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      07-28-2020, 07:27 AM   #45
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Quattro is better than xDrive.

And the Audi has a superior design both inside and out.

The RS5 and G8X xDrive version will be similarly priced too. So why should I pay the same amount of money for something I'm embarrassed to look at?

I have no doubt the G8x will be the better driver's car but by how much? Probably not enough to offset all the negatives.
I'm not aware of any objective standard by which today's quattro is better than today's x-drive. Care to elaborate?
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      07-28-2020, 07:47 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Quattro is better than xDrive.

And the Audi has a superior design both inside and out.

The RS5 and G8X xDrive version will be similarly priced too. So why should I pay the same amount of money for something I'm embarrassed to look at?

I have no doubt the G8x will be the better driver's car but by how much? Probably not enough to offset all the negatives.
Likely considerably better in certain contexts, but the window of experiential advantage, and the audience who will access those dynamic advantages, are narrowing.

M cars have become more ordinary (engines), competition has caught up.

Exclude hard driving contexts in which the M car shines, I'd need a day driving both in my area to decide between F80 and RS 5 Sportback. Something about the latter. Super practical, cool, subtly aggressive, sort of has a modern E39 M5 quality in my eyes.

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      07-28-2020, 08:48 AM   #47
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I'm not aware of any objective standard by which today's quattro is better than today's x-drive. Care to elaborate?
Splitting hairs considering the systems in isolation. The packaging of the rest of the car makes the difference.

They've evolved Quattro to create more playfulness over the years, but the fundamental character is still the same. S/RS models understeer, upside is straight-ahead traction and stability. You'd have it just trying to get home in a blizzard.

xDrive is intended to mimic the rwd driving experience. Even F30 335i xDrive was a tail out snow drift machine. Could be driven conservatively with the systems engaged, but turn tc off and it went absolutely sideways.

M xDrive offers/will offer the same experience, potential for driving fun. Quattro models to date don't offer the same. Not to mention, you can make the M xDrive car rwd on demandÖ M xDrive M3/M4 ≠ Quattro RS 5. I can see opting for the RS car, but not because of awd and dynamic driving equivalence.
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      07-28-2020, 09:18 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Likely considerably better in certain contexts, but the window of experiential advantage, and the audience who will access those dynamic advantages, are narrowing.

M cars have become more ordinary (engines), competition has caught up.

Exclude hard driving contexts in which the M car shines, I'd need a day driving both in my area to decide between F80 and RS 5 Sportback. Something about the latter. Super practical, cool, subtly aggressive, sort of has a modern E39 M5 quality in my eyes.

There is something very special looking about the RS5, especially in Sportback guise, isn't there? Really fantastic design all around.
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      07-28-2020, 12:04 PM   #49
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I'm not aware of any objective standard by which today's quattro is better than today's x-drive. Care to elaborate?
FormulaMMM covered it quite well.

Having driven multiple AWD systems, Audi, Subaru, BMW, two of those felt like real AWD systems while the third felt like a RWD system masquerading as an AWD system. Personally, they might be what you're looking for though.

Me, if I'm going to deal with the weight of an AWD system, I want it to act like an AWD system.
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      07-28-2020, 12:50 PM   #50
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Quote:
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FormulaMMM covered it quite well.

Having driven multiple AWD systems, Audi, Subaru, BMW, two of those felt like real AWD systems while the third felt like a RWD system masquerading as an AWD system. Personally, they might be what you're looking for though.

Me, if I'm going to deal with the weight of an AWD system, I want it to act like an AWD system.
I prefer a RWD biased AWD system. I think the RWD conversion is cool, but rather useless and adds weight and complexity for what equates to nothing more than a party trick from my POV.
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      07-28-2020, 01:42 PM   #51
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I'm not aware of any objective standard by which today's quattro is better than today's x-drive. Care to elaborate?
One word: Torsen

That center diff technology has been the keystone to the power of Quattro since inception. But it has to be said that the BMW xDrive has significantly closed the gap in recent years, as demonstrated in this video:

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      07-28-2020, 01:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
FormulaMMM covered it quite well.

Having driven multiple AWD systems, Audi, Subaru, BMW, two of those felt like real AWD systems while the third felt like a RWD system masquerading as an AWD system. Personally, they might be what you're looking for though.

Me, if I'm going to deal with the weight of an AWD system, I want it to act like an AWD system.
Ok so to be clear FormulaMMM basically outlined why the BMW system gives the owner a superior set of options and experiences, especially for those with a sporting tendency, and you've gone back to the subjective "if that's what you are looking for..."

I'm fine with your response, I just to want to be clear you started by saying, "Quattro is better than xDrive." and are now saying you like the way it drives better.

Totally fine, just two different sentences.

Personally I like my AWD to give me a little tail wiggle when I hit the gas hard mid corner or corner exit as the rear breaks traction a tad and the front grabs hard. I like that feeling. But I'd be the first to say I find Audi Quattro superb, balanced, and more invisible and given equal tires I'd feel great in Audi, BMW, or Subaru in any wintry conditions. With Subaru being the least technically advanced of those, but their classic 50/50 AWD being frigging amazing.
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      07-28-2020, 01:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Likely considerably better in certain contexts, but the window of experiential advantage, and the audience who will access those dynamic advantages, are narrowing.

M cars have become more ordinary (engines), competition has caught up.

Exclude hard driving contexts in which the M car shines, I'd need a day driving both in my area to decide between F80 and RS 5 Sportback. Something about the latter. Super practical, cool, subtly aggressive, sort of has a modern E39 M5 quality in my eyes.

That picture was taken in Montreal
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      07-28-2020, 01:52 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Ok so to be clear FormulaMMM basically outlined why the BMW system gives the owner a superior set of options and experiences, especially for those with a sporting tendency, and you've gone back to the subjective "if that's what you are looking for..."

I'm fine with your response, I just to want to be clear you started by saying, "Quattro is better than xDrive." and are now saying you like the way it drives better.

Totally fine, just two different sentences.

Personally I like my AWD to give me a little tail wiggle when I hit the gas hard mid corner or corner exit as the rear breaks traction a tad and the front grabs hard. I like that feeling. But I'd be the first to say I find Audi Quattro superb, balanced, and more invisible and given equal tires I'd feel great in Audi, BMW, or Subaru in any wintry conditions. With Subaru being the least technically advanced of those, but their classic 50/50 AWD being frigging amazing.
The center torsen diff in RS cars is built with 40/60 front/rear torque split, which gives it a RWD feel. Stomp on the throttle in the snow, and you get a nice sideway drift. What kills the Audis IMO is that they are built on FWD architectures, which makes them nose heavy and understeering pigs at the limit. IMO, it is more a question of chassis balance than of AWD technology.
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      07-28-2020, 03:43 PM   #55
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That picture was taken in Montreal
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What kills the Audis IMO is that they are built on FWD architectures, which makes them nose heavy and understeering pigs at the limit. IMO, it is more a question of chassis balance than of AWD technology.
Yep. 3 years with a B6 S4. You'd have that nose in 18" of lake effect snow and not any other time. Could have run a plowing business with the thing. Probably come a long way since then, but push and Audi still gonna Audi.

Still appreciated it for what it could do, and the 6 disc changer was $. You don't need more than 6 music options at once.
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      07-28-2020, 04:48 PM   #56
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I just find certain posts extremely amusing when I read M3/M4 is significantly faster etc. It really isn't. And if you really think so then, you are just watching youtube and haven't driven one and just making up the story to make yourself feel better about owning a F80. I get it. This is a BMW forum after all. But on dynamic mode or manual mode, I'm sure my RS5 could keep up and surprise a few drivers out there. Besides, last time I floored it, I was already over 100mph on the turnpike. It's plenty quick on legal roads and it's a joy to drive when you want it to be in comfort. So, it is what it is and it's not for everyone. I can tell you F80 probably outsells RS5 by 5 to 1 margin. RS5 is also much more exclusive if I may add whether it's because of the price or being slower in a roll to M3s. But I go months without seeing another RS5. I like that.

But I'm always onto the next best thing I can afford. lol. Hopefully, I get into a Porsche or the G series M3 next. I actually love the new grill design. Very bold and different.

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      07-28-2020, 04:58 PM   #57
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Do you know every manhole cover??
Nope, but the public transit colour scheme is telling
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      07-28-2020, 05:56 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
FormulaMMM covered it quite well.

Having driven multiple AWD systems, Audi, Subaru, BMW, two of those felt like real AWD systems while the third felt like a RWD system masquerading as an AWD system. Personally, they might be what you're looking for though.

Me, if I'm going to deal with the weight of an AWD system, I want it to act like an AWD system.
Ok so to be clear FormulaMMM basically outlined why the BMW system gives the owner a superior set of options and experiences, especially for those with a sporting tendency, and you've gone back to the subjective "if that's what you are looking for..."

I'm fine with your response, I just to want to be clear you started by saying, "Quattro is better than xDrive." and are now saying you like the way it drives better.

Totally fine, just two different sentences.

Personally I like my AWD to give me a little tail wiggle when I hit the gas hard mid corner or corner exit as the rear breaks traction a tad and the front grabs hard. I like that feeling. But I'd be the first to say I find Audi Quattro superb, balanced, and more invisible and given equal tires I'd feel great in Audi, BMW, or Subaru in any wintry conditions. With Subaru being the least technically advanced of those, but their classic 50/50 AWD being frigging amazing.
Having raced a few Subarus and gotten to drive some Audis hard, I found them to be more similar than different. Both were very predictable. The BMW was the outlier. Again, seems different philosophies for AWD.

Being used to a Subaru/Audi type, I consider those the benchmark. It's what I grew up with.
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      07-28-2020, 10:23 PM   #59
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CanAutM3 I'm curious since you tends to know your Audi's, has your family considered the new S4?
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      07-28-2020, 10:46 PM   #60
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CanAutM3 I'm curious since you tends to know your Audi's, has your family considered the new S4?
Actually, that's what we were going in to buy. My wife's B7 S4 was starting to age and needed to be replaced. We skipped over the B8 because we really did not like how it drove vs the V8 B7 (the B7 S4 was a competitor to the E46 M3 in those days before the RS). When we test drove the B9 S4, we found it big and rather soulless. We then saw the small RS3 in the showroom and decided to take it for a spin, we both fell in love with how it drove. Plus that I-5 sounded like total bonkers. And to my surprise, in terms of size, the wheelbase was within 0.7" of the B7, while the B9 was over 7" longer than the B7. We then test drove the RS5. It felt much more luxurious and upscale than the RS3, but it felt slower, heavy, muted and not as fun to drive, so we settled for the RS3.

We are now seriously ogling the RS6 Avant though
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      07-30-2020, 10:09 PM   #61
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I wouldn't mind to lease the RS5 but you get two X3M Competition for one RS5

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      07-31-2020, 11:29 AM   #62
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I wouldn't mind to lease the RS5 but you get two X3M Competition for one RS5

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/Rc7MfZ2/Screenshot-20200730-190643.jpg[/IMG]
That's exactly my problem with Audi's in general.

I'm not even sure if a 2019 left on lots would be any better.
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      07-31-2020, 02:44 PM   #63
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That's a leasing byproduct, isn't it? I'm not disagreeing in a lease vs. lease comparison, just basically making the observation that that's purely a difference in lease programs. Their actual depreciation is fairly similar to my knowledge.
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      07-31-2020, 04:20 PM   #64
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That's a leasing byproduct, isn't it? I'm not disagreeing in a lease vs. lease comparison, just basically making the observation that that's purely a difference in lease programs. Their actual depreciation is fairly similar to my knowledge.
I donít think other companies push leases in the same manner BMW does. BMWs lease extremely well due to inflated residuals, low money factors, good incentives, and large discounts. At the same time, the cars are usually worth way less than the residual at the end of the lease period. On the flip side, I think companies like Audi use low residuals but you are more likely to have equity by the end of the lease period.
My wife and I decided to try to buy another f80 m3, however in looking at 4 different vehicles now, they either donít age well (Only had my f80 m3 for roughly 5 months) or the previous owners were lessors who treated did not treat the cars well.
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      08-05-2020, 07:41 AM   #65
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If you plan on keeping this long term, one thing to consider is Audi's virtual-axis 4 link front suspension.

It's complex, and puts the majority of the front subframes load onto the top links, so their bushings tend to go weak every 30,000 miles and really starts to feel messy after 40,000 miles. Budget front-end replacements every 35,000 miles.

From personal experience with North/South engines modern Audi's.

Also, Audi is seriously discounting these. My bud picked his 87k RS5 SB for 73k without haggling.
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      08-05-2020, 08:46 AM   #66
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Also, Audi is seriously discounting these. My bud picked his 87k RS5 SB for 73k without haggling.
Must be. New Sportback inventory has dropped from just under 200 2 weeks ago to under 50 now nationwide. Lot of green ones, etc. remaining.
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