I probably would consider it - at the right price.

ohhh, I wonder if the comfort access works on the rear doors... that could sway me
__________________
2018 M3, Mineral White, 6 speed, ZCP, loaded sans CCB
2011 1M, Black loaded sans sat radio
Appreciate 1
CanAutM313580.00

      07-26-2020, 12:39 PM   #28
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
13580
Rep
17,986
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefermeister View Post
I have a Nardo grey 19 sport back. I went back and forth between f80 M3 and Alfa Romeo quadrofoglio, then test drove the Rs5. The car just felt much more planted and comfortable with all the creature comforts inside. It's also subjectively more sexy to me compared to the other options. And I like the most up to date model when I spend a ton on a new car, so with G series m3 on the horizon, I went with the RS5. All are great cars. Very similar in performance at least to me. I didn't thrash these cars during test drive but being an older driver and living in NE, Quattro option was very attractive to me. I have Michelin A/S 3+ on there and drive it year round. I have two kids and also own a e92 M3 which is even with its age a much more thrilling car to drive with the exhaust note and high revving engine. But the four doors make it super convenient and the Rs5 is just an incredible daily. I think a lot of people, me included don't understand all the functions and individual setting on this car and don't have it properly set up. One thing that makes the car seem quiet and non RS like is how the Audi programming defaults everything to comfort at every restart of the engine. On dynamic mode, the car really does wake up. I'm a sucker for speed from stop at red light and blowing everyone away and don't really ever get into a roll race or racing on public roads in general. I had a Jeep SRT before this and stop light to stop light stuff is what I always enjoyed blowing other cars away from the dig. So, for me, this was a great choice to complement my e92 M3. Again, perhaps because I'm older and I need to at least appear professional when I arrive at work with this car. Nice and super quiet in comfort mode and unbelievably quick on dynamic mode. It fits me.
Exactly, it all depends what one is after. I am also of the opinion that the RS4/5 are better daily drivers than the M3/4.
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates
Appreciate 2
bsmf8x347.50
GERMAN M32118.00

      07-26-2020, 10:12 PM   #29
bsmf8x
Captain
United_States
348
Rep
967
Posts

Drives: F82
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: NY

iTrader: (1)



If you know anything about acceleration, you know that for that m4 to catch up and create a gap between the rs5 that quickly after being so far behind due to a bad launch it has to be significantly faster than the rs5. If they both hit it on a 30 roll the m4 would be gone, which is more likely what would happen in the real world. But again we all enjoy different things if you like launching then get the rs5, but know that after 40 it won't pull as hard as an m4.

I'm not big into street racing but power and acceleration matters to me so to think that a 6 year old F8x can still destroy Audi's newest and best is mind boggling. Again, the rs5 makes the better daily but the Dct m4 definitely feels significantly faster in the car than an rs5. But if 0-30 matters to you more then yeah get the rs5. I think an M4 with comp pack and carbon m performance parts especially in an individual car is way more of a neck breaker than an rs5, but stock for stock the rs5 is sexier.
Appreciate 2
CanAutM313580.00

      07-26-2020, 10:32 PM   #30
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
13580
Rep
17,986
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by murdrdf82 View Post


If you know anything about acceleration, you know that for that m4 to catch up and create a gap between the rs5 that quickly after being so far behind due to a bad launch it has to be significantly faster than the rs5. If they both hit it on a 30 roll the m4 would be gone, which is more likely what would happen in the real world. But again we all enjoy different things if you like launching then get the rs5, but know that after 40 it won't pull as hard as an m4.

I'm not big into street racing but power and acceleration matters to me so to think that a 6 year old F8x can still destroy Audi's newest and best is mind boggling. Again, the rs5 makes the better daily but the Dct m4 definitely feels significantly faster in the car than an rs5. But if 0-30 matters to you more then yeah get the rs5. I think an M4 with comp pack and carbon m performance parts especially in an individual car is way more of a neck breaker than an rs5, but stock for stock the rs5 is sexier.
And yet, drag racing is not really what the M3/4 are about. This is what they are about and they really shine at it :
Attached Images
 
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates
Appreciate 1
bsmf8x347.50

      07-27-2020, 08:41 AM   #31
JoeFromPA
Colonel
1647
Rep
2,967
Posts

Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SE PA

iTrader: (0)

2.5 months ago I purchased a 2008 911 turbo 6mt (997.1 for those who know). 480hp and either 460 tq or 505tq for 10 seconds in overboost mode. For what it's worth, this car stock has a quarter mile of roughly 12.0 seconds/119-120mph, about the same as a DCT m3/m4 (remember, the 997.1 is a 6mt).

Further, it's stock 60-130 time as CanAutM3 uses is about 8.5 seconds. By comparison, I'm having some difficulty finding a stock f8x 60-130 time but it appears to be 10.5-11.5 seconds. So I'm just posting this by comparison.

...

I'm sharing that background because I found two things going from m3 to 997.1:

1. I always had traction issues in the m3. 6 months of the year it's cold or wet here, so it was traction compromised. And the other 6 months it was still traction challenged. That's gone with AWD.

2. The m3 was right at the border of power I could ring out in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears on public roads. The 997.1 is well beyond that. I can't truly enjoy ringing this car out on public roads....it's too fast, literally in terms of speed yielded and in terms of how quickly it comes to those speeds. And this car is stock....a tune usually brings it to 550hp on an AWD platform.

My point here is simple....there are many wonderful reasons to consider the rs5 and f8x m3. Outright maximum speed on regular roads seems to be actually matched well between the two....and the experience along the way and ability to deliver that speed routinely in YOUR PERSONAL ENVIRONMENT should matter a lot.
__________________
AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
Appreciate 4
CanAutM313580.00
FormulaMMM1308.50
doug_9991856.00
ZCD1166.50

      07-27-2020, 09:47 AM   #32
SMGCFP
Lieutenant
SMGCFP's Avatar
United_States
362
Rep
405
Posts

Drives: '20 F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cohoes, NY

iTrader: (0)

I test drove the RS5 before I leased another F82, a 2020. We have a nice S turn on ramp in town here and I thought the RS5 had body roll compared to the M4. I also thought the brakes did not grab as well. The Audi has a lot going on inside with the gadgets I thought. Maybe it was my unfamiliarity with the car compared to the M4. The price was also a factor. Others have stated how well the BMW's lease. The Audi salesperson told me "it's because BMW subsidizes their leases". Who cares? Tell me why the Audi is worth $3-400 more a month. I went back to the M4.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 11:02 AM   #33
Leftkeylife
Banned
53
Rep
65
Posts

Drives: Manual
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: The track

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
2.5 months ago I purchased a 2008 911 turbo 6mt (997.1 for those who know). 480hp and either 460 tq or 505tq for 10 seconds in overboost mode. For what it's worth, this car stock has a quarter mile of roughly 12.0 seconds/119-120mph, about the same as a DCT m3/m4 (remember, the 997.1 is a 6mt).

Further, it's stock 60-130 time as CanAutM3 uses is about 8.5 seconds. By comparison, I'm having some difficulty finding a stock f8x 60-130 time but it appears to be 10.5-11.5 seconds. So I'm just posting this by comparison.

...

I'm sharing that background because I found two things going from m3 to 997.1:

1. I always had traction issues in the m3. 6 months of the year it's cold or wet here, so it was traction compromised. And the other 6 months it was still traction challenged. That's gone with AWD.

2. The m3 was right at the border of power I could ring out in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears on public roads. The 997.1 is well beyond that. I can't truly enjoy ringing this car out on public roads....it's too fast, literally in terms of speed yielded and in terms of how quickly it comes to those speeds. And this car is stock....a tune usually brings it to 550hp on an AWD platform.

My point here is simple....there are many wonderful reasons to consider the rs5 and f8x m3. Outright maximum speed on regular roads seems to be actually matched well between the two....and the experience along the way and ability to deliver that speed routinely in YOUR PERSONAL ENVIRONMENT should matter a lot.
I have seen an M4 Convertible do 60-130 in 12.2 second so, I'd think around 11.5 for a stock M3/M4 would be about right considering the weight difference.

I really like the RS5, it is a great looking car from my POV. Interior is also very posh looking/feeling. To me, almost like a Germen GT-R and sounds like one too.

Last edited by Leftkeylife; 07-27-2020 at 11:51 AM..
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 11:18 AM   #34
ZCD1
Second Lieutenant
ZCD1's Avatar
167
Rep
276
Posts

Drives: 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chi-town

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
...My point here is simple....there are many wonderful reasons to consider the rs5 and f8x m3. Outright maximum speed on regular roads seems to be actually matched well between the two....and the experience along the way and ability to deliver that speed routinely in YOUR PERSONAL ENVIRONMENT should matter a lot.
Hear hear.

Bench racing has its place, but raw speed is only one aspect of any car - the overall experience is more important to most actual owners in the long run.
Appreciate 1
doug_9991856.00

      07-27-2020, 11:43 AM   #35
doug_999
Brigadier General
doug_999's Avatar
1856
Rep
3,489
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3/2011 1M
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefermeister View Post
I have a Nardo grey 19 sport back. I went back and forth between f80 M3 and Alfa Romeo quadrofoglio, then test drove the Rs5. The car just felt much more planted and comfortable with all the creature comforts inside....
Question - one of the videos posted showed a very slow kick down (and yes, I suspect maybe not in dynamic mode). Alas, nothing bothers me more than a car that is not responsive. When I press the gas, I need the car to GO. I do remember my 650GC and many times I would push the gas down and the car would be like "wait a minute please, kind of thinking..oh, OK, let's go". That drove me nuts.

So how responsive is that auto? (and yes, technically the same trans (I think) as my 650 had...). Just hoping it is tuned better.
__________________
2018 M3, Mineral White, 6 speed, ZCP, loaded sans CCB
2011 1M, Black loaded sans sat radio
Appreciate 1
      07-27-2020, 02:47 PM   #36
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
13580
Rep
17,986
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftkeylife View Post
I have seen an M4 Convertible do 60-130 in 12.2 second so, I'd think around 11.5 for a stock M3/M4 would be about right considering the weight difference.

I really like the RS5, it is a great looking car from my POV. Interior is also very posh looking/feeling. To me, almost like a Germen GT-R and sounds like one too.
According to this C&D test, the M3 CP managed 10.6 seconds 60-130mph (14.6s-4.0s=10.6s)

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...e-test-review/
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 03:15 PM   #37
Leftkeylife
Banned
53
Rep
65
Posts

Drives: Manual
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: The track

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
According to this C&D test, the M3 CP managed 10.6 seconds 60-130mph (14.6s-4.0s=10.6s)

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...e-test-review/
I was going for more real world times v. the 'zine times.

Here is one I was able to find later.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1348258

This one happens to be 11.6 on a stock car with ZCP tuning (I guess you could call that ZCP for the most part).
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 03:42 PM   #38
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
13580
Rep
17,986
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftkeylife View Post
I was going for more real world times v. the 'zine times.

Here is one I was able to find later.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1348258

This one happens to be 11.6 on a stock car with ZCP tuning (I guess you could call that ZCP for the most part).
Funny, I trust more the professional 'nize times than the ones from a random guy on a Frankenstein tune...
__________________
///M4cs 2019 F82 Lime Rock Grey
MPE / CF Mirror caps / MP-HAS / GC Camber plates
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 04:16 PM   #39
Leftkeylife
Banned
53
Rep
65
Posts

Drives: Manual
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: The track

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Funny, I trust more the professional 'nize times than the ones from a random guy on a Frankenstein tune...
Touche.

I sometimes feel like the 'zines beat on cars to a level where their results are a bit faster than what you'd typically see. At least we have a reasonable ballpark.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 05:39 PM   #40
JoeFromPA
Colonel
1647
Rep
2,967
Posts

Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SE PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftkeylife View Post
Touche.

I sometimes feel like the 'zines beat on cars to a level where their results are a bit faster than what you'd typically see. At least we have a reasonable ballpark.
They often post results that folks in the real world struggle to duplicate because no mag wants to be the one who poses a 4.0 second 0-60 while others post 3.5 second, etc.

The reasons are simple: The mag would struggle to explain it, automakers would complain, and internet 'zine braggers would focus on the best
__________________
AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 06:24 PM   #41
doug_999
Brigadier General
doug_999's Avatar
1856
Rep
3,489
Posts

Drives: 2018 M3/2011 1M
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Well unfortunately this has turned into a which car is faster thread - kind of a bummer cause I think we can all agree, nobody agrees on what "faster" really means

That said, C&D Is one of the magazines that adjusts for temperature and climate. R&T (I think) was famous for not doing that and would actually report the ambient temp when they did the testing. So at the end of the day, I think C&D is the most reliable - still, as you can see by their article posted, there are often differences in the same car (one M3 runs faster than the other). But that happens in real life too. I suspect it is with how it is broken in - but OMG, let's not get on that topic!

__________________
2018 M3, Mineral White, 6 speed, ZCP, loaded sans CCB
2011 1M, Black loaded sans sat radio
Appreciate 1
stein_325i7650.50

      07-27-2020, 06:34 PM   #42
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2566
Rep
4,685
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

I am really strongly looking at an RS5 as my next car.

Snowy environment and AWD, check

If the G8X didn't look like a bucktooth disaster, I would consider the xDrive version.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2020, 11:32 PM   #43
Leftkeylife
Banned
53
Rep
65
Posts

Drives: Manual
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: The track

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
I am really strongly looking at an RS5 as my next car.

Snowy environment and AWD, check

If the G8X didn't look like a bucktooth disaster, I would consider the xDrive version.
While I agree the new M4 styling is revolting, I am interested to see what they are going to do to try to differentiate the new Awd M4 from the RS5 because to me, it will only become more like one than less. Heavier, ZF8, similar hp and torque, similar size.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2020, 12:10 AM   #44
Jockey
Brigadier General
Jockey's Avatar
United_States
2566
Rep
4,685
Posts

Drives: F80 SS/SS M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Park City, UT

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leftkeylife View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
I am really strongly looking at an RS5 as my next car.

Snowy environment and AWD, check

If the G8X didn't look like a bucktooth disaster, I would consider the xDrive version.
While I agree the new M4 styling is revolting, I am interested to see what they are going to do to try to differentiate the new Awd M4 from the RS5 because to me, it will only become more like one than less. Heavier, ZF8, similar hp and torque, similar size.
Quattro is better than xDrive.

And the Audi has a superior design both inside and out.

The RS5 and G8X xDrive version will be similarly priced too. So why should I pay the same amount of money for something I'm embarrassed to look at?

I have no doubt the G8x will be the better driver's car but by how much? Probably not enough to offset all the negatives.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:54 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST